looking for help reconciling the Sabbath with common observation?

[TMS]

I do enjoy your posts. And (most times) I agree with you.

However here I don't believe Jesus was crucified on a Friday.
The numbers just don't add up.
Even if you go with the unbiblical premise that a small portion of a day (or a night) could be considered to be a full day (or night) you still come up short one day and one night.

Jesus said in Matt 12:40 "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

So 3 days and 3 nights must be accounted for from time He was buried to the time He was resurrected.
Take a look at it:

Friday day (even if it was still an hour or 2 before sunset?) - 1 day
Friday night - 1 night
Saturday day - 2nd day
Saturday night - 2nd night

It wasn't even sunrise yet when the women (with the spices and ointments) came to the sepulcher to find out the tomb was already open. Jesus had already been raised.

So where is the 3rd day and night?

I know this is off topic from the OP but I can expound on this more if you wish. Just let me know.
It will make for a longer post than this one.

It is okay... this subject has been debated for a long time.

But I'll say it like this...

Day 1 = Friday.
Day 2 = sabbath
Day 3 = Sunday.

"three days and three nights" is a Hebrew idiom where a part of a day is counted as a whole day. This rule is applied in both biblical and business transactions.

Command therefore that the sepulcher be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say to the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.— Matthew 27:64

The timing of these events perfectly matches the Jewish sanctuary types
.

The Passover Lamb: As the antitype of the Passover lamb, Christ was sacrificed on the 14th day of the first month at 3 P.M., the exact time the lamb was to be slain Exodus 12:6

The Wave Sheaf.... The wave sheaf of first fruits was offered on the morrow after the Sabbath, which was the 16th day of the month Leviticus 23:11. In perfect fulfillment, Jesus rose on that very day as the "first fruits of them that slept" 1 Corinthians 15:20.

Attempting to require exactly seventy-two hours would contradict the many passages stating He rose on the third day.

No matter which days you put 72 hours is impossible... He did late in the afternoon. And rose early in the morning.

It isn't really savational.. We agree mostly

 

[TMS]

NOT what it said.....
You are going BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN.
Thats crap Satan would do and has done.

"LOVE IS THE FULLFILLMENT OF THE LAW"
that's what it says.....that's all it says. Nothing more.

Why you trying to add to God's word as if you are God...
You are not.

Jas 2:8-12
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Psa 119:163-165
163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love. 164 Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments. 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

1Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

 

[TMS]

Knowing that a testament or will or covenant can not be changed or altered after the death of the testator.

When did Jesus enforce Sunday or remove the 4th commandment?

 

[TMS]

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Churchgoer]

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In the midst of the week, Jesus was stained, correct?
What happened after midst of the week? Regarding below.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

 

[Davidstarr]

It is okay... this subject has been debated for a long time.

But I'll say it like this...

Day 1 = Friday.
Day 2 = sabbath
Day 3 = Sunday.

"three days and three nights" is a Hebrew idiom where a part of a day is counted as a whole day. This rule is applied in both biblical and business transactions.

Command therefore that the sepulcher be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say to the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.— Matthew 27:64

The timing of these events perfectly matches the Jewish sanctuary types
.

The Passover Lamb: As the antitype of the Passover lamb, Christ was sacrificed on the 14th day of the first month at 3 P.M., the exact time the lamb was to be slain Exodus 12:6

The Wave Sheaf.... The wave sheaf of first fruits was offered on the morrow after the Sabbath, which was the 16th day of the month Leviticus 23:11. In perfect fulfillment, Jesus rose on that very day as the "first fruits of them that slept" 1 Corinthians 15:20.

Attempting to require exactly seventy-two hours would contradict the many passages stating He rose on the third day.

No matter which days you put 72 hours is impossible... He did late in the afternoon. And rose early in the morning.

It isn't really savational.. We agree mostly

I agree, it's not a salvation issue which day He died or how long He stayed dead.
The important issue is that He DID die for our sins, was resurrected and ascended with the commission to spread the gospel message and there was a promise given that He would return.

I still think it is important to have the actual facts straight surrounding His death.

A part of this is to examine the God-given specifications of the original Passover celebration found in Exo 12.
The Israelites were told exactly what to do (and why). I think they would have been extremely intent on obeying (to the letter) exactly what God told them to do in order to save the lives of their firstborn.

There are two main differences I can think of between the original Passover and the Last Supper:
1) The Israelites put the blood on their doorposts as a sign/mark/seal for the angel of death to see so he would "pass over" that house. Hence the name "Passover".
There is no record in scripture I can think of when blood was put on the posts during any succeeding Passover.
2) The Israelites were commanded to eat the meal quickly, standing up with their shoes on their feet, loins girded and staff in hand, ready to flee. Most likely (given 4 days to prepare for what they knew was coming) they had some bags packed, wagons loaded and hitched up, ready to flee Egypt quickly.
But at the Last Supper they sat down to eat.

On a side note Passover was given at about 1500 years or so before Jesus was crucified, God's only Son. And on the original Passover all the 1st born in Egypt died. This was a "dated" holiday.

Anyway back to Exo 12:
On the first month of the year (which is Nisan - AKA Adib or Abib) the 10th day of the month a yearling lamb (or kid - the two are interchangeable) was to be separated from the flock. Most likely taken into the house.
At the beginning of Nisan 14 the lamb was killed, it's blood placed on the doorposts and then spit roasted on an open fire.
On the same day the unleavened bread was made and the bitter herb sop.
But then at sunset (the beginning of Nisan 15) the meal was eaten.

Matt 26:17-19 was on Nisan 14.
Beginning in Matt 26:20 (at sunset) it was the beginning of Nisan 15

Nisan 15 is a "dated" holiday (roughly around the beginning of the 3rd week of April in our Gregorian calendar) and would fall NEVER on the same day of the week year after year.
So which day of the week did Nisan 15 fall on in the year 31AD, the year our Lord was crucified?
It was on a Wednesday. This information is easy to find.

Now consider this scenario:

Nisan 15 (Wednesday) - crucified between the 3rd and 9th hours. But how long before they realized He was dead? How long before they had to take all 3 down from the crosses before sunset? There were only about 3 hours left from the time Jesus died until sunset.
Yet people want to claim (without any biblical authority BTW) that these few hours should be considered to be a full 12 hour period of daylight?

Anyway:
Nisan 16 (Wednesday night and the beginning of the "High" sabbath) - Jesus in the tomb - 1st "full" NIGHT
Nisan 16 (Thursday's daylight hours) - 1st DAY
Nisan 17 (Thursday night - The beginning of the preparation day on the 6th day of the week) - 2nd NIGHT
Nisan 17 (Friday's daylight hours) - 2nd DAY
Nisan 18 (Friday night and the beginning of the 7th day sabbath) - 3rd NIGHT
Nisan 18 (Saturday's daylight hours) - 3rd DAY

This gives the full 3 days and nights of Jesus being in the tomb. Before sunrise on Sunday He had already risen.

 

[Journey_man]

when did Sunday become the Lords day?

When did the old covenant get set in place and by what process?
It was started at Mt. Sinai. And how was it ratified? = By the sprinkling of the blood of an ox.

How was the New Covenant ratified?
By the blood of Christ, The death of Christ on the Cross.

Now read Hebrews 9:16, 17 and Galatians 3:15
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

A will or covenant can not be changed when the person dies. do you agree that the New Covenant did not go into effect until after Christ died, and nothing can be added or taken away after He ratified it on the cross.

When did Sunday-keeping begin?

How could Sunday keeping be a part of the New Covenant? If nothing could be added after the death of Christ and He died on Friday and was resurrected on Sunday. If Sunday was added after Jesus died, it could never be a part of the New Covenant.

where did Jesus add sunday to the New covenant laws?

On Thursday night Jesus added the foot washing and ordinances.. even thou He had not died. But He knew He could not add them after His death.

Sunday became the Lords Day, when the Lord Jesus Christ fully accepted, authorized, and ordained the transition from the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday (the Lord's Day).
This change was not an arbitrary or independent human decision made by the Apostles. Rather, it was a divinely appointed change initiated by Christ’s resurrection and established through the apostolic authority given to them by Christ Himself.

Jesus explicitly declared Himself to be the "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mark 2:28). Because He is the Master of the institution, He possesses the ultimate authority to alter, reshape, or fulfill it for His redemptive purposes. The shift from the seventh day to the first day of the week represents the supreme exercise of His lordship.

Sunday keeping (worship on the first day of the week) began in the 1st century, with early Christians gathering on Sunday to commemorate Jesus Christ’s resurrection and following the apostolic pattern of meeting on the "first day of the week" (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2).

There are no new covenant laws, the new covenant is not based on law keeping. The moral principle of the fourth commandment (setting aside one day in seven for rest and worship) remains perpetual, the specific day was changed from the seventh day (Saturday) to the first day (Sunday) by apostolic authority and early church tradition following the resurrection.

The Lord Jesus tasted death for a couple of days, but He never died because God is immortal and Jesus is Jehovah God, the Creator and Sustained of everything that exists.

 

[JohnDB]

Jas 2:8-12
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Psa 119:163-165
163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love. 164 Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments. 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

1Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

The LAWS OF THE NEW COVENANT NOT THE OLD COVENANT...
That's what is commanded of us.

Do you even know the commandments of Jesus for the New Covenant?
Like can you even list them? There is no organized list in the New Testament....you have to know what Jesus said.
Or
Are you stuck on the Old Covenant and acting like you are special?

 

[JohnDB]

There are no new covenant laws,

This is not true....

 

[JohnDB]

Psychologists created a test with schoolyard playgrounds.

They put a fence around one
No fence around the other.

Children and teachers remained the same....

The children played next to the schoolhouse when there was no fence.
But
The children played next to the fence when there is one.

These Saturday/sabbath people are trying to create a fence out of whole cloth.

 

[OMC]

Sunday became the Lords Day, when the Lord Jesus Christ fully accepted, authorized, and ordained the transition from the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday (the Lord's Day).
This change was not an arbitrary or independent human decision made by the Apostles. Rather, it was a divinely appointed change initiated by Christ’s resurrection and established through the apostolic authority given to them by Christ Himself.

Jesus explicitly declared Himself to be the "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mark 2:28). Because He is the Master of the institution, He possesses the ultimate authority to alter, reshape, or fulfill it for His redemptive purposes. The shift from the seventh day to the first day of the week represents the supreme exercise of His lordship.

Sunday keeping (worship on the first day of the week) began in the 1st century, with early Christians gathering on Sunday to commemorate Jesus Christ’s resurrection and following the apostolic pattern of meeting on the "first day of the week" (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2).

There are no new covenant laws, the new covenant is not based on law keeping. The moral principle of the fourth commandment (setting aside one day in seven for rest and worship) remains perpetual, the specific day was changed from the seventh day (Saturday) to the first day (Sunday) by apostolic authority and early church tradition following the resurrection.

The Lord Jesus tasted death for a couple of days, but He never died because God is immortal and Jesus is Jehovah God, the Creator and Sustained of everything that exists.

Brother, you're making several claims that Scripture itself never actually makes.
Jesus is indeed "Lord of the sabbath" (Mark 2:28), but nowhere does He say, "I am changing the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day."
Acts 20:7 describes a gathering on the first day of the week, and 1 Corinthians 16:2 speaks of setting aside a collection, but neither passage states that Sunday replaced the Sabbath.
If Christ intended such a covenantal change, where is the command?
Where is the declaration?
Where is the apostolic instruction to keep Sunday as the new Sabbath?
Scripture never provides one.
Instead, Paul says, "Let no man therefore judge you... in respect of... the sabbath days" (Col. 2:16-17) and "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike" (Rom. 14:5).
Those statements do not sound like a newly established Christian Sabbath law.
Furthermore, saying the moral principle remains while the specific day changed is an inference imposed upon the text, not a teaching drawn directly from it.
Finally, your statement that Christ "never died" contradicts the repeated testimony of Scripture.
Paul says "Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15:3), was buried, and rose again the third day (1 Cor. 15:4).
The divine nature did not cease to exist, but the incarnate Son truly died according to His humanity.
Scripture proclaims a real death and a real resurrection, not merely the appearance of death.
We should be careful not to elevate theological conclusions above what is actually written.
Where Scripture speaks, let us speak; where Scripture is silent, let us not be dogmatic.

 

[JohnDB]

Brother, you're making several claims that Scripture itself never actually makes.
Jesus is indeed "Lord of the sabbath" (Mark 2:28), but nowhere does He say, "I am changing the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day."
Acts 20:7 describes a gathering on the first day of the week, and 1 Corinthians 16:2 speaks of setting aside a collection, but neither passage states that Sunday replaced the Sabbath.
If Christ intended such a covenantal change, where is the command?
Where is the declaration?
Where is the apostolic instruction to keep Sunday as the new Sabbath?
Scripture never provides one.
Instead, Paul says, "Let no man therefore judge you... in respect of... the sabbath days" (Col. 2:16-17) and "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike" (Rom. 14:5).
Those statements do not sound like a newly established Christian Sabbath law.
Furthermore, saying the moral principle remains while the specific day changed is an inference imposed upon the text, not a teaching drawn directly from it.
Finally, your statement that Christ "never died" contradicts the repeated testimony of Scripture.
Paul says "Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15:3), was buried, and rose again the third day (1 Cor. 15:4).
The divine nature did not cease to exist, but the incarnate Son truly died according to His humanity.
Scripture proclaims a real death and a real resurrection, not merely the appearance of death.
We should be careful not to elevate theological conclusions above what is actually written.
Where Scripture speaks, let us speak; where Scripture is silent, let us not be dogmatic.

But...
Let's not be ignorant of history either....

The Bible never tells us how the Temple was destroyed....but a mosque sits where the Temple used to.
Should we claim that the Temple never was destroyed? Or somehow claim the Temple was elsewhere?

 

[OMC]

But...
Let's not be ignorant of history either....

The Bible never tells us how the Temple was destroyed....but a mosque sits where the Temple used to.
Should we claim that the Temple never was destroyed? Or somehow claim the Temple was elsewhere?

Brother, that comparison does not really work.
We know the Temple was destroyed because Scripture explicitly prophesied it ("There shall not be left here one stone upon another," Matt. 24:2), and history records that destruction.
History confirms what Scripture already said would happen.

 

[JohnDB]

Brother, that comparison does not really work.
We know the Temple was destroyed because Scripture explicitly prophesied it ("There shall not be left here one stone upon another," Matt. 24:2), and history records that destruction.
History confirms what Scripture already said would happen.

Right....
But just because its not recorded or prophesied in scripture doesn't mean it didn't happen or is not significant....

The Pan Temple in Cesarea Phillipi being a prominent example. If you know about the Roman Temple and the Roman thoughts about the spring then Peter's Confession of Christ story in Matthew is highly more relevant than a flat reading of scripture provides.

Scripture is scripture....it tells of truths not otherwise revealed by this world. But it does not mean that truth does not exist outside of scripture.

And that's why we don't believe in Sola scriptura but instead scriptura primera.

You know how to read because someone taught you to recognize the alphabet. Those truths are not listed whatsoever in scripture....

 

[rrcn]

Sunday became the Lords Day, when the Lord Jesus Christ fully accepted, authorized, and ordained the transition from the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday (the Lord's Day).
This change was not an arbitrary or independent human decision made by the Apostles. Rather, it was a divinely appointed change initiated by Christ’s resurrection and established through the apostolic authority given to them by Christ Himself.

Jesus explicitly declared Himself to be the "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mark 2:28). Because He is the Master of the institution, He possesses the ultimate authority to alter, reshape, or fulfill it for His redemptive purposes. The shift from the seventh day to the first day of the week represents the supreme exercise of His lordship.

Sunday keeping (worship on the first day of the week) began in the 1st century, with early Christians gathering on Sunday to commemorate Jesus Christ’s resurrection and following the apostolic pattern of meeting on the "first day of the week" (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2).

There are no new covenant laws, the new covenant is not based on law keeping. The moral principle of the fourth commandment (setting aside one day in seven for rest and worship) remains perpetual, the specific day was changed from the seventh day (Saturday) to the first day (Sunday) by apostolic authority and early church tradition following the resurrection.

The Lord Jesus tasted death for a couple of days, but He never died because God is immortal and Jesus is Jehovah God, the Creator and Sustained of everything that exists.

I don’t think your reasoning is valid. The Catholic Church tried to change the Sabbath to the first day of the week, Sunday which was the pagan day of worship of the Sun god.

[Mat 12:8 KJV] – 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

 

[JohnDB]

I don’t think your reasoning is valid. The Catholic Church tried to change the Sabbath to the first day of the week, Sunday which was the pagan day of worship of the Sun god.

[Mat 12:8 KJV] – 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

No...

Again....it was the 11+1 Apostles who authorized the change of day....

Where that Latin term "Catholic" means general or widespread....and in the strictest meaning of that word was true....
The concept of denominations in the early church are incorrect. There was only one denomination as Christianity was only maybe 5% of the population until Constantine's Empire acknowledged it and promoted it.

And since Jews had most of the banks....Sunday worship to access the banks on the way to church was common. It wasn't until Constantine, who moved Sunday back one day, that caused everyone to finally worship on the same day. (That week got no saturday)
The Jews were too legalistic to stop worshipping on the real Sabbath which was now in truth on Sunday.

History matters.

 

[Davidstarr]

But...
Let's not be ignorant of history either....

The Bible never tells us how the Temple was destroyed....but a mosque sits where the Temple used to.
Should we claim that the Temple never was destroyed? Or somehow claim the Temple was elsewhere?

The bible DOES tell us how both Solomon's temple AND Herod's temple would be destroyed.

Plenty of references in the OT about Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon coming and destroying Jerusalem and Solomon's temple.
Later (during the Persian period) a 3rd temple was built. This same temple still stood in Jesus' day and was called Herod's temple. He had made some renovations or an added section or some such thing then named it after himself.

Jesus prophesied to His disciples that not one stone will be left on top of another.
Then in Luke 21 Jesus gave a prophecy concerning Jerusalem being surrounded by armies with instructions to flee.

 

[Davidstarr]

No...

Again....it was the 11+1 Apostles who authorized the change of day....

Where that Latin term "Catholic" means general or widespread....and in the strictest meaning of that word was true....
The concept of denominations in the early church are incorrect. There was only one denomination as Christianity was only maybe 5% of the population until Constantine's Empire acknowledged it and promoted it.

And since Jews had most of the banks....Sunday worship to access the banks on the way to church was common. It wasn't until Constantine, who moved Sunday back one day, that caused everyone to finally worship on the same day. (That week got no saturday)
The Jews were too legalistic to stop worshipping on the real Sabbath which was now in truth on Sunday.

History matters.

Please show definitive biblical evidence that the apostles authorized a change from Saturday to Sunday.

Take your time. I'll wait but I won't hold my breath.

 

[OMC]

Right....
But just because its not recorded or prophesied in scripture doesn't mean it didn't happen or is not significant....

The Pan Temple in Cesarea Phillipi being a prominent example. If you know about the Roman Temple and the Roman thoughts about the spring then Peter's Confession of Christ story in Matthew is highly more relevant than a flat reading of scripture provides.

Scripture is scripture....it tells of truths not otherwise revealed by this world. But it does not mean that truth does not exist outside of scripture.

And that's why we don't believe in Sola scriptura but instead scriptura primera.

You know how to read because someone taught you to recognize the alphabet. Those truths are not listed whatsoever in scripture....

Brother, I agree that truth exists outside of Scripture.
The existence of Caesarea Philippi, the Temple, Roman customs, geography, languages, and history are all examples of legitimate knowledge that help us understand the biblical text more fully.
My position is not that Scripture is the only source of truth.
My position is that Scripture is the only infallible authority for establishing doctrine.

 

[ScooterJackson]

truth exists outside of Scripture.

Not according to Jesus

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)