A Case for Not Reading The Bible Literally

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Too often congregants are required to read the bible literally, at least in all the “places that count.” Often this requirement is the fundamental means of “group faith” indoctrination, protection and border policing. Each denomination, creed, statement of faith and catechism is based on a “unique and literal” methodology of reading the Bible where it supports the groups predetermined and unique “faith” i.e. Dogmas. This is not reading the Bible literally. It is reading the Bible conformationally.

There are between 200 – 1,500 separate Christian religions in North America. All require that their unique brand of literal reading of the Bible “proof text” supports their belief that they alone legitimately understand of the Bible. Thus, taking the Bible literally is failing to take the Bible seriously. Reading it literally and seriously are two different things.

The very nature of the Bible’s comprehensive literary genres making literal reading a barrier to Biblical value.

• Historical Narrative: Stories and records of past events, making up more than half of the Bible (e.g., Genesis through Esther, and Acts). All are written through ancient human eyes.

• Poetry: Creative, imagery-rich writing that expresses human emotion (e.g., Psalms and Song of Solomon).

• Law (Covenant Law): Legal codes and religious rules given to ancient Israel (e.g., parts of Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy).

• Wisdom Literature: Practical advice and principles for everyday life (e.g., Proverbs and Ecclesiastes).

• Prophecy: Messages, warnings, and visions delivered from God through a prophet (e.g., Isaiah Jeremiah and the minor prophets).

• Gospels: Unique biographical narratives focusing on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John).

• Epistles (Letters): Correspondence written by apostles to early churches or individuals to provide doctrine and instruction to the people of his time about the issues of his time.

• Apocalyptic Literature: Highly symbolic and visionary writings regarding the struggles against evil forces and future restoration (e.g., Revelation and parts of Daniel).

• Parables: Short stories or analogies used to teach a spiritual or moral lesson, common in Jesus' ministry.

These various literary genres each take a serious approach but not necessarily a literal approach. Each must be understood differently. When in Psalms it says "Then shall all the trees of the wood sing for joy" before the Lord. Then later, “Let the rivers clap their hands; let the hills sing for joy together." To read this literally, you would have to believe that trees can sing and rivers have hands. Jesus said, “I am the vine…” but we do not expect grapes from Jesus.

It is very strange that those who demand a literal meaning of every word in the New Testament also work very hard to deny something they don’t like is true. In Matthew, Mark and Luke Jesus encounters a religiously righteous young man who passes Jesus’s test of being “righteous” but fails when Jesus tells him he must sell everything he has, give it to the poor and follow him. The young man goes away sorrowful because he was rich. Today millions of Christians believe their faith will make them rich, if they give what they have to the church…Large Christian churches have multi-million-dollar annual budgets which provides little money for the needy in their community.

Reading the Bible seriously means we must turn off our filters, assumptions and ancient doctrines. It has been my experience in reading and rereading the bible, that if I do not find discomfort, exposure and humility in every book, I may be slipping into confirmation
(Robin)
There be a strawman or two in your critique of those reading the scriptures literally! It is true, that idioms, and compound Greek words, and hapax instances are troublesome .. it is also very true that there are serious questions about which source texts (and variants) are to be used ...But, in reading over your so-called objections to a literal reading, I did not see any factual points to the ... rant?

Perhaps if. you were to give us a couple specific examples of where the literal reading is troublesome ... where it causeds people to not take the scriptures seriously; where people misunderstand Figures of speech are being literal, and then join the wrong church?
.
Yes ... the literal reading has its problems ... but to just discount the process of being literal, accomplishes nothing ... For instance your example about the "trees singing" ... I mean really, do you actually know of anyone in particular that has heard an oak singing about its nuts? The hills are alive ... and moved into the city for better breakfasts! What does "reading the Bible seriously" really mean to you?

Be specific!!!
 
I believe that the Bible should be read literally except for those parts which are clearly picture language. For example, Jesus said that He is the door, the true vine, and the good Shepherd. However, He obviously was not claiming to have hinges and a handle, or to produce literal grapes on His literal branches, or to care for literal, four-legged sheep.
(Robin)
I see that your posts quotes:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8 NKJV)

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως, καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν·θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· (RP2026)
2:8* τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι { διὰ τῆς RP HF F35 TR OC ♦ διὰ TH SBL NA SR WH }
πίστεως, καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν·θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

That is, the NKJV appears to follow the critical text readings of the TH SBL NA SR and WH ...
that is, it omits the definite article before ... tEs pisteOs ...of~the [one] {3588 T-GSF} of~a~trust {4102 N-GSF}
Critical texts omit the definite article because they prioritize older Alexandrian manuscripts (such as Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus), which lack the article. By contrast, the Byzantine/Textus Receptus tradition includes the article ... notice that both
the TR and OC include the article ... and yet, your version of choice is the New King James Version ... interesting don't you think?

If the article is really suppose to be present (as in the Textus Receptus), it is most likely an anaphoric article. ....it points back to a previously mentioned concept to make it specific; however, the Greek word for "faith" (I prefer the word of "trust") does not
actually appear anywhere in the preceding verses of chapter 2 ... therefore, if the article is anaphoric, it would have to be referring back to the ... concept ...
the concept of the believers' response to the evangel in the preceding discussion of being made alive together with Christ.

I have compiled my own reading of the 10 Pauline epistles (and the three Pastorals), but have built my translations around the critical greek text of the RP20226 Byzantine Textform (RP)... which in this case matches that of the HF, F35, OC and TR ... I would have liked to find something more specific for the anaphoric article to point back at ... but, nevertheless kept it in my Greek, because the Alexandrian leaning critical texts really did not present any real factual reasons for not doing so?

Faith or Trust ... which English word choice? There is an on-going topic discussion about this elsewhere ... I hope it is on-going, as I am heavely invested in using the word "trust" whereas the one countering this, is of the opiniomn that "trust" does not fully equate to the Greek word... in my opinion it does, so I am hoping that that particluar conversation will continue, because I am looking to learn what other English words might be used? ... I'm rambling ... sorry!

Anyway, here is my translation of this verse ... I was hoping that I might interest you in a conversation ... put your reading up against my reading and we could discuss the differences... who knows it might be fun, and perhaps rewarding?


“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8 NKJV)
"For, with~the grace you are, having had been delivered through the trust; and this [matter], not out of~you, [but] the gratuity of~God"

unto~the [one] {3588 T-DSF} for {1063 CONJ} unto~a~grace {5485 N-DSF} you are {1510 V-PAI-2P} having had been delivered{4982 V-RPP-NPM} through {1223 PREP} of~the [one] {3588 T-GSF} of~a~trust {4102 N-GSF} and {2532 CONJ} this [thing]{3778 D-NSN} not {3756 PRT-N} out {1537 PREP} of~you {1473 P-2GP} of~a~God {2316 N-GSM} the [thing] {3588 T-NSN} a~gratuity {1435 N-NSN}
 
That makes them ripe for deception



Yeah it's so simple that one has to get help to misunderstand it, which the devil is providing through organized religion which follows the wisdom of man rather than the Wisdom of God
It's all about not reading the scriptures for themselves.
Acts 17:11 tells us it is best to study for ourselves DAILY to make sure what we are being taught is the truth.
 
(Robin)
There be a strawman or two in your critique of those reading the scriptures literally! It is true, that idioms, and compound Greek words, and hapax instances are troublesome .. it is also very true that there are serious questions about which source texts (and variants) are to be used ...But, in reading over your so-called objections to a literal reading, I did not see any factual points to the ... rant?

Perhaps if. you were to give us a couple specific examples of where the literal reading is troublesome ... where it causeds people to not take the scriptures seriously; where people misunderstand Figures of speech are being literal, and then join the wrong church?
.
Yes ... the literal reading has its problems ... but to just discount the process of being literal, accomplishes nothing ... For instance your example about the "trees singing" ... I mean really, do you actually know of anyone in particular that has heard an oak singing about its nuts? The hills are alive ... and moved into the city for better breakfasts! What does "reading the Bible seriously" really mean to you?

Be specific!!!
First of all. I am not against literal means in the New Testament. But understanding the book of John for instance introduces an entirely new and original context for Jesus. The "I am" sayings are both literal and poetic leveraging late onset Greek infatuation with the word logos.

When Jesus says "if you see me, you see the father." If literal it means God looks exactly like a 33 yr old Jesus. On the other hand, if my son said "if you know me, you know my father" we would not image the person talking to you believes that he and his father were literally the same person.

When Jesus says "Pluck Out Your Eye or Cut Off Your Hand" (Matthew 5:29–30; Mark 9:43–47) — Rather than commanding actual self-mutilation, Jesus used extreme hyperbole to show the seriousness of sin and the urgent need to cut off bad habits at their root. I know of nobody who reads this literally. Hate Your Father and Mother (Luke 14:26) - literally? Jesus said Eat My Flesh and Drink My Blood (John 6:53–56) is accepted as a literal command by over 50% of Christians and "symbolic" by the other 50%. But when Jesus said Let the Dead Bury Their Dead (Matthew 8:21–22) everyone agrees this is not literal, but why?
Some read Trampling Serpents and Scorpions (Luke 10:19) as a literal universal statement.

Be Perfect as Your Heavenly Father Is Perfect (Matthew 5:48) is generally read as hyperbole. Some weave Calvinist theology into it. (God made the saved "perfect" before the earth was created," thus using it as a literal meaning.
Passages in Genesis, Psalms, and Job describe a flat Earth surrounded by a solid dome (firmament) holding back upper waters, with celestial bodies set directly into that dome. Apologists struggle over whether to read this as a non-literal "phenomenological view" (how the sky looks to a human observer) or as ancient mythological science that the text actually assumed.

The Song of Songs (Song of Solomon) features explicit, uninhibited erotic love poetry between lovers. For centuries, this forced rabbis and church fathers to allegorize every line into an abstract symbol of God's love for Israel or Christ's love for the Church just to make the plain text palatable.

Scholars debate whether Gospel writers utilized accepted ancient Greco-Roman literary devices (such as telescoping events, rearranging chronological orders like John moving the temple cleansing, or compressing dialogue). Apologists split sharply: some (like Mike Licona) argue these were standard ancient compositional conventions, while others (like Dr. Lydia McGrew) panic that admitting to any flexible chronological arrangement ruins inerrancy and turns history into fiction

Statements like Jesus saying "I thirst" in John's Gospel or dramatic dying declarations create friction between interpreters who view every single syllable as a strictly transcribed tape-recording versus those who recognize heightened theological symbolism and structural framing.

Parables and Similes: Jesus frequently taught using parables—extended stories or similes using everyday earthly scenarios (like a sower, a shepherd, or a hidden treasure) to convey spiritual or moral truths. These are universally recognized by mainstream theologians as figurative rather than historical events. Whereas the parable of the fig tree and the burning of the unfruitful while deemed metaphoric still invokes chills.

Books like Revelation and Daniel use dense, bizarre animal symbolism, cosmic catastrophes, and scaled-up numbers that defy a simple newspaper-headline style of literal forecasting. Thus, each denomination interprets these two books as an unagreed upon mixture of symbology, metaphor, apocryphal meaning and future imaginingings. It was not until the 1830's that the End Days theology was invented but is now widely believed and is the foundational identity to a wide swath of denominational and non-denomination theology.

"He who believes and is baptised will be saved" statement by Jesus results in major denominations and their spun off non-denominational clones totally reject the literal meaning of this statement by Jesus. Why? Because it violates a perception that Martin Luther had that no physical action means anything to your salvation. Today, we cover our fears by baptising only people already "saved." A clear prioritization of creed over both the literal and figurative understanding of the verse.

Then there is the Prosperity Gospel based on literal understandings of key biblical verses. 52% of Protestant churchgoers report hearing messages that financial/charity giving brings God's blessing, 45% believe they must perform specific actions to earn material blessings, and 76% believe God explicitly wants them to prosper financially. There are plenty of literal biblical interpretations that are driving this trend.

Martin Luther's original proposition that one can come to salvation simply by reading the bible (absent James, Jude and Revelation) has proven a poison pill to Christian unity, harmony, witness and effectiveness. For people under the age of 50, Christianity in North America is a thing of the past. Millions have fled all connection with the "church." Across the major denominations perhaps as many as 40 million Americans have left or stopped attending Christian and other religious institutions, coinciding with a drop in the U.S. Christian population from roughly 90% down to between 62% and 65%. The percentage of religiously unaffiliated Americans (known as "nones") grew sharply from about 6% in 1990 to roughly 28% to 29%. he share of mainline Protestants plummeted from over 50% in the late 1950s down to about 10%.. Over the last 20 years, the number of Christian bookstores in America dropped from roughly 7,000 to around 1,800, meaning over 5,200 stores have closed. Religion remains the largest recipient of charitable dollars overall ($151.58 billion), but its total share of American philanthropy has dropped to 24.6%, down from roughly half of all charitable dollars in the 1990s. This means that while a church's total annual revenue might look healthy, the middle class of donors is shrinking. Nearly 37% of regular churchgoers donate nothing at all, leaving local church budgets vulnerable if a handful of major donors who will relocate or retire, with experts projecting that 100,000 churches may close or be repurposed over the next decade.

I mention these statistics as a means of being real about the impact and effect of the way Christianity is playing out in North America. We have hundreds to thousands of competing and often bitterly competing Christianities being marketed. Each has their unique identity established by their unique understanding of the bible and thus Jesus and God. It is not working.
 
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(Robin)
I see that your posts quotes:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8 NKJV)

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως, καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν·θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· (RP2026)
2:8* τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι { διὰ τῆς RP HF F35 TR OC ♦ διὰ TH SBL NA SR WH }
πίστεως, καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν·θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

That is, the NKJV appears to follow the critical text readings of the TH SBL NA SR and WH ...
that is, it omits the definite article before ... tEs pisteOs ...of~the [one] {3588 T-GSF} of~a~trust {4102 N-GSF}
Critical texts omit the definite article because they prioritize older Alexandrian manuscripts (such as Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus), which lack the article. By contrast, the Byzantine/Textus Receptus tradition includes the article ... notice that both
the TR and OC include the article ... and yet, your version of choice is the New King James Version ... interesting don't you think?

If the article is really suppose to be present (as in the Textus Receptus), it is most likely an anaphoric article. ....it points back to a previously mentioned concept to make it specific; however, the Greek word for "faith" (I prefer the word of "trust") does not
actually appear anywhere in the preceding verses of chapter 2 ... therefore, if the article is anaphoric, it would have to be referring back to the ... concept ...
the concept of the believers' response to the evangel in the preceding discussion of being made alive together with Christ.

I have compiled my own reading of the 10 Pauline epistles (and the three Pastorals), but have built my translations around the critical greek text of the RP20226 Byzantine Textform (RP)... which in this case matches that of the HF, F35, OC and TR ... I would have liked to find something more specific for the anaphoric article to point back at ... but, nevertheless kept it in my Greek, because the Alexandrian leaning critical texts really did not present any real factual reasons for not doing so?

Faith or Trust ... which English word choice? There is an on-going topic discussion about this elsewhere ... I hope it is on-going, as I am heavely invested in using the word "trust" whereas the one countering this, is of the opiniomn that "trust" does not fully equate to the Greek word... in my opinion it does, so I am hoping that that particluar conversation will continue, because I am looking to learn what other English words might be used? ... I'm rambling ... sorry!

Anyway, here is my translation of this verse ... I was hoping that I might interest you in a conversation ... put your reading up against my reading and we could discuss the differences... who knows it might be fun, and perhaps rewarding?


“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8 NKJV)
"For, with~the grace you are, having had been delivered through the trust; and this [matter], not out of~you, [but] the gratuity of~God"

unto~the [one] {3588 T-DSF} for {1063 CONJ} unto~a~grace {5485 N-DSF} you are {1510 V-PAI-2P} having had been delivered{4982 V-RPP-NPM} through {1223 PREP} of~the [one] {3588 T-GSF} of~a~trust {4102 N-GSF} and {2532 CONJ} this [thing]{3778 D-NSN} not {3756 PRT-N} out {1537 PREP} of~you {1473 P-2GP} of~a~God {2316 N-GSM} the [thing] {3588 T-NSN} a~gratuity {1435 N-NSN}
Looking at your translation, I think the more interesting discussion is not actually the presence or absence of the article, but what Paul means by the entire phrase.
Even if we grant the Byzantine reading with τῆς πίστεως ("the faith"/"the trust"), the central point remains that salvation is by grace through faith, and that the whole saving arrangement is not from ourselves but is God's gift.
The article may make the noun more definite, but it does not substantially alter Paul's argument.

As for "faith" versus "trust," I think "trust" captures an important aspect of πίστις, namely reliance upon Christ, but I am not convinced it exhausts the term.
In Paul's letters, πίστις can refer to personal trust, faithful allegiance, belief, or even the body of Christian faith depending on context. That is why many translations retain "faith." It is broader and leaves room for the various nuances Paul employs.

Regarding the variant itself, I would hesitate to make too much of it.
Whether the article is original or not, the doctrine of the passage does not rise or fall on that detail.
This is where I return to a principle I mentioned before: the clearer and more numerous passages should guide our understanding. Paul repeatedly teaches salvation by God's grace through faith in Christ throughout his letters.
Therefore, any reading of Ephesians 2:8 that turns the focus away from God's gracious action and places it primarily on man's contribution would have to contend with the broader testimony of Scripture.
The variant is worth discussing, but it is not large enough to overturn the mountain of clear passages speaking to the same subject.
 
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Reactions: RWRiley
First of all. I am not against literal means in the New Testament. But understanding the book of John for instance introduces an entirely new and original context for Jesus. The "I am" sayings are both literal and poetic leveraging late onset Greek infatuation with the word logos.

When Jesus says "if you see me, you see the father." If literal it means God looks exactly like a 33 yr old Jesus. On the other hand, if my son said "if you know me, you know my father" we would not image the person talking to you believes that he and his father were literally the same person.

When Jesus says "Pluck Out Your Eye or Cut Off Your Hand" (Matthew 5:29–30; Mark 9:43–47) — Rather than commanding actual self-mutilation, Jesus used extreme hyperbole to show the seriousness of sin and the urgent need to cut off bad habits at their root. I know of nobody who reads this literally. Hate Your Father and Mother (Luke 14:26) - literally? Jesus said Eat My Flesh and Drink My Blood (John 6:53–56) is accepted as a literal command by over 50% of Christians and "symbolic" by the other 50%. But when Jesus said Let the Dead Bury Their Dead (Matthew 8:21–22) everyone agrees this is not literal, but why?
Some read Trampling Serpents and Scorpions (Luke 10:19) as a literal universal statement.

Be Perfect as Your Heavenly Father Is Perfect (Matthew 5:48) is generally read as hyperbole. Some weave Calvinist theology into it. (God made the saved "perfect" before the earth was created," thus using it as a literal meaning.
Passages in Genesis, Psalms, and Job describe a flat Earth surrounded by a solid dome (firmament) holding back upper waters, with celestial bodies set directly into that dome. Apologists struggle over whether to read this as a non-literal "phenomenological view" (how the sky looks to a human observer) or as ancient mythological science that the text actually assumed.

The Song of Songs (Song of Solomon) features explicit, uninhibited erotic love poetry between lovers. For centuries, this forced rabbis and church fathers to allegorize every line into an abstract symbol of God's love for Israel or Christ's love for the Church just to make the plain text palatable.

Scholars debate whether Gospel writers utilized accepted ancient Greco-Roman literary devices (such as telescoping events, rearranging chronological orders like John moving the temple cleansing, or compressing dialogue). Apologists split sharply: some (like Mike Licona) argue these were standard ancient compositional conventions, while others (like Dr. Lydia McGrew) panic that admitting to any flexible chronological arrangement ruins inerrancy and turns history into fiction

Statements like Jesus saying "I thirst" in John's Gospel or dramatic dying declarations create friction between interpreters who view every single syllable as a strictly transcribed tape-recording versus those who recognize heightened theological symbolism and structural framing.

Parables and Similes: Jesus frequently taught using parables—extended stories or similes using everyday earthly scenarios (like a sower, a shepherd, or a hidden treasure) to convey spiritual or moral truths. These are universally recognized by mainstream theologians as figurative rather than historical events. Whereas the parable of the fig tree and the burning of the unfruitful while deemed metaphoric still invokes chills.

Books like Revelation and Daniel use dense, bizarre animal symbolism, cosmic catastrophes, and scaled-up numbers that defy a simple newspaper-headline style of literal forecasting. Thus, each denomination interprets these two books as an unagreed upon mixture of symbology, metaphor, apocryphal meaning and future imaginingings. It was not until the 1830's that the End Days theology was invented but is now widely believed and is the foundational identity to a wide swath of denominational and non-denomination theology.

"He who believes and is baptised will be saved" statement by Jesus results in major denominations and their spun off non-denominational clones totally reject the literal meaning of this statement by Jesus. Why? Because it violates a perception that Martin Luther had that no physical action means anything to your salvation. Today, we cover our fears by baptising only people already "saved." A clear prioritization of creed over both the literal and figurative understanding of the verse.

Then there is the Prosperity Gospel based on literal understandings of key biblical verses. 52% of Protestant churchgoers report hearing messages that financial/charity giving brings God's blessing, 45% believe they must perform specific actions to earn material blessings, and 76% believe God explicitly wants them to prosper financially. There are plenty of literal biblical interpretations that are driving this trend.

Martin Luther's original proposition that one can come to salvation simply by reading the bible (absent James, Jude and Revelation) has proven a poison pill to Christian unity, harmony, witness and effectiveness. For people under the age of 50, Christianity in North America is a thing of the past. Millions have fled all connection with the "church." Across the major denominations perhaps as many as 40 million Americans have left or stopped attending Christian and other religious institutions, coinciding with a drop in the U.S. Christian population from roughly 90% down to between 62% and 65%. The percentage of religiously unaffiliated Americans (known as "nones") grew sharply from about 6% in 1990 to roughly 28% to 29%. he share of mainline Protestants plummeted from over 50% in the late 1950s down to about 10%.. Over the last 20 years, the number of Christian bookstores in America dropped from roughly 7,000 to around 1,800, meaning over 5,200 stores have closed. Religion remains the largest recipient of charitable dollars overall ($151.58 billion), but its total share of American philanthropy has dropped to 24.6%, down from roughly half of all charitable dollars in the 1990s. This means that while a church's total annual revenue might look healthy, the middle class of donors is shrinking. Nearly 37% of regular churchgoers donate nothing at all, leaving local church budgets vulnerable if a handful of major donors who will relocate or retire, with experts projecting that 100,000 churches may close or be repurposed over the next decade.

I mention these statistics as a means of being real about the impact and effect of the way Christianity is playing out in North America. We have hundreds to thousands of competing and often bitterly competing Christianities being marketed. Each has their unique identity established by their unique understanding of the bible and thus Jesus and God. It is not working.
Looks like you fish in the Pacific Northwest ... biblestudent78 ... do you have a shorter handle I can use?
Where are you goimg with al of this ... I tend to agree with you ... now then, what about talking about something more specific ... got a Pauline verse we could play with?
 
Looking at your translation, I think the more interesting discussion is not actually the presence or absence of the article, but what Paul means by the entire phrase.
Even if we grant the Byzantine reading with τῆς πίστεως ("the faith"/"the trust"), the central point remains that salvation is by grace through faith, and that the whole saving arrangement is not from ourselves but is God's gift.
The article may make the noun more definite, but it does not substantially alter Paul's argument.

As for "faith" versus "trust," I think "trust" captures an important aspect of πίστις, namely reliance upon Christ, but I am not convinced it exhausts the term.
In Paul's letters, πίστις can refer to personal trust, faithful allegiance, belief, or even the body of Christian faith depending on context. That is why many translations retain "faith." It is broader and leaves room for the various nuances Paul employs.

Regarding the variant itself, I would hesitate to make too much of it.
Whether the article is original or not, the doctrine of the passage does not rise or fall on that detail.
This is where I return to a principle I mentioned before: the clearer and more numerous passages should guide our understanding. Paul repeatedly teaches salvation by God's grace through faith in Christ throughout his letters.
Therefore, any reading of Ephesians 2:8 that turns the focus away from God's gracious action and places it primarily on man's contribution would have to contend with the broader testimony of Scripture.
The variant is worth discussing, but it is not large enough to overturn the mountain of clear passages speaking to the same subject.
I was just trying to open a discussion with the guy ... not trying to define doctrine ... i tend to agree with you about that, but doctrine is not where I am coming from ... it's a conversatiomn killer ... now then, any of yur Pauline verses where you have an alternate word choice ... this I would be interested in?
 
I was just trying to open a discussion with the guy ... not trying to define doctrine ... i tend to agree with you about that, but doctrine is not where I am coming from ... it's a conversatiomn killer ... now then, any of yur Pauline verses where you have an alternate word choice ... this I would be interested in?
I often wrestle with δικαιοσύνη.
Most English translations render it "righteousness," which is accurate, but for many modern readers that word carries a moral-performance sense that can miss Paul's covenantal and legal nuances.
Likewise, σάρξ is often translated "flesh," yet in many Pauline contexts "sinful nature" overstates it while "flesh" understates it.
Another example is καταλλάσσω and its related nouns, usually rendered "reconcile" or "reconciliation."
Those are good translations, but they can sound abstract in English compared to the relational force Paul seems to have in mind.
 
First of all. I am not against literal means in the New Testament. But understanding the book of John for instance introduces an entirely new and original context for Jesus. The "I am" sayings are both literal and poetic leveraging late onset Greek infatuation with the word logos.

When Jesus says "if you see me, you see the father." If literal it means God looks exactly like a 33 yr old Jesus. On the other hand, if my son said "if you know me, you know my father" we would not image the person talking to you believes that he and his father were literally the same person.

When Jesus says "Pluck Out Your Eye or Cut Off Your Hand" (Matthew 5:29–30; Mark 9:43–47) — Rather than commanding actual self-mutilation, Jesus used extreme hyperbole to show the seriousness of sin and the urgent need to cut off bad habits at their root. I know of nobody who reads this literally. Hate Your Father and Mother (Luke 14:26) - literally? Jesus said Eat My Flesh and Drink My Blood (John 6:53–56) is accepted as a literal command by over 50% of Christians and "symbolic" by the other 50%. But when Jesus said Let the Dead Bury Their Dead (Matthew 8:21–22) everyone agrees this is not literal, but why?
Some read Trampling Serpents and Scorpions (Luke 10:19) as a literal universal statement.

Be Perfect as Your Heavenly Father Is Perfect (Matthew 5:48) is generally read as hyperbole. Some weave Calvinist theology into it. (God made the saved "perfect" before the earth was created," thus using it as a literal meaning.
Passages in Genesis, Psalms, and Job describe a flat Earth surrounded by a solid dome (firmament) holding back upper waters, with celestial bodies set directly into that dome. Apologists struggle over whether to read this as a non-literal "phenomenological view" (how the sky looks to a human observer) or as ancient mythological science that the text actually assumed.

The Song of Songs (Song of Solomon) features explicit, uninhibited erotic love poetry between lovers. For centuries, this forced rabbis and church fathers to allegorize every line into an abstract symbol of God's love for Israel or Christ's love for the Church just to make the plain text palatable.

Scholars debate whether Gospel writers utilized accepted ancient Greco-Roman literary devices (such as telescoping events, rearranging chronological orders like John moving the temple cleansing, or compressing dialogue). Apologists split sharply: some (like Mike Licona) argue these were standard ancient compositional conventions, while others (like Dr. Lydia McGrew) panic that admitting to any flexible chronological arrangement ruins inerrancy and turns history into fiction

Statements like Jesus saying "I thirst" in John's Gospel or dramatic dying declarations create friction between interpreters who view every single syllable as a strictly transcribed tape-recording versus those who recognize heightened theological symbolism and structural framing.

Parables and Similes: Jesus frequently taught using parables—extended stories or similes using everyday earthly scenarios (like a sower, a shepherd, or a hidden treasure) to convey spiritual or moral truths. These are universally recognized by mainstream theologians as figurative rather than historical events. Whereas the parable of the fig tree and the burning of the unfruitful while deemed metaphoric still invokes chills.

Books like Revelation and Daniel use dense, bizarre animal symbolism, cosmic catastrophes, and scaled-up numbers that defy a simple newspaper-headline style of literal forecasting. Thus, each denomination interprets these two books as an unagreed upon mixture of symbology, metaphor, apocryphal meaning and future imaginingings. It was not until the 1830's that the End Days theology was invented but is now widely believed and is the foundational identity to a wide swath of denominational and non-denomination theology.

"He who believes and is baptised will be saved" statement by Jesus results in major denominations and their spun off non-denominational clones totally reject the literal meaning of this statement by Jesus. Why? Because it violates a perception that Martin Luther had that no physical action means anything to your salvation. Today, we cover our fears by baptising only people already "saved." A clear prioritization of creed over both the literal and figurative understanding of the verse.

Then there is the Prosperity Gospel based on literal understandings of key biblical verses. 52% of Protestant churchgoers report hearing messages that financial/charity giving brings God's blessing, 45% believe they must perform specific actions to earn material blessings, and 76% believe God explicitly wants them to prosper financially. There are plenty of literal biblical interpretations that are driving this trend.

Martin Luther's original proposition that one can come to salvation simply by reading the bible (absent James, Jude and Revelation) has proven a poison pill to Christian unity, harmony, witness and effectiveness. For people under the age of 50, Christianity in North America is a thing of the past. Millions have fled all connection with the "church." Across the major denominations perhaps as many as 40 million Americans have left or stopped attending Christian and other religious institutions, coinciding with a drop in the U.S. Christian population from roughly 90% down to between 62% and 65%. The percentage of religiously unaffiliated Americans (known as "nones") grew sharply from about 6% in 1990 to roughly 28% to 29%. he share of mainline Protestants plummeted from over 50% in the late 1950s down to about 10%.. Over the last 20 years, the number of Christian bookstores in America dropped from roughly 7,000 to around 1,800, meaning over 5,200 stores have closed. Religion remains the largest recipient of charitable dollars overall ($151.58 billion), but its total share of American philanthropy has dropped to 24.6%, down from roughly half of all charitable dollars in the 1990s. This means that while a church's total annual revenue might look healthy, the middle class of donors is shrinking. Nearly 37% of regular churchgoers donate nothing at all, leaving local church budgets vulnerable if a handful of major donors who will relocate or retire, with experts projecting that 100,000 churches may close or be repurposed over the next decade.

I mention these statistics as a means of being real about the impact and effect of the way Christianity is playing out in North America. We have hundreds to thousands of competing and often bitterly competing Christianities being marketed. Each has their unique identity established by their unique understanding of the bible and thus Jesus and God. It is not working.
I think I would also add the statement Jesus made about drinking His blood and eating His flesh.
I don't think He was talking about cannibalism.
Rather a symbolic/spiritual representation that we must accept His upcoming crucifixion as redemption from sin.
 
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I often wrestle with δικαιοσύνη.
Most English translations render it "righteousness," which is accurate, but for many modern readers that word carries a moral-performance sense that can miss Paul's covenantal and legal nuances.
Likewise, σάρξ is often translated "flesh," yet in many Pauline contexts "sinful nature" overstates it while "flesh" understates it.
Another example is καταλλάσσω and its related nouns, usually rendered "reconcile" or "reconciliation."
Those are good translations, but they can sound abstract in English compared to the relational force Paul seems to have in mind.
(OMC)
I often wrestle with δικαιοσύνη.

(Robin)
Interesting word family ...
1341 GK1464 dikaiokrisias (H1~) of~a~correct-judgment N-GSF.10

1342 GK1465 dikaios (3/ 1) a~correct [one/ One] A-NSM.01

1342 GK1465 dikaiou (1) of~a~correct [one] A-GSM.02

1342 GK1465 dikaiOi+ (1) unto~a~correct [one] A-DSM.03

1342 GK1465 dikaion (1/ 1) to~a~correct [one/ One] A-ASM.04

1342 GK1465 dikaioi (2) correct [ones] A-NPM.05

1342 GK1465 dikaia (1) a~correct [one] A-NSF.09

1342 GK1465 dikaias (P1/1) of~a~correct [one] A-GSF.10

1342 GK1465 dikaion (2) a~correct [thing] A-NSN.17

1342 GK1465 dikaion (2) to~a~correct [thing] A-ASN.20

1342 GK1465 dikaia (1) correct [things] A-NPN.21

1343 GK1466 dikaiosunE (10) a~correction N-NSF.09

1343 GK1466 dikaiosunEs (16/ 1) of~a~correction N-GSF.10

1343 GK1466 dikaiosunEi+ (8/ 2) unto~a~correction N-DSF.11

1343 GK1466 dikaiosunEn (P21/ T2) to~a~correction N-ASF.12

1344 GK1467 edikaiOsen (P2/1) He had corrected V-AAI-3S.5656

1344 GK1467 edikaiOthEte (P1/1) you were corrected V-API-2P.5681

1344 GK1467 edikaiOthE (1/ 1) he/ He was corrected V-API-3S.5681

1344 GK1467 dikaiOthEnai (1) to be corrected V-APN.5683

1344 GK1467 dikaiOthentes (P2/ T1) having been corrected V-APP-NPM.5685

1344 GK1467 dikaiOthOmen (P2/1) we should be corrected V-APS-1P.5686

1344 GK1467 dikaiOthEis+ (P1/1) you should be corrected V-APS-2S.5686

1344 GK1467 dikaiOsei (P1/1) He will correct V-FAI-3S.5692

1344 GK1467 dikaiOthEsetai (P2) she will be corrected V-FPI-3S.5701

1344 GK1467 dikaiOthEsontai (P1/1) they will be corrected V-FPI-3P.5701

1344 GK1467 dikaioi (1) He corrects V-PAI-3S.5719

1344 GK1467 dikaiOn (P1/1) correcting V-PAP-NSM.5723

1344 GK1467 dikaiounta (P2/1) to~correcting V-PAP-ASM.5723

1344 GK1467 dikaiousthe (P1/1) you are corrected V-PPI-2P.5743

1344 GK1467 dikaioutai (2) he is corrected V-PPI-3S.5743

1344 GK1467 dikaiousthai (P1/1) to be corrected V-PPN.5745

1344 GK1467 dikaioumenoi (P1/1) being corrected V-PPP-NPM.5746

1344 GK1467 dedikaiOmai (P1/1) I have had been corrected V-RPI-1S.5769

1344 GK1467 dedikaiOtai (P1/1) he has had been corrected V-RPI-3S.5769

1345 GK1468 dikaiOma (P1/1) a~correcting-standard N-NSN.01

1345 GK1468 dikaiOmatos (P1/1) of~a~correcting-standard N-GSN.18

1345 GK1468 dikaiOma (P2/1) to~a~correcting-standard N-ASN.20

1345 GK1468 dikaiOmata (1) to~correcting-standards N-APN.24

1346 GK1469 dikaiOs (2/ 1) correctly ADV

1347 GK1470
dikaiOsin (P2/1) to~a~correctedness N-ASF.12

1349 GK1472 dikEn (1) to~a~correcting N-ASF.12
 
I think I would also add the statement Jesus made about drinking His blood and eating His flesh.
I don't think He was talking about cannibalism.
Rather a symbolic/spiritual representation that we must accept His upcoming crucifixion as redemption from sin.
That's a great discussion, we should have a thread talk about it.

Spiritual is very important to our life, without spirit, we will not be alive. Maybe just dust.
 
(OMC)
I often wrestle with δικαιοσύνη.

(Robin)
Interesting word family ...
1341 GK1464 dikaiokrisias (H1~) of~a~correct-judgment N-GSF.10

1342 GK1465 dikaios (3/ 1) a~correct [one/ One] A-NSM.01

1342 GK1465 dikaiou (1) of~a~correct [one] A-GSM.02

1342 GK1465 dikaiOi+ (1) unto~a~correct [one] A-DSM.03

1342 GK1465 dikaion (1/ 1) to~a~correct [one/ One] A-ASM.04

1342 GK1465 dikaioi (2) correct [ones] A-NPM.05

1342 GK1465 dikaia (1) a~correct [one] A-NSF.09

1342 GK1465 dikaias (P1/1) of~a~correct [one] A-GSF.10

1342 GK1465 dikaion (2) a~correct [thing] A-NSN.17

1342 GK1465 dikaion (2) to~a~correct [thing] A-ASN.20

1342 GK1465 dikaia (1) correct [things] A-NPN.21

1343 GK1466 dikaiosunE (10) a~correction N-NSF.09

1343 GK1466 dikaiosunEs (16/ 1) of~a~correction N-GSF.10

1343 GK1466 dikaiosunEi+ (8/ 2) unto~a~correction N-DSF.11

1343 GK1466 dikaiosunEn (P21/ T2) to~a~correction N-ASF.12

1344 GK1467 edikaiOsen (P2/1) He had corrected V-AAI-3S.5656

1344 GK1467 edikaiOthEte (P1/1) you were corrected V-API-2P.5681

1344 GK1467 edikaiOthE (1/ 1) he/ He was corrected V-API-3S.5681

1344 GK1467 dikaiOthEnai (1) to be corrected V-APN.5683

1344 GK1467 dikaiOthentes (P2/ T1) having been corrected V-APP-NPM.5685

1344 GK1467 dikaiOthOmen (P2/1) we should be corrected V-APS-1P.5686

1344 GK1467 dikaiOthEis+ (P1/1) you should be corrected V-APS-2S.5686

1344 GK1467 dikaiOsei (P1/1) He will correct V-FAI-3S.5692

1344 GK1467 dikaiOthEsetai (P2) she will be corrected V-FPI-3S.5701

1344 GK1467 dikaiOthEsontai (P1/1) they will be corrected V-FPI-3P.5701

1344 GK1467 dikaioi (1) He corrects V-PAI-3S.5719

1344 GK1467 dikaiOn (P1/1) correcting V-PAP-NSM.5723

1344 GK1467 dikaiounta (P2/1) to~correcting V-PAP-ASM.5723

1344 GK1467 dikaiousthe (P1/1) you are corrected V-PPI-2P.5743

1344 GK1467 dikaioutai (2) he is corrected V-PPI-3S.5743

1344 GK1467 dikaiousthai (P1/1) to be corrected V-PPN.5745

1344 GK1467 dikaioumenoi (P1/1) being corrected V-PPP-NPM.5746

1344 GK1467 dedikaiOmai (P1/1) I have had been corrected V-RPI-1S.5769

1344 GK1467 dedikaiOtai (P1/1) he has had been corrected V-RPI-3S.5769

1345 GK1468 dikaiOma (P1/1) a~correcting-standard N-NSN.01

1345 GK1468 dikaiOmatos (P1/1) of~a~correcting-standard N-GSN.18

1345 GK1468 dikaiOma (P2/1) to~a~correcting-standard N-ASN.20

1345 GK1468 dikaiOmata (1) to~correcting-standards N-APN.24

1346 GK1469 dikaiOs (2/ 1) correctly ADV

1347 GK1470
dikaiOsin (P2/1) to~a~correctedness N-ASF.12

1349 GK1472 dikEn (1) to~a~correcting N-ASF.12
That is exactly why I find these word studies interesting.
Looking at your list, I can see why you've gravitated toward "correct," "correction," and "corrected" as the core idea of the δικ- word family.
It gives the family a very consistent English backbone.
My only hesitation is that "correct" in modern English often suggests fixing an error, whereas Paul's usage frequently seems to operate in the spheres of justice, legal standing, vindication, and right relationship.
For example, when Paul says God "justifies the ungodly" in Romans 4:5, "God corrects the ungodly" feels narrower to my ear than what Paul may be conveying.
That said, I think you've touched on a real translation challenge.
"Righteousness" is traditional, but many readers don't know what it means. "Justice" works in some contexts but not all.
"Correctness" or "correction" highlights conformity to a standard, which is certainly part of the semantic range.
So if I were evaluating your approach, my question would not be whether "correction" is possible, but whether it can carry the full weight of passages where Paul appears to be speaking of acquittal, vindication, covenant standing, or moral rectitude all at once.
In other words, you've solved one problem by making the word family transparent in English, but I'd be curious whether any meaning gets lost when all the δικ- terms are funneled through the idea of "correct."
That would make for a fascinating passage-by-passage discussion, especially in Romans, where Paul seems to squeeze every possible nuance out of that word family.
 
I often wrestle with δικαιοσύνη.
Most English translations render it "righteousness," which is accurate, but for many modern readers that word carries a moral-performance sense that can miss Paul's covenantal and legal nuances.
Likewise, σάρξ is often translated "flesh," yet in many Pauline contexts "sinful nature" overstates it while "flesh" understates it.
Another example is καταλλάσσω and its related nouns, usually rendered "reconcile" or "reconciliation."
Those are good translations, but they can sound abstract in English compared to the relational force Paul seems to have in mind.
(OMC)
... flesh understates it ...
(Robin)
Perhapa ... you do realize this is Figure of speech, right ... Figures are use to make you pause and consider more carefully ... they are understated, they are intended to make you think!

4559 GK4920 sarkikois (P1/1) a~fleshly [one] A-NSM.01

4559 GK4920 sarkikoi (P3/1) fleshly [ones] A-NPM.05

4559 GK4920 sarkikos (P1/1) unto~fleshly [ones] A-DPM.07

4559 GK4920 sarkikEi+ (P1/1) unto~a~fleshly [one] A-DSF.11

4559 GK4920 sarkika (P1/1) fleshly [things] A-NPN.21

4559 GK4920 sarkikois (P1/1) unto~fleshly [things] A-DPN.23

4559 GK4920 sarkika (P1/1) to~fleshly [things] A-APN.24

4560 GK4921 *sarkinos *GCT, different word, see 4559 a~fleshen [one] A-NSM.01

4560 GK4921 *sarkinois *GCT, different word, see 4559 unto~fleshen [ones] A-DPM.07

4560 GK4921 sarkinais (H1~) unto~fleshen [ones] A-DPF.15

4561 GK4922 sarx (9) a~flesh N-NSF.09

4561 GK4922 sarkos (23) of~a~flesh N-GSF.10

4561 GK4922 sarki (31/ 1) unto~a~flesh N-DSF.11

4561 GK4922 sarka (27) to~a~flesh N-ASF.12
 
(Robin)
I see that your posts quotes:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8 NKJV)

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως, καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν·θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· (RP2026)
2:8* τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι { διὰ τῆς RP HF F35 TR OC ♦ διὰ TH SBL NA SR WH }
πίστεως, καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν·θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

That is, the NKJV appears to follow the critical text readings of the TH SBL NA SR and WH ...
that is, it omits the definite article before ... tEs pisteOs ...of~the [one] {3588 T-GSF} of~a~trust {4102 N-GSF}
Critical texts omit the definite article because they prioritize older Alexandrian manuscripts (such as Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus), which lack the article. By contrast, the Byzantine/Textus Receptus tradition includes the article ... notice that both
the TR and OC include the article ... and yet, your version of choice is the New King James Version ... interesting don't you think?

If the article is really suppose to be present (as in the Textus Receptus), it is most likely an anaphoric article. ....it points back to a previously mentioned concept to make it specific; however, the Greek word for "faith" (I prefer the word of "trust") does not
actually appear anywhere in the preceding verses of chapter 2 ... therefore, if the article is anaphoric, it would have to be referring back to the ... concept ...
the concept of the believers' response to the evangel in the preceding discussion of being made alive together with Christ.

I have compiled my own reading of the 10 Pauline epistles (and the three Pastorals), but have built my translations around the critical greek text of the RP20226 Byzantine Textform (RP)... which in this case matches that of the HF, F35, OC and TR ... I would have liked to find something more specific for the anaphoric article to point back at ... but, nevertheless kept it in my Greek, because the Alexandrian leaning critical texts really did not present any real factual reasons for not doing so?

Faith or Trust ... which English word choice? There is an on-going topic discussion about this elsewhere ... I hope it is on-going, as I am heavely invested in using the word "trust" whereas the one countering this, is of the opiniomn that "trust" does not fully equate to the Greek word... in my opinion it does, so I am hoping that that particluar conversation will continue, because I am looking to learn what other English words might be used? ... I'm rambling ... sorry!

Anyway, here is my translation of this verse ... I was hoping that I might interest you in a conversation ... put your reading up against my reading and we could discuss the differences... who knows it might be fun, and perhaps rewarding?


“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8 NKJV)
"For, with~the grace you are, having had been delivered through the trust; and this [matter], not out of~you, [but] the gratuity of~God"

unto~the [one] {3588 T-DSF} for {1063 CONJ} unto~a~grace {5485 N-DSF} you are {1510 V-PAI-2P} having had been delivered{4982 V-RPP-NPM} through {1223 PREP} of~the [one] {3588 T-GSF} of~a~trust {4102 N-GSF} and {2532 CONJ} this [thing]{3778 D-NSN} not {3756 PRT-N} out {1537 PREP} of~you {1473 P-2GP} of~a~God {2316 N-GSM} the [thing] {3588 T-NSN} a~gratuity {1435 N-NSN}

RWRiley:
I note with interest your references to a Greek version of the New Testament. I am curious why you chose the later Textus Receptus of the 16th century and it associated NKJ version as the basis for your observations. Many biblical scholars prefer the Alexandrian over the Byzantine corpus. Today, most translators are more focused on the The Critical Texts as they eliminate portions of the Textus Receptus as later access to older (earlier) texts are included. While none introduce a basis for new or changed established theologies they do bring valuable improvements in accuracy. There is no longer the the long ending in Mark 16:9-20, or of the story of the adulterous woman in John 7:53-8:11 no Mark 18:11 or Acts 8:37. In each case earlier manuscripts are preferred. They do point to the fact that text of the New Testament evolved over times as local biblical scholars worked with what they and only added or modified in a few places to support an important orthodoxy..the Johannine Comma for instance.

I agree with you that in our modern vernacular, trust is a better translation. Hopefully the noise you hear is not Martin Luther rolling over in his grave.
 
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(OMC)
... flesh understates it ...
(Robin)
Perhapa ... you do realize this is Figure of speech, right ... Figures are use to make you pause and consider more carefully ... they are understated, they are intended to make you think!

4559 GK4920 sarkikois (P1/1) a~fleshly [one] A-NSM.01

4559 GK4920 sarkikoi (P3/1) fleshly [ones] A-NPM.05

4559 GK4920 sarkikos (P1/1) unto~fleshly [ones] A-DPM.07

4559 GK4920 sarkikEi+ (P1/1) unto~a~fleshly [one] A-DSF.11

4559 GK4920 sarkika (P1/1) fleshly [things] A-NPN.21

4559 GK4920 sarkikois (P1/1) unto~fleshly [things] A-DPN.23

4559 GK4920 sarkika (P1/1) to~fleshly [things] A-APN.24

4560 GK4921 *sarkinos *GCT, different word, see 4559 a~fleshen [one] A-NSM.01

4560 GK4921 *sarkinois *GCT, different word, see 4559 unto~fleshen [ones] A-DPM.07

4560 GK4921 sarkinais (H1~) unto~fleshen [ones] A-DPF.15

4561 GK4922 sarx (9) a~flesh N-NSF.09

4561 GK4922 sarkos (23) of~a~flesh N-GSF.10

4561 GK4922 sarki (31/ 1) unto~a~flesh N-DSF.11

4561 GK4922 sarka (27) to~a~flesh N-ASF.12
That's a fair observation, and I agree that Paul is often using σάρξ as more than a simple anatomical reference.
It functions as a figure of speech that forces the reader to think beyond the physical body.
In that sense, I would actually be cautious about replacing it with something like "sinful nature," because that translation does much of the interpretive work for the reader.
Paul's choice of flesh leaves room for a broader concept that can include human weakness, mortality, earthly orientation, natural descent, and in certain contexts opposition to the Spirit.

My concern is less with the figure itself and more with modern readers.
When Paul says, "those who are in the flesh cannot please God," he clearly means more than "people who possess physical bodies," since believers still possess physical bodies.
So there is always a tension between preserving Paul's imagery and communicating Paul's meaning.
Translators who render it "sinful nature" may explain too much, while translators who simply leave it as "flesh" may explain too little.

Looking at your renderings, I actually like that you preserve "flesh" and "fleshly."
Those choices keep the metaphor intact and allow the reader to wrestle with Paul's language rather than having the translator settle every question in advance.
If I were discussing this with you, I would be less inclined to ask whether σάρξ should be translated as "flesh" and more inclined to ask how a particular passage is using σάρξ. Romans 8, Galatians 5, Philippians 3, and 2 Corinthians 5 all seem to employ the term with slightly different shades of meaning.
That strikes me as a context question rather than a vocabulary question.
 
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I often wrestle with δικαιοσύνη.
Most English translations render it "righteousness," which is accurate, but for many modern readers that word carries a moral-performance sense that can miss Paul's covenantal and legal nuances.
Likewise, σάρξ is often translated "flesh," yet in many Pauline contexts "sinful nature" overstates it while "flesh" understates it.
Another example is καταλλάσσω and its related nouns, usually rendered "reconcile" or "reconciliation."
Those are good translations, but they can sound abstract in English compared to the relational force Paul seems to have in mind.
(OMC)
Another example is καταλλάσσω and its related nouns, usually rendered "reconcile" or "reconciliation."

(Robin)
I tend to try to get away from a words religious baggage ... Sometimes you just have to present a Greek compound word as it is ... a compound word ...
2643 GK2903 katallagE (P1/1) a~down-another-exchange N-NSF.09

2643 GK2903 katallagEs (P2/1) of~a~down-another-exchange N-GSF.10

2643 GK2903 katallagEn (P1/1) to~a~down-another-exchange N-ASF.12

2644 GK2904 katEllagEmen (P1/1) we were down-another-exchanged V-2API-1P.5648

2644 GK2904 katallagEte (P1/1) you be down-another-exchanged V-2APM-2P.5649

2644 GK2904 katallagEtO (P1/1) let~her be down-another-exchanged V-2APM-3S.5649

2644 GK2904 katallagentes (P1/1) having been down-another-exchanged V-2APP-NPM.5651

2644 GK2904 katallaxantos (P1/1) of~having down-another-exchanged V-AAP-GSM.5660

2644 GK2904 katallassOn (P1/1) down-another-exchanging V-PAP-NSM.5723

26

.
 
RWRiley:
I note with interest your references to a Greek version of the New Testament. I am curious why you chose the later Textus Receptus of the 16th century and it associated NKJ version as the basis for your observations. Many biblical scholars prefer the Alexandrian over the Byzantine corpus. Today, most translators are more focused on the The Critical Texts as they eliminate portions of the Textus Receptus as later access to older (earlier) texts are included. While none introduce a basis for new or changed established theologies they do bring valuable improvements in accuracy. There is no longer the the long ending in Mark 16:9-20, or of the story of the adulterous woman in John 7:53-8:11 no Mark 18:11 or Acts 8:37. In each case earlier manuscripts are preferred. They do point to the fact that text of the New Testament evolved over times as local biblical scholars worked with what they and only added or modified in a few places to support an important orthodoxy..the Johannine Comma for instance.

I agree with you that in our modern vernacular, trust is a better translation. Hopefully the noise you hear is not Martin Luther rolling over in his grave.
(Biblestudent78)
I am curious why you chose the later Textus Receptus of the 16th century and it associated NKJ version as the basis for your observations.

(Robin)
You were not paying close attention ... perhaps you did not read any of my other posts .... I am translating from the RP2026 Byzantine Textform ... but I do acknmowloge the text fource variants of at least 10 other Greek critical texts ...
 
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I think I would also add the statement Jesus made about drinking His blood and eating His flesh.
I don't think He was talking about cannibalism.
Rather a symbolic/spiritual representation that we must accept His upcoming crucifixion as redemption from sin.
Davidstarr:
Exactly. A strictly literal reading of the bible is a good way to be totally confused about what you are reading. We do not read much of anything literally and we should not make it the only filter. One can chose to read the bible literally one can read the Bible to understand and be edified.
 
(OMC)
Another example is καταλλάσσω and its related nouns, usually rendered "reconcile" or "reconciliation."

(Robin)
I tend to try to get away from a words religious baggage ... Sometimes you just have to present a Greek compound word as it is ... a compound word ...
2643 GK2903 katallagE (P1/1) a~down-another-exchange N-NSF.09

2643 GK2903 katallagEs (P2/1) of~a~down-another-exchange N-GSF.10

2643 GK2903 katallagEn (P1/1) to~a~down-another-exchange N-ASF.12

2644 GK2904 katEllagEmen (P1/1) we were down-another-exchanged V-2API-1P.5648

2644 GK2904 katallagEte (P1/1) you be down-another-exchanged V-2APM-2P.5649

2644 GK2904 katallagEtO (P1/1) let~her be down-another-exchanged V-2APM-3S.5649

2644 GK2904 katallagentes (P1/1) having been down-another-exchanged V-2APP-NPM.5651

2644 GK2904 katallaxantos (P1/1) of~having down-another-exchanged V-AAP-GSM.5660

2644 GK2904 katallassOn (P1/1) down-another-exchanging V-PAP-NSM.5723

26

.
I understand what you're trying to do, and I respect the desire to strip away religious baggage and let readers see the structure of the Greek.
My concern would simply be whether an etymological rendering communicates what the word means in actual usage.
Compound words often drift beyond the sum of their parts.
For example, while καταλλάσσω may be analyzed as something like "change" or "exchange" with a prefixed intensifier, Paul's usage seems consistently relational.
In Romans 5 and 2 Corinthians 5, the emphasis is not merely that an exchange has occurred, but that a state of alienation has been replaced by a state of peace and restored relationship.

So when I read "down-another-exchange," I can see the pieces of the Greek compound, but I am not sure a modern English reader would naturally arrive at the idea Paul is expressing.
A translation's task is not only to show how a word was built but also how the word functioned in the author's argument.
In that sense, "reconciliation" may carry some theological baggage, but it also immediately communicates the restoration of a broken relationship, which appears to be exactly Paul's point.

That said, you've raised a valuable question.
Every translator must decide whether to prioritize transparency to the Greek form or clarity of meaning in the target language.
My instinct is that Paul cared more about his readers understanding the reality being described than about preserving the visible components of a compound word.
So if I were evaluating your method, I'd ask: does "down-another-exchange" communicate Paul's intended meaning more clearly than "reconciliation," or does it mainly communicate how the Greek word was constructed?
To me, those are related but not necessarily identical goals.
 
That's a fair observation, and I agree that Paul is often using σάρξ as more than a simple anatomical reference.
It functions as a figure of speech that forces the reader to think beyond the physical body.
In that sense, I would actually be cautious about replacing it with something like "sinful nature," because that translation does much of the interpretive work for the reader.
Paul's choice of flesh leaves room for a broader concept that can include human weakness, mortality, earthly orientation, natural descent, and in certain contexts opposition to the Spirit.

My concern is less with the figure itself and more with modern readers.
When Paul says, "those who are in the flesh cannot please God," he clearly means more than "people who possess physical bodies," since believers still possess physical bodies.
So there is always a tension between preserving Paul's imagery and communicating Paul's meaning.
Translators who render it "sinful nature" may explain too much, while translators who simply leave it as "flesh" may explain too little.

Looking at your renderings, I actually like that you preserve "flesh" and "fleshly."
Those choices keep the metaphor intact and allow the reader to wrestle with Paul's language rather than having the translator settle every question in advance.
If I were discussing this with you, I would be less inclined to ask whether σάρξ should be translated as "flesh" and more inclined to ask how a particular passage is using σάρξ. Romans 8, Galatians 5, Philippians 3, and 2 Corinthians 5 all seem to employ the term with slightly different shades of meaning.
That strikes me as a context question rather than a vocabulary question.
You would be expecting me to delve into an arena that I am not willing to venture ... I do have my own thoughts on such matters, but it is not mine to share them with others ... that's between them and God.