Gentile Christians in Synagogues? Where? When?

[Musicmaster]

Guess what?
You have ascended to moron classification...

Whatever. Ad hominem is not new at all in these forums.

MM

 

[rewriter]

Yes, I've heard all this nonsense from other scholars who themselves are quite liberal and fancy themselves among the top tiers of textual criticism, which they are not.



What do you know about those men? There was warps and twists in the minds of many back on those times, greatly influences by not only pagan ideologies but also philosophical ideologies. Many of those "early fathers" are very well known to have been influenced by Plato and others of a system of thinking that was not ever influenced nor inspired from the Divine.



Well, I'm always in favor of various people believing whatever they want. I've spend years studying these kinds of criticisms from various sources on the other side of the "isle" that have inherent problems with their conclusions because of the numerous faults in their premises.

So, please, understand that I'm fully in favor of you doing you, which is fine, but I'm not one to sit here and tell others in this forum and throughout the rest of the culture how blessed they now are to finally have what some think is the more pure word of God...all because of God, of course, being too puny to keep His word to us incorrupt throughout time and thus powerless to keep His word to us incorrupt but only among the more enlightened who could allegedly see the discrepancies and dredge up the truth; all rooted in the writings of men who are known to have had other corruptive influences in their own thinking from base and pathetic minds of philosophers and textual editors with an agenda.

Folks, what some seem to miss who follow after these vain babblings about corruptions in the Bible is places like 1 John 2:27. God, in His infinite wisdom has given to us all THE safety escape from any and all questions and corruptions that may have ever existed in the past before all these modern versions existed that themselves are known to be altered on the basis of a small hand number of older manuscripts that themselves disagree with one another upwards of 30%+, some of which are known to have been altered five times in places, seen my using spectral analysis.

Holy Spirit will never mislead any who come before Him with a humble and contrite heart, truly seeking His truths above those fabricated by corrupt men. The very Author Himself has made Himself available to the seeking heart, thus never leaving us all down here to flounder about, chasing after one fable after another, trying to figure out what's more credible and true. He is true, all the time. Having access to the Author Himself is the BEST thing, not the NEXT best thing in this life.

Amen

MM

Well then of course you can explain simply what the issue was regarding women's hair in Corinth. And possibly link that to why Paul invented a word in 2 Timothy 3:16 instead of using the known word "enthousiamos", which meant "God filled". And of course, the easy one of why John's gospel resembles a work of Euripides as well as why it appears that both Mark and John were edited at some early date. And why is there obscure evidence that fits so well with the Jews scourging Jesus but so poorly with the Romans having done so and given that there were so few permanent members of the Sanhedrin (at most four and two would not qualify as secret supporters) that there were two "high ranking" members that were secret supporters of Jesus yet we do not know much more about them.

Now neither tradition nor education from any institution that has a Statement of Faith will allow you to answer the questions with any easy answers because those pesky Statements of Faith require their teachers to toe traditional teachings, and tradition does not necessarily want to reveal the truth. But if you have had the courage to step outside of tradition and look for answers, all these questions can be answered, but if you cower in fear of sounding different and "know" that the HS will not reveal that fear is preventing people from listening and learning what is true, they will prove difficult.

 

[Musicmaster]

Well then of course you can explain simply what the issue was regarding women's hair in Corinth. And possibly link that to why Paul invented a word in 2 Timothy 3:16 instead of using the known word "enthousiamos", which meant "God filled". And of course, the easy one of why John's gospel resembles a work of Euripides as well as why it appears that both Mark and John were edited at some early date. And why is there obscure evidence that fits so well with the Jews scourging Jesus but so poorly with the Romans having done so and given that there were so few permanent members of the Sanhedrin (at most four and two would not qualify as secret supporters) that there were two "high ranking" members that were secret supporters of Jesus yet we do not know much more about them.

Now neither tradition nor education from any institution that has a Statement of Faith will allow you to answer the questions with any easy answers because those pesky Statements of Faith require their teachers to toe traditional teachings, and tradition does not necessarily want to reveal the truth. But if you have had the courage to step outside of tradition and look for answers, all these questions can be answered, but if you cower in fear of sounding different and "know" that the HS will not reveal that fear is preventing people from listening and learning what is true, they will prove difficult.

What English version are you addressing in the early part of your post? That makes a difference given that the modern revisions are based upon manuscripts that are questionable to say the least.

MM

 

[BartholomewB]

I recently heard a popular theory among some who believe in Law-keeping stating that early Christians attended synagogues for their leaning in the midst of their discipleship.

This is untenable, as it directly contradicts the scriptural record of systematic expulsion from Synagogues. Evidence from the Gospel of John shows that even during Jesus' ministry, Jewish leaders had already formalized a policy to cast out anyone confessing Jesus as the Christ, including natural born Jews and Proselyte Gentiles...especially us Messianic Jews.

This wasn't an unforeseen outcome. Jesus himself repeatedly warned his disciples they would be put out of synagogues, persecuted and flogged. The practical absurdity of a synagogue leader welcoming Gentile followers of a Man they deemed a heretic, combined with the Book of Acts documenting these very expulsions, dismantles the "synagogue as a school" model that my Hebrew Roots friends and others who claim, as biblical fact, the idea that those early members of the body of Christ under Paul's Gospel of Grace attended Synagogue to learn the scriptures.

The textual evidence points not to a cooperative educational program but to a definitive and often violent schism.

The Case Against Synagogue Discipleship

The Primary Contradiction

The arguments I've seen some present refutes the theory that early Christians, particularly Gentiles, attended synagogue weekly to learn the scriptures. The core refutation rests on a simple premise: The theory is not only absent from scripture but is actively contradicted by it.

Scriptural Evidence of Expulsion

There are specific biblical passages to build a case for an early and hostile separation, such as John 9:22. During Jesus' lifetime, the parents of the man born blind refused to comment on his healing because they "feared the Jews," who had already decreed that confessing Jesus as Christ would result in being "put out of the synagogue." This establishes a pre-crucifixion policy of excommunication.

Jesus's Prophecies: Christ explicitly forewarned his disciples about this persecution, stating, "They will put you out of the synagogues," and that they would be beaten, flogged, and delivered to authorities *within* these same synagogues.

Acts of the Apostles: The narrative shows these prophecies fulfilled. Paul's missionary strategy often involved entering a synagogue, preaching that Jesus is the Messiah, and subsequently being chased out by hostile leadership and members.

The Practicality Test

Beyond direct textual evidence, let me highlight the logical and social implausibility of the theory: A scenario where a synagogue leader ever welcomed new Gentile converts to the "heretical" Jesus movement into the Synagogue is nonsensical. The reality of what happened to those people back then and even today dare Christians begin attending Synagogues who believe in Christ Jesus as Messiah, that clearly would not be seen by the Synagogue leadership as a peaceful interfaith dialogue but as a clash between an established religious authority and a movement it actively sought to suppress and destroy in NT times.

I've been there and done that. We of Christ Jesus aren't welcome in Synagogues, even those of us who are of Jewish descent. We're as anathema to the rabbis as those others are who believe in faith alone in Christ alone for salvation are to the Roman Catholic religion.

MM

In addition to the Antioch synagogue where the word “Christian” was first coined, the book of Acts lists nine other cities where Christianizing synagogues welcomed — or at least tolerated — Paul’s preaching to mixed congregations of Jews and Gentile “godfearers”:

Damascus, 9:20
Salamis, 13:5
Antioch of Pisidia, 13:14,43
Iconium, 14;1
Thessalonica, 17:1
Beroea (sometimes “Berea”), 17:10
Athens, 17:17
Corinth, 18:4,7
Ephesus, 18:19, 19:18

 

[Musicmaster]

In addition to the Antioch synagogue where the word “Christian” was first coined, the book of Acts lists nine other cities where Christianizing synagogues welcomed — or at least tolerated — Paul’s preaching to mixed congregations of Jews and Gentile “godfearers”:

Damascus, 9:20
Salamis, 13:5
Antioch of Pisidia, 13:14,43
Iconium, 14;1
Thessalonica, 17:1
Beroea (sometimes “Berea”), 17:10
Athens, 17:17
Corinth, 18:4,7
Ephesus, 18:19, 19:18

Interestingly, however, Paul, because of the increasing resistances he experienced over time from the Synagogue leaderships in the outlying provinces, eventually it all got to the point that he knew he had come to the end of any tolerance for his presence in those Synagogues. The decree of exclusionism within Jerusalem John 9:22 likely took some time to get out into all the outlying provinces of the Roman Empire, but it did eventually reach them all.

The Gentil converts to Judaism in those Synagogues were indeed intrigued by Paul's message and thus wanted to hear more. Also of note, those Synagogues where Paul preached had not yet been reached by the twelve with the Kingdom Gospel.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

My acquaintances within the Hebrew Roots movement are very big on the lies about Gentile converts, in Paul's time and beyond, all having attended local Synagogues to allegedly learn about the Mosaic Law to try and obey it. This folly, which denies the very Bible they claim to believe, contradicts their contrived notions about the Synagogues in ancient times allegedly accepting Gentiles who followed Christ Jesus as Savior.

MM

 

[2Christ]

I recently heard a popular theory among some who believe in Law-keeping stating that early Christians attended synagogues for their leaning in the midst of their discipleship.

This is untenable, as it directly contradicts the scriptural record of systematic expulsion from Synagogues. Evidence from the Gospel of John shows that even during Jesus' ministry, Jewish leaders had already formalized a policy to cast out anyone confessing Jesus as the Christ, including natural born Jews and Proselyte Gentiles...especially us Messianic Jews.

This wasn't an unforeseen outcome. Jesus himself repeatedly warned his disciples they would be put out of synagogues, persecuted and flogged. The practical absurdity of a synagogue leader welcoming Gentile followers of a Man they deemed a heretic, combined with the Book of Acts documenting these very expulsions, dismantles the "synagogue as a school" model that my Hebrew Roots friends and others who claim, as biblical fact, the idea that those early members of the body of Christ under Paul's Gospel of Grace attended Synagogue to learn the scriptures.

The textual evidence points not to a cooperative educational program but to a definitive and often violent schism.

The Case Against Synagogue Discipleship

The Primary Contradiction

The arguments I've seen some present refutes the theory that early Christians, particularly Gentiles, attended synagogue weekly to learn the scriptures. The core refutation rests on a simple premise: The theory is not only absent from scripture but is actively contradicted by it.

Scriptural Evidence of Expulsion

There are specific biblical passages to build a case for an early and hostile separation, such as John 9:22. During Jesus' lifetime, the parents of the man born blind refused to comment on his healing because they "feared the Jews," who had already decreed that confessing Jesus as Christ would result in being "put out of the synagogue." This establishes a pre-crucifixion policy of excommunication.

Jesus's Prophecies: Christ explicitly forewarned his disciples about this persecution, stating, "They will put you out of the synagogues," and that they would be beaten, flogged, and delivered to authorities *within* these same synagogues.

Acts of the Apostles: The narrative shows these prophecies fulfilled. Paul's missionary strategy often involved entering a synagogue, preaching that Jesus is the Messiah, and subsequently being chased out by hostile leadership and members.

The Practicality Test

Beyond direct textual evidence, let me highlight the logical and social implausibility of the theory: A scenario where a synagogue leader ever welcomed new Gentile converts to the "heretical" Jesus movement into the Synagogue is nonsensical. The reality of what happened to those people back then and even today dare Christians begin attending Synagogues who believe in Christ Jesus as Messiah, that clearly would not be seen by the Synagogue leadership as a peaceful interfaith dialogue but as a clash between an established religious authority and a movement it actively sought to suppress and destroy in NT times.

I've been there and done that. We of Christ Jesus aren't welcome in Synagogues, even those of us who are of Jewish descent. We're as anathema to the rabbis as those others are who believe in faith alone in Christ alone for salvation are to the Roman Catholic religion.

MM

Brother, I understand the concern, and I agree that believers have often been put out of the synagogues. But the conclusion here goes further than Scripture does, because Acts plainly shows Gentiles sitting in the synagogues.

The expulsions were real, but they were not universal. John 9:22 says "the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue." That is a decree about Jews confessing Christ. The same is true of John 16:2, "They shall put you out of the synagogues," which Jesus spoke to Jewish disciples. Neither verse says Gentiles were barred from hearing the Scriptures read.

Acts shows Gentiles present, and hungry for the word.

"And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks." (Acts 18:4)

"The Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath... And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God." (Acts 13:42, 44)

"A great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed." (Acts 14:1)

"Of the devout Greeks a great multitude." (Acts 17:4)

Not every synagogue turned hostile. The Bereans "were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily" (Acts 17:11). Crispus, "the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house" (Acts 18:8). Paul kept going back, even after suffering for it.


James settles it in Acts 15:21. After giving the Gentile believers their instructions, he says: "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." That reasoning only works if the Gentile believers could hear Moses read there.


You are right that the pattern often ended in a split, and that things worsened over time. Both are true: Gentiles heard the Scriptures in the synagogues, and the synagogues often cast believers out. record doesn't support the claim that Gentiles were never there.

 

[rewriter]

What English version are you addressing in the early part of your post? That makes a difference given that the modern revisions are based upon manuscripts that are questionable to say the least.

MM

I often use my own translation from the Greek, but if you are referring to "enthousiamos", it is not present in the NT, so relax.

But a suggestion for you, should your significant other be acting out of sorts, stomping around, slamming doors, etc., and you ask what is wrong and receive a snarled "Nothing". unless you want to remain in the doghouse, I would not believe that "nothing" and instead probe, gently of course, for the truth. In places the NT says one thing while also providing evidence that implies the exact opposite. In such cases I look very hard to learn what is true rather than casually accepting what is openly said. Tradition, and apparently you, casually accepts what is openly said.

 

[JohnDB]

Whatever. Ad hominem is not new at all in these forums.

MM

The reason you ascended is BECAUSE YOU ONLY WANT TO ARGUE. The notion of actually legitimately discussing any issue is tossed out in favor of you instantly picking a stupid argument....

THATS why you are a moron.

The MAIN reason.

Now if you can control yourself and actually behave like a reasonable human being instead of a member of the most annoying race on the planet (the whole reason why Jews are God's chosen) then maybe we can have a discussion.

Think you can manage that?

 

[OMC]

The reason you ascended is BECAUSE YOU ONLY WANT TO ARGUE. The notion of actually legitimately discussing any issue is tossed out in favor of you instantly picking a stupid argument....

THATS why you are a moron.

The MAIN reason.

Now if you can control yourself and actually behave like a reasonable human being instead of a member of the most annoying race on the planet (the whole reason why Jews are God's chosen) then maybe we can have a discussion.

Think you can manage that?

And you say you follow Christ? Is that how we treat others in the church? You did the same thing to me. You say you are a lamb like others but speak like a dragon. You accuse others of being argumentative, yet your entire reply is a string of personal insults rather than an engagement with the actual point being discussed.
Calling someone a "moron," questioning their humanity, and mocking them does not strengthen your argument; it simply avoids addressing it.
Scripture says, "The servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient" (2 Tim. 2:24), and "let your speech be always with grace" (Col. 4:6). If someone's argument is wrong, show where it is wrong from the text and reasoning.
If you cannot defend your position without ridicule and contempt, then perhaps the problem is not that others want to discuss the issue, but that you have mistaken personal attacks for discussion. I am sure others will be happy to examine evidence, but being called names is not evidence. Nor is it following the commands of Christ.