A Case for Not Reading The Bible Literally

[Davidstarr]

If .. huge if here. If these were the only scriptures one might worry about salvation. These are not about salvation. Context.. I don't know why.. to know some believe that word means cut off others believe it means to left up. How odd they did in that time cut off branches yet also branches that were not bearing fruit, not getting enough light, would lift it up so it would get more light and bear more fruit. To leave this out, just because one doesn't want to believe it does not make what your personal belief is true. Yeah if I believed so easy to lose salvation the.. duh its cut off! Yet He was not talking about salvation. For whom the Father gives the son.. He never loses any. This is where the classic adding to God's word comes in. But that doesn't mean we can't walk away. I thought what Jesus said is what Jesus meant. So if he said he doesn't lose any, he doesn't lose any.

For me, those in Christ are the branches that bear fruit. Because we're in the vine, we can't bear fruit of ourselves, and those that don't bear fruit are not of Him. We're never of Him. There is no verse in the Bible that says you can lose your salvation. There's no verse in the Bible saying "once saved, always saved." Christians do it, say it, to cause fear, to promote what they personally believe, not that Jesus Christ came, died on the cross for the world's sin, was buried, rose the third day, is the only way to the Father. He loves you. He died for you. Today is the day of salvation. That's what matters.

In Romans 11, the natural branches were broken off because of their unbelief. Then if the natural branches do not persist in their unbelief, they can be grafted back into their own olive tree because God has the power to restore them. Opps

Does a born again, saved Christian lose his free will once saved?
What if he/she decides that this life is harder than expected. I don't want to follow this path any more?
Will God force an eternal life on this person who does not want to be there?

 

[Aaron56]

I think mankind's dominion was only over the things of this world (Gen 1:26 & 28).
That would not include ruling over angels. They are not of this world.

“Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?”

 

[ZuluKono]

Show me even one verse in scripture that says the "sons of God" were angels.

Job 1:6, 2:1 and 38:7? It seems pretty widely accepted that the sons of God in Genesis 6 are fallen angels, but I'm not stuck on it. Who do you think they were, the sons of Seth? I know that's a widely held view also, but I can't say authoritatively either way. Can you?

Isaiah 14 says Lucifer is fallen from heaven, calls him "son of the morning", refers to him as a "man" in verse 16 and basically says that the world will be surprised by how small he actually is. Is this man called Lucifer a fallen angel? Some might say yes.

Jesus said angels in heaven do not marry yet these ones did.
So, what then? Fallen angels? Let's just call them for what they are, demons and devils.

In the context of Genesis 6 they would be fallen angels, which is what I called them. You do you.

Do you really believe that those demons (who left their first estate in heaven) can still be called "sons of God"?

Apparently yes based on Genesis 6. Do you really believe that there's only one person called god? Psalm 82 may interest you.

Rom 8:14 may interest you. The sons of God are obviously NOT fallen angels.

Yes, you're correct. The phrase "sons of God" when it occurs in the NT is obviously not referring to angels, and Jude 6 obviously does not refer to them as such.

I think you need to reevaluate the books of Enoch and compare them to the scriptures for accuracy.
There just too many lies in the books of Enoch that show this writing cannot be trusted.

I've never read it, so am unable to reevaluate it.

 

[Davidstarr]

“Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?”

It says we shall judge angels.
Do the angels of heaven need us to judge them?
That then would refer to the angels that have been thrown down the the earth wouldn't it?
The earth God gave us dominion over.
Which, of course, Satan and his angels now claim to be dominion over.
It is only the saved can judge those angels. The rest of the world has given their dominion over the Satan.

 

[Davidstarr]

Job 1:6, 2:1 and 38:7? It seems pretty widely accepted that the sons of God in Genesis 6 are fallen angels, but I'm not stuck on it. Who do you think they were, the sons of Seth? I know that's a widely held view also, but I can't say authoritatively either way. Can you?

Isaiah 14 says Lucifer is fallen from heaven, calls him "son of the morning", refers to him as a "man" in verse 16 and basically says that the world will be surprised by how small he actually is. Is this man called Lucifer a fallen angel? Some might say yes.

In the context of Genesis 6 they would be fallen angels, which is what I called them. You do you.

Apparently yes based on Genesis 6. Do you really believe that there's only one person called god? Psalm 82 may interest you.

Yes, you're correct. The phrase "sons of God" when it occurs in the NT is obviously not referring to angels, and Jude 6 obviously does not refer to them as such.

I've never read it, so am unable to reevaluate it.

It does not matter if you have never read the books of Enoch or not.
Someone else has and has preached to you what it says.
The problem is you are biblically illiterate enough to fall for it.

 

[NightTwister]

Does a born again, saved Christian lose his free will once saved?
What if he/she decides that this life is harder than expected. I don't want to follow this path any more?
Will God force an eternal life on this person who does not want to be there?

God changes a person's nature when He saves them, who then want to be with Him.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

If satan is co-eternal as is God, where does the bible teach that?

A person being able to literally read the scriptures written within the Bible does not teach a person what is literally written within the scriptures of the Bible.

The issue is why did God put evil, not Satan (in the form of a snake) in the garden knowing exactly what would happen to Adam and Eve?

What, the LORD so loving the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever shall believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life?

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, Gen 1:25

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. Eccl 3:18

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Gen 2:9

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:16

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Gen 3:1

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Gen 3:3

12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? l
James 3

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:4-5

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:34

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Gen 3:7

And LORD God saying the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen 3:22

~~~~~~~~~

And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
John 1:46-50

 

[Aaron56]

It says we shall judge angels.
Do the angels of heaven need us to judge them?
That then would refer to the angels that have been thrown down the the earth wouldn't it?
The earth God gave us dominion over.
Which, of course, Satan and his angels now claim to be dominion over.
It is only the saved can judge those angels. The rest of the world has given their dominion over the Satan.

Don't dodge.

You said we don't rule over the angels, as I wrote. I showed you where it is written that we do. You cannot come back and say, "Yeah, well, not all the angels." Next time just ask a clarifying question.

We will rule over all the angels. Man is received by God in Christ. And Christ has been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Angels are ministering spirits, servants of the House of God. It is axiomatic that the Lord of the House is greater than the servants.

Don't diminish "rule" to "telling them what to do". To rule over someone is to set the standard for their behavior: putting on display the nature and character by which they will be judged. A ruler, a 12-inch stick, sets the standard for a certain unit of measurement. The sons of God, in Christ (there are no sons of God outside of Christ) set the standard for a life surrendered to God.

 

[ScooterJackson]

In Romans 11, the natural branches were broken off because of their unbelief. Then if the natural branches do not persist in their unbelief, they can be grafted back into their own olive tree because God has the power to restore them. Opps

Yeah if people repent of their false doctrine they do can be restored but most won't. Opps.
The Lord clearly says if they don't continue in His goodness (abiding in Christ) then they will be cut off

Too bad so many refuse to accept what the Lord says in His Word during this time of falling away.
Looks like another Opps in in order.

 

[Davidstarr]

God changes a person's nature when He saves them, who then want to be with Him.

So free will is gone.

 

[Davidstarr]

Don't dodge.

You said we don't rule over the angels, as I wrote. I showed you where it is written that we do. You cannot come back and say, "Yeah, well, not all the angels." Next time just ask a clarifying question.

We will rule over all the angels. Man is received by God in Christ. And Christ has been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Angels are ministering spirits, servants of the House of God. It is axiomatic that the Lord of the House is greater than the servants.

Don't diminish "rule" to "telling them what to do". To rule over someone is to set the standard for their behavior: putting on display the nature and character by which they will be judged. A ruler, a 12-inch stick, sets the standard for a certain unit of measurement. The sons of God, in Christ (there are no sons of God outside of Christ) set the standard for a life surrendered to God.

Nope, you have not shown where Adam rules over angels.

 

[Davidstarr]

Yeah if people repent of their false doctrine they do can be restored but most won't. Opps.
The Lord clearly says if they don't continue in His goodness (abiding in Christ) then they will be cut off

Too bad so many refuse to accept what the Lord says in His Word during this time of falling away.
Looks like another Opps in in order.

I think you mean "Ooops"

 

[NightTwister]

So free will is gone.

It was never there.

 

[biblestudent78]

A person being able to literally read the scriptures written within the Bible does not teach a person what is literally written within the scriptures of the Bible.

What, the LORD so loving the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever shall believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life?

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, Gen 1:25

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. Eccl 3:18

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Gen 2:9

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:16

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Gen 3:1

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Gen 3:3

12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? l
James 3

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:4-5

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:34

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Gen 3:7

And LORD God saying the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen 3:22

~~~~~~~~~

And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
John 1:46-50

UnoiAmarah:
Interesting collection of scriptural references but I don't see any link to the questions I raised. The "bible does not have to teach" something to be true. The sun and moon rise and fall in their appointed orbits but there is no "teaching" in the Bible about it. If you believe what IS in the bible then evil in the garden is in the bible. My question is how does our various theologies answer the questions about how and why evil is there..

 

[Davidstarr]

It was never there.

So you do not have the ability to chose how you wish your life to go.
You cannot chose whether you wish to follow Jesus or to follow Satan.

Is that the stance you are standing on?

 

[NightTwister]

So you do not have the ability to chose how you wish your life to go.
You cannot chose whether you wish to follow Jesus or to follow Satan.

Is that the stance you are standing on?

Of course I chose. I chose based on my nature.

 

[GaryA]

Faith is dead, means not saved.

To each his/her own - carry on...