The Great Tribulation Began in 70 AD and Continues to This Very Day

[Researcher]

Your claim that the Great Tribulation was fulfilled in AD 70...

Not fulfilled but began. I believe the world is still in the Great Tribulation, i.e., Times of the Gentiles. It's more about Israelites and Jews going through tribulation than Christians.

Jesus placed His coming after the tribulation: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven… and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:29–30) NONE OF THIS DID HAPPEN AS OF YET

Agreed.

...did the sun darken? Did the moon not give its light? Did the stars fall from heaven? etc....

I would say no.

By the way...

I believe Scripture is alluding to the Stars falling from Heaven as fallen angels, which is synonymous with the 'falling away', i.e., the rebellion that is to come once Transhumanism (Mark of the Beast) comes into play.

Falling Away = Fallen Angels:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Days of Noe. Return of the Giants.

Daniel describes a time of trouble unlike anything before it, followed by resurrection : And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered… And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.” (Daniel 12:1–2)

See my post #7.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

It is my opinion that the Rapture and the Day of the Lord happens simultaneously and unexpectedly:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Those who believe everything is fine because some imaginary 'seven year' or 'three and a half year' period of time has not begun will be in for a rude awakening if they are not saved.

Oh okay. Yeah, I agree with that, that Jesus returns and collects us on the same day. But I do believe we will go through the great tribulation (distinct from normal tribulation) before He returns.

Just so "NO!" to the mark of beast, everyone! Don't be afraid of that which can kill the body - absent from the body, present with the Lord!

 

[timf]

The flood killed way more than a fourth.

The vision in Revelation is future.

 

[HeIsHere]

The Great Tribulation is not something that is future, but rather something that has been ongoing now for almost two thousand years.

Just a few verses are all we need to see how this works:

Matthew 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

The Abomination was the Crucifixion. The desolation is what happened a short while later in 70 AD. That leads us to the next verse:

Matthew 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The destruction of Jerusalem was the beginning of the Great Tribulation. This is also synonymous with the 'times of the Gentiles'. Once the times of the Gentiles is over, we get to this verse:

Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The phrase 'those days' is again referring to the nearly two thousand years since the destruction of Jerusalem. After the Great Tribulation is over, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, etc. In other words, the Rapture is what we are waiting for and after that comes terrible destruction as the Man of Sin is revealed. The Mark of the Beast is of course still future as this is not a Preterist teaching, nor am I a Preterist.

Do you agree/disagree? Either way, smash that like button, be sure and hit 'subscribe' and don't forget to leave a comment in the section below.

Disagree.
I have unsubscribed!

 

[Researcher]

The flood killed way more than a fourth.

The vision in Revelation is future.

Not sure what your point is?

 

[Researcher]

Disagree.
I have unsubscribed!

It would be nice if some of you took the time to show *why* you disagree.

 

[Researcher]

For those of you that take this topic as seriously as I do, please allow me to show you a major mistake that you have made:

Daniel 10:20 - Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

There are Princes that govern over a territory and time period. Daniel 10:20 refers to two of them in order of succession:

• Prince of Persia
• Prince of Grecia

Here is the important part:

Daniel 10:21 - But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Michael does not 'stand' only one time and that's it. Michael does battle over and over.

Now PAY ATTENTION!

Who comes after Grecia? Rome.

Thus, Michael stands yet again to battle the Prince of Rome who is referred to as the Little Horn of Daniel 8.

Again, THEY ARE IN ORDER OF SUCCESSION!

• Prince of Persia
• Prince of Grecia
• Prince of Rome (i.e. Little Horn of Daniel 8)

We are not waiting for Michael to stand up and fight the Caesars. It happened already, obviously.

HERE:

Daniel 12:1 - And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

'That time' began with Octavian becoming emperor. The Little Horn of Daniel 8 is the Roman Empire that began after the Battles of Actium and Alexandrea. Learn some basic history. Note that the Little Horn of Daniel 9 is still future. Deadly wound is healed, etc.

Again, this is a HUGE error that all of you have made. You have assumed wrongly. Do any of you care?

Once thing is for sure...

When the Devil throws fiery darts at you to challenge your beliefs, you will fail miserably.

 

[timf]

Not sure what your point is?

Response to "Days of Noe."

 

[HeIsHere]

It would be nice if some of you took the time to show *why* you disagree.

Isaiah 13

10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.

do we take this literally as well, do we go back to bows?

18 Their bows will strike down the young men;
they will have no mercy on infants,
nor will they look with compassion on children.
19 Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms,
the pride and glory of the Babylonians,
will be overthrown by God
like Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[Researcher]

do we take this literally as well, do we go back to bows?

Good point. If we go back a few verses, we find this:

Isaiah 11:6-9 - The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Has that happened yet?

I would say that one needs to rightly divide fulfilled vs. future prophecy with great care.

 

[Researcher]

Again, THEY ARE IN ORDER OF SUCCESSION!

• Prince of Persia
• Prince of Grecia
• Prince of Rome (i.e. Little Horn of Daniel 8)

We are not waiting for Michael to stand up and fight the Caesars. It happened already, obviously.

I should have mentioned that each of those are a head of the Beast.

• Prince of Persia = Fourth Head of the Beast
• Prince of Grecia = Fifth Head of the Beast
• Prince of Rome (i.e. Little Horn of Daniel 8) = Sixth Head of the Beast

Michael stood up each time to battle them.

 

[OMC]

I should have mentioned that each of those are a head of the Beast.

• Prince of Persia = Fourth Head of the Beast
• Prince of Grecia = Fifth Head of the Beast
• Prince of Rome (i.e. Little Horn of Daniel 8) = Sixth Head of the Beast

Michael stood up each time to battle them.

I understand the succession argument you're making, and I agree that Daniel 10 presents the prince of Persia followed by the prince of Grecia.
My hesitation isn't with the succession itself, but with the identification of each prince as a specific head of the beast and every instance of Michael's activity as the same event as Daniel 12:1.

From my perspective, the text clearly shows Michael opposing these spiritual powers behind earthly kingdoms.
What I'm less certain about is that Daniel explicitly tells us:
Prince of Persia = Fourth Head
Prince of Grecia = Fifth Head
Prince of Rome = Sixth Head
Those connections may be correct, but they still need to be demonstrated rather than assumed.

I think you've made a good case that there is a pattern of succession.
I'm simply asking whether the text itself makes the beast-head identifications, or whether that's the framework we're using to connect the dots.
There's a difference between seeing a pattern and proving every element of the pattern.

 

[Psalm1]

It would be nice if some of you took the time to show *why* you disagree.

No ac yet
No trib yet

 

[HeIsHere]

Good point. If we go back a few verses, we find this:

Isaiah 11:6-9 - The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Has that happened yet?

I would say that one needs to rightly divide fulfilled vs. future prophecy with great care.

Yes that where I depart from you OP, you correctly identify the abomination that causes desolation and then present this idea we are in the great tribulation.

Once again you seems to think the above passage is literal.

So it is not what is future and what is past ...it actually is what is literal language and what are abstract concepts wrapped in metaphorical/figurative language.

So tell us how do you decide if the passage is literal (plain sense of the words) or not?

 

[Roger316]

The Great Tribulation is not something that is future, but rather something that has been ongoing now for almost two thousand years.

Just a few verses are all we need to see how this works:

Matthew 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

The Abomination was the Crucifixion. The desolation is what happened a short while later in 70 AD. That leads us to the next verse:

Matthew 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The destruction of Jerusalem was the beginning of the Great Tribulation. This is also synonymous with the 'times of the Gentiles'. Once the times of the Gentiles is over, we get to this verse:

Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The phrase 'those days' is again referring to the nearly two thousand years since the destruction of Jerusalem. After the Great Tribulation is over, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, etc. In other words, the Rapture is what we are waiting for and after that comes terrible destruction as the Man of Sin is revealed. The Mark of the Beast is of course still future as this is not a Preterist teaching, nor am I a Preterist.

Do you agree/disagree? Either way, smash that like button, be sure and hit 'subscribe' and don't forget to leave a comment in the section below.

I agree with this perspective.

 

[Roger316]

This is what is soon to come:

Matthew 24:37-39 - But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

In other words, while so many of you are waiting for a "future Great Tribulation" that will never come, you will be completely caught off guard and *BAM*... sudden destruction.

You will have no time for any 'last minute repenting'. It will just happen.

The sudden destruction in this passage points to Israel again, not the entire world.

 

[HeIsHere]

The sudden destruction in this passage points to Israel again, not the entire world.

So they are judged twice?

 

[Roger316]

It is my opinion that the Rapture and the Day of the Lord happens simultaneously and unexpectedly:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Those who believe everything is fine because some imaginary 'seven year' or 'three and a half year' period of time has not begun will be in for a rude awakening if they are not saved.

If the Day of the Lord were a play, the rapture would be the second act.

 

[Roger316]

So they are judged twice?

The events described in Mathew 24:15-20 (A) took place during the Jewish wars with the Romans in 70AD, which was God's Judgment. The events described in Matthew 24:36-40 (B), which is yet in our future, are not a judgment of God; they are a test.

(A) Judgment ------> Jerusalem
(B) Test of faith <----- Jerusalem

Think of it this way, Both (A) and (B) can be understood from the perspective of two moments of escape: (A) is the escape FEOM Jerusalem, and (B) is the escape TO Jerusalem.

(A) Judgment
In this case, Jesus warns the people to flee Jerusalem and head into the mountains because, as Daniel says, the temple and the city will be destroyed and come to utter ruin. People are not to get their stuff from the house or come in from the fields. They should pray that their flight not be on a Sabbath.

(B) Test of faith
I call this a test of faith because that is how it is pictured in the prophets Malachi and Joel. Both of these prophets talk about fire and burning, when the entire land will be destroyed by fire. In this situation, the people are to flee their own homes in haste to travel to Jerusalem for safety. Just as in situation (A), people are not to get their stuff from the house or come in from the fields. They escape destruction by traveling to Jerusalem as fast as they can. (Isaiah also talks about fires and survivors.)

Apparently, this is the point at which Israel's enemies come to Jerusalem to wipe out the Jews once and for all. And this is when God protects her and when Jesus returns.

(A) Judgment
(B) Test of faith

 

[Roger316]

Response to "Days of Noe."

It is a common misconception that Jesus was describing the times associated with the days of Noah. But he focused not on the times of Noah, but on the fact that the Judgment came at an unexpected time, catching people off guard.

What makes the Great Tribulation great is not the intensity of the difficulty, but its duration. We know Jesus focuses on the duration of the tribulation, not its difficulty, when he says the days would be cut short.