What folks have learned via CC discussions:

[Inquisitor]

Christian Chat exists for the purpose of providing Christians the opportunity of learning from one another as they discuss their understanding of Scripture. I think it might be interesting and edifying for us all to share significant truths we have learned that have caused us to amend some belief(s).

For example, being raised in a Baptist church from infancy, I had always believed that souls are saved by faith or trusting in Jesus as Savior,
but while discussing the role of faith and works regarding salvation after joining CC, I gained the following insight:

There is no qualitative difference between a soul's/sinner's faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and a saint's/saved sinner's faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living, but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s lifetime. (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17)

Please share one example at a time of how participation on CC has blessed your life with new or amended understanding of God's Word.
Thanks!

You stated that you were raised in a Baptist church.

I never knew how diverse the Baptist church really was and I even attended a Baptist church, for a short time many years ago.

On CF I had to adjust to how many folk mentioned membership of the Baptist church but believed in different doctrine.

Here is a brief description of the diversity of the Baptist church by AI.

Yes, Baptist churches vary widely in their types, soteriology (the theology of salvation), and eschatology (end-times views),
including a mix of Calvinist and non-Calvinist congregations. [1, 2, 3]
Because individual Baptist churches are self-governing and independent, beliefs can change significantly from one church to the next. [1, 2, 3]

Types of Baptist Churches
Baptist groups have split or formed distinct traditions over history: [1]

• • General Baptists: These churches historically taught that Jesus died for all people. Many are known today as Free Will Baptists. [1]
  • Particular or Reformed Baptists: These churches follow strict Calvinist theology and often use historic confessions like the 1689 London Baptist Confession. [1, 2, 3]
  • Independent Baptists: These local churches answer to no higher denomination or convention. They often hold strict views on biblical interpretation and tradition. [1]
  • Convention Baptists: Large groups like the Southern Baptist Convention or American Baptist Churches include a mix of different local theological views under a shared umbrella. [1, 2]

Soteriology (Calvinist vs. Non-Calvinist)
Baptists are deeply divided on how people are saved:

• • Calvinist Baptists: They believe God chooses specific people ("the elect") for salvation before time begins. They teach that true believers will never lose their faith. [1]
  • Arminian or Free Will Baptists: They believe that anyone can freely choose to accept or reject God's grace, and that a person can turn away from the faith. [1]
  • The Middle Ground: Many mainstream Baptists hold a popular view called "Once Saved, Always Saved." They agree that a true believer cannot lose salvation, but they do not practice full Calvinism. [1]

Eschatology (End Times)
Baptists do not share just one view of the future or the end of the world: [1, 2]

• • Dispensationalism: Many conservative and independent Baptists expect a literal "Rapture" where believers leave the earth before a time of great trouble (tribulation). [1, 2]
  • Amillennialism: Some Reformed or traditional Baptists teach that the "thousand years" in Revelation is symbolic of Christ's current spiritual reign rather than a future earthly kingdom. [1, 2]
  • Historic Premillennialism: Others believe Christians will go through a period of suffering on earth before Jesus returns physically to set up His kingdom.

End AI.

The full realization of how certain individuals within church history, in effect, had created entire church movements. With, at times,
very diverse doctrinal foundations. Even the word 'Baptist' is a red flag illustrating a preoccupation with a form of water baptism.

How can this person or that person in Christian history influence Christian doctrine so powerfully?

That forced a deeper focus on what is written in the text versus what people believe to be true in the text itself.

Which in turn forced me to read the text at an even deeper level to try and understand how is that possible?

Sola Scripture but not really Sola Scripture?

 

[GWH]

You stated that you were raised in a Baptist church.

I never knew how diverse the Baptist church really was and I even attended a Baptist church, for a short time many years ago.

On CF I had to adjust to how many folk mentioned membership of the Baptist church but believed in different doctrine.

Here is a brief description of the diversity of the Baptist church by AI.

Yes, Baptist churches vary widely in their types, soteriology (the theology of salvation), and eschatology (end-times views),
including a mix of Calvinist and non-Calvinist congregations. [1, 2, 3]
Because individual Baptist churches are self-governing and independent, beliefs can change significantly from one church to the next. [1, 2, 3]

Types of Baptist Churches
Baptist groups have split or formed distinct traditions over history: [1]

• • General Baptists: These churches historically taught that Jesus died for all people. Many are known today as Free Will Baptists. [1]
  • Particular or Reformed Baptists: These churches follow strict Calvinist theology and often use historic confessions like the 1689 London Baptist Confession. [1, 2, 3]
  • Independent Baptists: These local churches answer to no higher denomination or convention. They often hold strict views on biblical interpretation and tradition. [1]
  • Convention Baptists: Large groups like the Southern Baptist Convention or American Baptist Churches include a mix of different local theological views under a shared umbrella. [1, 2]

Soteriology (Calvinist vs. Non-Calvinist)
Baptists are deeply divided on how people are saved:

• • Calvinist Baptists: They believe God chooses specific people ("the elect") for salvation before time begins. They teach that true believers will never lose their faith. [1]
  • Arminian or Free Will Baptists: They believe that anyone can freely choose to accept or reject God's grace, and that a person can turn away from the faith. [1]
  • The Middle Ground: Many mainstream Baptists hold a popular view called "Once Saved, Always Saved." They agree that a true believer cannot lose salvation, but they do not practice full Calvinism. [1]

Eschatology (End Times)
Baptists do not share just one view of the future or the end of the world: [1, 2]

• • Dispensationalism: Many conservative and independent Baptists expect a literal "Rapture" where believers leave the earth before a time of great trouble (tribulation). [1, 2]
  • Amillennialism: Some Reformed or traditional Baptists teach that the "thousand years" in Revelation is symbolic of Christ's current spiritual reign rather than a future earthly kingdom. [1, 2]
  • Historic Premillennialism: Others believe Christians will go through a period of suffering on earth before Jesus returns physically to set up His kingdom.

End AI.

The full realization of how certain individuals within church history, in effect, had created entire church movements. With, at times,
very diverse doctrinal foundations. Even the word 'Baptist' is a red flag illustrating a preoccupation with a form of water baptism.

How can this person or that person in Christian history influence Christian doctrine so powerfully?

That forced a deeper focus on what is written in the text versus what people believe to be true in the text itself.

Which in turn forced me to read the text at an even deeper level to try and understand how is that possible?

Sola Scripture but not really Sola Scripture?

Per the description I was raised as a OSAS Southern Baptist that never said a word about eschatology,
but my guess is that they favored that taught by Paul rather than Rev. My pastor/church taught water baptism
as symbolic of saving faith without saying much about how baptism with the HS is related.

I came to realize that their denomination's Baptist Faith and Message was NOT a kerygmatic creed stating only
God's requirement for salvation (faith), but instead it included many didachaic or secondary messages/beliefs.

It was apostasy by a friend (not sure if anyone told her that was okay because she was still saved) who was the
daughter of a missionary that prompted me to begin reading Scripture for deeper understanding circa 1967--
and I have not stopped learning, as I am sharing on this thread.

 

[Lanolin]

Baptists have a basic understanding of the Bible but I understand it to be very surface level understanding from the ones I've attended.

Other churches can be extreme though and theres as many different theologies as there are ice-cream flavours. You just have to pick the ones you like it seems to me, and find the flavours that go together.

Some come with all sorts of sprinkles and hidden gummy bears in them. And who eats the neopolitan but only the chocolate and leaves the strawberry and vanilla to someone else?

 

[Burn1986]

Christian Chat exists for the purpose of providing Christians the opportunity of learning from one another as they discuss their understanding of Scripture. I think it might be interesting and edifying for us all to share significant truths we have learned that have caused us to amend some belief(s).

For example, being raised in a Baptist church from infancy, I had always believed that souls are saved by faith or trusting in Jesus as Savior,
but while discussing the role of faith and works regarding salvation after joining CC, I gained the following insight:

There is no qualitative difference between a soul's/sinner's faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and a saint's/saved sinner's faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living, but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s lifetime. (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17)

Please share one example at a time of how participation on CC has blessed your life with new or amended understanding of God's Word.
Thanks!

We’ve also learned that about 98% of christians/posters on this forum never make it past salvation, where they stagnantly live and debate. Merit and credibility are given to the one who simply “wins” an argument. Addressing real world issues, or any talk about hearing God, or anything requiring faith after salvation are looked down upon.

 

[GWH]

Baptists have a basic understanding of the Bible but I understand it to be very surface level understanding from the ones I've attended.

Other churches can be extreme though and theres as many different theologies as there are ice-cream flavours. You just have to pick the ones you like it seems to me, and find the flavours that go together.

Some come with all sorts of sprinkles and hidden gummy bears in them. And who eats the neopolitan but only the chocolate and leaves the strawberry and vanilla to someone else?

Yes, because what almost everyone fails to realize is that every church should be a mini seminary. The only pastor I have known who taught that way was Robert Thieme.

 

[GWH]

We’ve also learned that about 98% of christians/posters on this forum never make it past salvation, where they stagnantly live and debate. Merit and credibility are given to the one who simply “wins” an argument. Addressing real world issues, or any talk about hearing God, or anything requiring faith after salvation are looked down upon.

Yes, see what I just posted in #165. Most people seem content with remaining baby Christians instead of wanting to be fed meat and become mature witnesses.

 

[GWH]

Truth that I have had reinforced via CC discussions is that right reasoning guided by the Holy Spirit gives insights where Scripture is silent regarding various questions and modern issues (JN 16:13). Such divine logic/guidance yields a fuller understanding of God's Word via discerning what is implied as well as exegeting what is specified (Matt. 5:20-22).

 

[Burn1986]

That I’m rusty on plain arguing

 

[GWH]

That I’m rusty on plain arguing

Logical reasoning is good, but not emotional arguing.
The point of this OP is to persevere in improving our reasoning regarding various issues.
Learning/improving our thinking/opinions is what makes discussions on CC interesting.

 

[ZNP]

That I’m rusty on plain arguing

Iron sharpens Iron.

 

[GWH]

These threads get buried quickly, so I want to repost what folks have learned via discussions on CC.

#1 - GWH, re persevering faith
#2 - passion84god, re "meet"
#5 - seoulsearch, re believer's baptism
#12 - Aussie52, re patience with haters
#20 - Chester, re need to value meaning of Scripture over church doctrine
#25- GWH, 1Cor. 2 urges Christians to cooperate with the Holy Spirit
#28 - GWH, need to add #6 re general revelation to my proposed creed
#34 - PaulThompson, arguing is futile
#42 - GWH, Cyrene was a town that traded in silphium, a plant prized for various uses
#52 - ZNP, truths one assumed all Christians believe are challenged
#56 - dkontner, modern day Pharisees and Sadducees exist on CC
#57 - Churchgoer, you cannot convert people by debate, although it can be fun
#99 - GWH, many people hate learning acronyms
#142 - GWH, the fundamental kerygmatic fact may be imagined as a fractal metaphorically.

Every now and then we need to update the list of what folks have learned:

#1 - GWH, re persevering faith
#2 - passion84god, re "meet"
#5 - seoulsearch, re believer's baptism
#12 - Aussie52, re patience with haters
#20 - Chester, re need to value meaning of Scripture over church doctrine
#25- GWH, 1Cor. 2 urges Christians to cooperate with the Holy Spirit
#28 - GWH, need to add #6 re general revelation to my proposed creed
#34 - PaulThompson, arguing is futile
#42 - GWH, Cyrene was a town that traded in silphium, a plant prized for various uses
#52 - ZNP, truths one assumed all Christians believe are challenged
#56 - dkontner, modern day Pharisees and Sadducees exist on CC
#57 - Churchgoer, you cannot convert people by debate, although it can be fun
#99 - GWH, many people hate learning acronyms
#142 - GWH, the fundamental kerygmatic fact may be imagined as a fractal metaphorically.
#146 - GWH, Oba. 15. is the OT verse that Paul probably had in mind as he wrote Rom. 2:6 re karma-like judgment.
#151 - ZNP, Many more people view threads than comment on them.
#156 - GWH, Gen. 3:1-6 hints that moral accountability occurs when kids perceive God and nakedness (by age 8, prior to puberty).
#157 - GWH, 1Cor. 3:14-15 indicates that Christians are saved if heresy/blasphemy is unintentional or due to ignorance.
#158 - GWH, godly parents typically teach children about sin via some form of God's Golden Rule (Matt. 7:12).
#167 - GWH, Matt: 5:20-22 indicates that right reasoning guided by the Holy Spirit gives insights about what is implied.

Okay, let us continue learning...

 

[GWH]

Yesterday I learned a new way of describing the destruction/annihilation of souls mentioned in John 17:12, Rom. 9:22,
Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14: hell is eternal punishMENT, not eternal punishING.

(I had already figured out that eternal torment would be warranted only for those whose sins were infinite,
which is impossible for temporal mortals, so Satan's sojourn in hell will seem eternal, assuming his
sin/rebellion preceded sinful humanity by eons.)

 

[ZNP]

Yesterday I learned a new way of describing the destruction/annihilation of souls mentioned in John 17:12, Rom. 9:22,
Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14: hell is eternal punishMENT, not eternal punishING.

(I had already figured out that eternal torment would be warranted only for those whose sins were infinite,
which is impossible for temporal mortals, so Satan's sojourn in hell will seem eternal, assuming his
sin/rebellion preceded sinful humanity by eons.)

John 5:24: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

According to this verse a temporal mortal can do something that will have eternal consequences, that is infinite consequences. So if a temporal human can hear and believe the words that would cause them to receive eternal life, what would be the consequences of someone who prevented someone from hearing and believing in Jesus so that they did not receive eternal life? Wouldn't those consequences also be eternal, that is infinite?

We have museums so that we can learn from the past. What if hell is a "museum" so that God's children can learn from all those that rejected Jesus and took the broad way that leads to destruction. Wouldn't you want to preserve that information for eternity?

 

[ZNP]

It is important to understand the punishment in hell because a wrong understanding is also confusing.

People describe hell as very black darkness, that is, the absence of Light because God is light.

Others describe it as pure hopelessness because God is hope.

Others say you immediately feel the total lack of love because God is love.

In the New Testament Jesus describes this man in hell begging for a drop of cool water on his tongue. Jesus is the living water.

The punishment is that these people get what they asked for, they get to live in a realm without God.

They rejected Jesus, that was their choice. They rejected and rebelled against God, that was their choice. I believe no one can go to hell unless they choose to. For example, they rejected the gospel or they rejected God.

So hell helps us to appreciate God and Jesus. Instead of taking something like water for granted, or taking the love of our parents for granted.

 

[ThomasMatthew]

I have learnt that there are a lot of abusive keyboard cowboys on CC.

"There's no fool like an old fool"
Something I picked up on since my time here.

 

[ZNP]

I have learned that the book of Proverbs is right.

That book tells us to pursue Lady Wisdom and not to have anything to do with Lady Folly.

There are many people on the broad way that leads to destruction, but a good many of those people are hypocrites. They act like they are on the narrow way that leads to life, but in reality they aren't.

1. Preparation vs. Passive Clamor

• Lady Wisdom is diligent and orderly. She actively works to build her house on seven pillars, prepares a rich feast of meat, mixes her wine, and sets her table. She sends out her servants to invite guests with dignity and purpose.
• Lady Folly is loud, sedentary, and ignorant. She does no actual preparation. Instead, she sits passively at the doorway of her house or on a seat at the high places of the city, loudly calling out to passersby. She relies on seduction and noise rather than substance.

2. Honest Sustenance vs. Deceptive Secrecy

• Lady Wisdom offers legitimate, nourishing sustenance. She openly invites people to eat her bread and drink her wine, which represents insight, mature substance, and communion with God. [1, 2, 3]
• Lady Folly offers a cheap, hidden counterfeit. She entices people with the promise of instant gratification, famously whispering, "Stolen water is sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant". She relies on the thrill of forbidden, hidden pleasures to bypass a person's conscience.

3. Alignment with Truth and Correction

• Lady Wisdom is rooted in the "fear of the Lord." Her invitation requires humility, self-awareness, and a willingness to leave simple ways behind. Those who follow her are teachable, value correction, and grow wiser over time.
• Lady Folly preys on unholy desires and lacks knowledge. She appeals to sinful passions, pride, and the illusion that actions have no consequences. Her followers are often mockers and scoffers who refuse instruction.

Summary of Differences
Ultimately, Proverbs teaches that the primary tool of discernment is understanding the final destination of each path. While both women sound welcoming at the crossroads, Lady Wisdom leads to life and blessing, while Lady Folly's guests end up in the realm of the dead.

 

[GWH]

John 5:24: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

According to this verse a temporal mortal can do something that will have eternal consequences, that is infinite consequences. So if a temporal human can hear and believe the words that would cause them to receive eternal life, what would be the consequences of someone who prevented someone from hearing and believing in Jesus so that they did not receive eternal life? Wouldn't those consequences also be eternal, that is infinite?

We have museums so that we can learn from the past. What if hell is a "museum" so that God's children can learn from all those that rejected Jesus and took the broad way that leads to destruction. Wouldn't you want to preserve that information for eternity?

Yes, there is no problem viewing heaven as eternal, but only viewing hell as eternal torment, because God is just,
and infinite pain for finite sins is patently unjust.

Instead of needing a museum to remind us of the consequence for rejecting God, I believe we will have perfect memories.

Yes, sometimes hell is described as fire and sometimes as darkness. In this song I describe it as hate and boredom (nothing new):

https://groovykerygma.bandcamp.com/track/late-last-night-revelation

 

[ZNP]

Yes, there is no problem viewing heaven as eternal, but only viewing hell as eternal torment, because God is just,
and infinite pain for finite sins is patently unjust.

Instead of needing a museum to remind us of the consequence for rejecting God, I believe we will have perfect memories.

Yes, sometimes hell is described as fire and sometimes as darkness. In this song I describe it as hate and boredom (nothing new):

https://groovykerygma.bandcamp.com/track/late-last-night-revelation

Two things have helped me, first if a thief is caught he must repay 4x or 5x. So if Satan has deceived some into going to hell not only must he give up those souls but 4 or 5x as many, even if the others were not deceived.

I suspect this takes place prior to the millennial kingdom. So those people deceived by Satan get a second chance, not to become a child of God, the age of grace will be over, but to not go to hell.

Second you are not viewing hell correctly. Yes, it is eternal torment, but the reason is not because of God's punishment but because they have gone to a place where God is not. And they have gone to a place that was prepared for the angels that rebelled. So you are forced to live with some very horrible creatures for eternity and the torment is because God is not there. That was the choice of those in hell. No God means no light, no love, no hope, no faith, no forgiveness, no mercy, no living water, etc.

 

[GWH]

Two things have helped me, first if a thief is caught he must repay 4x or 5x. So if Satan has deceived some into going to hell not only must he give up those souls but 4 or 5x as many, even if the others were not deceived.

I suspect this takes place prior to the millennial kingdom. So those people deceived by Satan get a second chance, not to become a child of God, the age of grace will be over, but to not go to hell.

Second you are not viewing hell correctly. Yes, it is eternal torment, but the reason is not because of God's punishment but because they have gone to a place where God is not. And they have gone to a place that was prepared for the angels that rebelled. So you are forced to live with some very horrible creatures for eternity and the torment is because God is not there. That was the choice of those in hell. No God means no light, no love, no hope, no faith, no forgiveness, no mercy, no living water, etc.

That is a novel theory about sinners getting a second chance, but there is no mention of such in Scripture.

Your reason for viewing eternal torment as just does not pass the karma test indicated by Rom. 2:5-11
as well as the justness test indicated by logic: only infinite sin warrants eternal torment.
Nor do you acknowledge Scripture teaching the destruction of souls: John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14).
Consider what Mag just taught me: Hell is eternal punishMENT, not eternal punishING.

 

[ZNP]

That is a novel theory about sinners getting a second chance, but there is no mention of such in Scripture.

Your reason for viewing eternal torment as just does not pass the karma test indicated by Rom. 2:5-11
as well as the justness test indicated by logic: only infinite sin warrants eternal torment.
Nor do you acknowledge Scripture teaching the destruction of souls: John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14).
Consider what Mag just taught me: Hell is eternal punishMENT, not eternal punishING.

Sure there is a mention of this.

1. Satan is a thief.

2. God operates according to the law. That is why people will "sell their souls to the devil", it is a legal contract.

3. If a thief is caught stealing and found guilty in court then they must repay 4x or 5x depending on if it is a sheep or an ox.

It is reasonable to think that since Satan is a thief some of the souls he has were stolen and therefore he must repay not just the stolen ones but 4-5x as many souls.

Of course my reason passes your "karma" test. God is righteous and just, if someone chooses to live in a place without God then they can. But that means they live in a place without love, hope, faith, light, life, water, etc. Since our soul is eternal they will live there for eternity.

As for the whole punishment vs punishing, I consider that simply word play. God sends them to hell, but once in hell they are tormented because they realize what they gave up and how much God was good to them and they didn't appreciate it.