When a being possesses life inside the womb
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Every Christian is allowed to believe as they wish regarding when life begins, but we live in a society that grants people the right to believe what they want to believe, not have another's beliefs forced on them. Or would you prefer that non-Christians be allowed to force their opinions on Christians?
So sad that "Christians" feel they have the right to force their opinions on others, God offers Himself to all, He forces Himself on no one.
No doubt, as they have always attempted to do.
The brain is an organ; it is not the mind (and is definitely not the spirit).
Man's breath is not life. Only God's breath is life, which was given in the garden and is allowed to carry on to this day.
Egg and sperm are both a-live. No new life is created at "conception."
Yes, and the entire thread.
...to which my reply is relevant.
This is the bugaboo, i.e. synthesis that deceives.
Life does not "begin" at conception, it continues.
I will start here:
| Genesis 2:4 - These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, |
The word 'generations' is special. It mainly has to do with human genealogy and genetics. But look closely. The heavens and earth have genealogy and genetics too. This is a major key to answering your question. God is teaching us that he is using heaven and earth as types and shadows of what goes on in our very DNA, in our genomes, in our genetics, in our tables of the heart, in our souls. Why is God teaching this? Because that is where sin originates from. God is showing us how our DNA became corrupted in the Garden of Eden and how he will repair it one day. Salvation is a biology/genetics issue, i.e., generations of Heaven and Earth.
Continuing:
| Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. |
What is 'dust'? Is it just dirt? No. Dust is what everyone becomes once the body is dissolved:
| Genesis 3:19 - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. |
Let's use common sense. Do we all just turn into dirt and that's the end of the story? Of course not. The 'dust' that all will return to is the Genome, the Word of God that is made flesh plus the Spirit. Some go to Hell. Some go to Abraham's Bosom. Either way, we all become spirit and soul minus the body either by resurrection or rapture. 'Dust' comes *first*.
Dust as Seed:
| Genesis 13:16 - And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. |
| Genesis 28:14 - And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. |
Scripture associates 'dust' with 'seed'. What is seed?
| Luke 8:11 - Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. |
The Seed is the Word. We call it a Genome now. Jesus is the Word of God. He is Abraham's Seed. Jesus is God's Soul. Jesus is inside the 'bosom of the Father'. Jesus is in the Tables of the Father's Heart. Jesus is the Word Made Flesh.
Here is the part only a handful of people know...
The Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil are two choices of body types. They determine what 'clothes' God will put on a person.
Tree of Life: Clothes a person with a body of glory, Wisdom and immortality
Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil: Clothes a person with death and the corrupt flesh and blood that we have now
They are symbolic of the zygotes one makes a covenant with to be conceived. That's the big mystery solved. They are a 'one shot deal'. Once one partakes, that's it. One cannot partake of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, be clothed with a body of corruption, then partake of the Tree of Life:
| Genesis 3:22 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: |
Immortality in a body of sin is a major no no. Think Mark of the Beast.
*Warning to all reading this post* - Don't go any further if you are on the baby's milk.
I am about to describe things belonging to the Meat of the Word, i.e., euphemism, i.e., adult education. This will be extremely difficult for most to receive. Again, to the members reading this, don't freak out as so many do.
Anyhow...
If we use even more Scripture to fill in the blanks, we discover that Mystery Babylon is the archetype for our corrupt DNA on our mother's side. She was there in the Garden of Eden. She was there from the beginning.
Now, pay attention:
| Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: |
The Golden Cup she holds is the Forbidden Fruit. Yep, the answer was there all along. The contents are literal, as in sperm and ovum mixed together. In other words, the Golden Cup is symbolic of the zygote we were all conceived from. All have partaken as God said in Jeremiah 51:7.
So, who fertilized said zygote? Jesus gives us the answer:
| John 8:44 - Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. |
Jesus was being absolutely literal. Most people have a meltdown when I say this because most people are ultra conceded and full of themselves and believe that they have pure unadulterated genetics. Poppycock. Only the humble and meek will understand the situation we are in. Think about how bad it would be without Jesus to save us from what we are.
Thus, the Devil represents the corrupt genetics we inherited on our father's side. Yep, that's the ultimate symbolism of Satan. Thus, Mystery Babylon and Satan are in the mirror when we look at it. The two became one. We inherited their genetics and are born into sin and death right off the bat.
This is why Salvation is such a huge deal. We have to literally be reconceived into new genetics from Abraham's Seed. After resurrection or Rapture, we must be Born Again through a step-by-step process involving the repairing and upgrading of our Souls, i.e., our Genomes. Gene splicing via the Olive Tree, i.e., the Chromatid, aka, the Two Witnesses:
| Romans 11:23-25 - And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. |
The Two Sticks become one chromosome. Judah and Joseph/Ephraim are symbolic of genetics.
Judah: Masculine/Father
Joseph/Ephraim: Feminine/Mother
Two shall become one. Conception into the Glorified Body.
And there you have it. Mystery solved. Partaking of the Tree of Life will impart to us our new 'covering', our new 'clothes', our new immortal physical bodies. It is a Holy Gene-Splicing operation that we are supposed to be learning about. Like now.
If we fail to learn what to do now, we may not recognize Abraham's Seed that we are supposed to follow into Sarah's 'gates':
| Revelation 7:17 - For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. |
Abraham's Seed must enter her pearly 'gates'...
| Job 3:10 (Brenton Septuagint Translation) - Because it shut not up the gates of my mother's womb, for so it would have removed sorrow from my eyes. |
That's what Gates mean. Twelve manner of 'fruit' on a monthly period symbolizing fertility of the one who was once barren, i.e, Galatians 4:27:
| Revelation 22:2 - In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. |
Tree of Life = Ovum fertilized by Abraham's Seed, i.e., fertilized from the loins of the Father on the Throne. We are being trained on what to do so that we can be Born Again from the Mother of us All. Again, we need to know who to follow, where to go and what to do when we are spirit and soul ready to be clothed.
Again, the crucial question regarding the abortion issue is this: “When does a developing fetus become a human person with the God-given right to civil life so that to kill it is murder and warrants punishment?” Considerations other than the advent of personhood are irrelevant, unless someone would use the same rationale to justify the killing of children and adults.
As a person (which was the case for me as a naive pro-choice person at the age of 24) considers two pictures: one of a seven-month-old fetus in the womb, and one of a seven-month-old preemie outside the womb, he/she should understand that location and mode of breathing is not a valid basis for defining personhood. This realization was so obviously true that I guess you could consider it "forced" on me, so I converted to being "pro-life" as I considered when personhood actually begins.
One consideration was that those who view conception to be the criterion of personhood should mourn miscarriages in the same way they would death of post-birth babies--but few do so. Thus, I considered whether personhood begins the same way doctors use to consider a person to be dead: brain death or the absence of certain brain wave activity detected by an electroencephalogram (EEG).
This stage (“sentience”), of development occurs/is reached when the fetus has brain life of the type detectable in a person deemed to be alive and to have the civil right to life. Thus, everyone should agree that the fetus becomes sentient and a legal person at least by that stage of development.
In the absence of definitive Scriptural teaching, this is only a partial solution, but it is better than allowing abortion throughout pregnancy. It recognizes that people may reasonably disagree about the status of the fetus between conception and sentience. However, some people who pretend to be pro-life prefer to allow all abortions instead of limiting them with this solution.
Implementing this solution requires educating people about fetal development until society develops a consensus that when a fetus becomes sentient, abortion is a type of manslaughter or murder and should be punished appropriately.
As a person (which was the case for me as a naive pro-choice person at the age of 24) considers two pictures: one of a seven-month-old fetus in the womb, and one of a seven-month-old preemie outside the womb, he/she should understand that location and mode of breathing is not a valid basis for defining personhood. This realization was so obviously true that I guess you could consider it "forced" on me, so I converted to being "pro-life" as I considered when personhood actually begins.
One consideration was that those who view conception to be the criterion of personhood should mourn miscarriages in the same way they would death of post-birth babies--but few do so. Thus, I considered whether personhood begins the same way doctors use to consider a person to be dead: brain death or the absence of certain brain wave activity detected by an electroencephalogram (EEG).
This stage (“sentience”), of development occurs/is reached when the fetus has brain life of the type detectable in a person deemed to be alive and to have the civil right to life. Thus, everyone should agree that the fetus becomes sentient and a legal person at least by that stage of development.
In the absence of definitive Scriptural teaching, this is only a partial solution, but it is better than allowing abortion throughout pregnancy. It recognizes that people may reasonably disagree about the status of the fetus between conception and sentience. However, some people who pretend to be pro-life prefer to allow all abortions instead of limiting them with this solution.
Implementing this solution requires educating people about fetal development until society develops a consensus that when a fetus becomes sentient, abortion is a type of manslaughter or murder and should be punished appropriately.
Warning duly noted and I am also aware of Revelations 3:15-16. (See Gen 4:11). There is a difference between a "spirit" and and "soul".
Maybe science and religion can't answer the question on when life begins, and but that doesn't mean there isn't a answer, like the question asked in the NT, "Are there not twelve hours in a day?" But "wir haben es nicht gewußt " isn't a answer.
If science can define when life is present then how would they not know what life is? or when life begins?
The American Medical Association (AMA) does not define a single point or moment when human life or personhood begins, maintaining instead that there is no broad medical or scientific consensus on the matter however views abortion as essential medical care and a human right.
The universal definition of Abortion by the Christian Church is that all human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life. The Holy See
In Judaism, life is broadly understood to begin at birth—specifically at the moment the child's head emerges from the birth canal, or when the baby takes its first breath. However, it places a profound value on potential human life, a developing fetus is not legally considered a full, independent person (nefesh) until it is born. The question on when an abortion is permitted varies between
Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Judaism.
Under Shirai law, abortion in Islam is not categorically permitted or banned, but is regulated based on the stage of pregnancy, the presence of valid legal or medical excuses , and the consensus of Islamic jurisprudence (Fiqh).
The presence of brain wave activity in the cerebral cortex does not in and of itself constitute a living system. Likewise, the lack of brain waves in the cerebral cortex does not in of itself establish brain death.
Brain death is lost of the entire brain function, including the brainstem (Medulla). While the lack of brain waves definitely represents a serious medical condition, one that might have a grave prognosis; however, once the Medulla stops, the entire living system will immediately begin to shut down, including brain waves, and in almost every case is irreversible.
Common examples of reversible problems that could be misdiagnosed as brain death without the loss of function of the Medulla are a very low body temperature (hypothermia), very low blood pressure, very low blood levels of certain substances such as sugar (hypoglycemia) and sodium (hyponatremia), and an overdose of a sedative.
interesting. Thank you.
I agree with born again from Jesus blood, holy spirit enter into us.
I also think spiritual and physical us very much related.
Re "The American Medical Association (AMA) does not define a single point or moment when human life or personhood begins".
Then how do they define the point when life ends/death occurs?!
That's sad you study the Bible on your own. Which is not saying that a person can't learn by reading and studying the scriptures on their own.
So your interpretation is that the man and woman were created first and then clothed in flesh?
The LORD did say that his spirit would not always strive with man, for that he also was flesh. Don't forget what is written is Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh.
That sounds like you are arguing that the gender of the person is determined by the spirit in the flesh, not the sex of the flesh.
A person doesn't have to be absent in the body to be in the presence of the LORD. Even Paul testified that he had been in the presence of the LORD while in the body. On the road to Damascus, Paul said the Holy Ghost who is brighter than the sun at midday appeared before him.
Eve was called the mother of all living because every moving creature that had life and every living creature that moveth come forth from the waters. There is a reason why Genesis 1 uses ELohim (Gods) and Genesis 2 uses LORD God (greater light, lessor light) after creating man; and then the LORD our God becomes one LORD after Woman began multiply upon the face of the earth.
"In the same way"? Did they name the child, bury it in a cemetery, etc.?
We had a miscarriage early in pregnancy but did not mourn much/consider the few weeks old fetus to be a baby.
Some women mourn when they find out they were not pregnant.
This is very subjective.
I agree with @NightTwister concerning this real purpose of this thread and I think @ZuluKono and @WiselyWoven have settled the issue.
You want to look for scriptural loopholes to support early term abortion that is on you, but I think it is very unwise.
Life comes from life, I agree.
However, the cell fusion of the male gamete and female gamete is not the merging of the two gametes into one cell, but is the beginning of a unique new cell (zygote) that is totally distinct from the individual gametes the produced it. So the beginning of that new cell zygote is when the genome is formed.