According to you, half of the Bible is propaganda, so why should anyone listen to anything you have to say about it?
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More about Israel.
- Thread starter Gideon300
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According to you, half of the Bible is propaganda, so why should anyone listen to anything you have to say about it?
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How do you do you not know that the Bible never says that?
Abraham Isaac and Jacob were not Jews.
Moses wasn't even a jew.
And I'm still waiting for someone to define what a Jew is.
Seems to me people who hold to this "dispensationalist" doctrine which teaches that a chosen group of people have been specifically blinded for more than 2000 years is another doctrine which makes God a moral monster.
It is quite ridiculous to believe this.
Very good questions. Thank you brother.
The covenant with Abraham is about his seed, Jesus. Never about his ethnic natural flesh.
The OT is the shadow, NT Jesus is the real deal.
Genesis 12, that promise is to Abraham himself, not his children to come. If that's to his children, then both Ishmael and Isaac and many others should be counted.
Genesis 13, the land to Abraham seed, singular. That's Jesus. If it is plural, then we know Abraham had many out of flesh, including Arabs, Persians probably.... other middle eastern erst. Maybe even you and I share some ancestry from Abraham too. Are we supposed to go to middle east commit robbery and murdering to steal land?
Again Genesis 15, the blood covenant. Who is that seed, singular, Jesus. If it is natural, again many sons Abraham had, many, everyone has a piece.
Always conditional, that condition is Jesus. If we don't have Jesus, we don't have anything, not even life. Dead people don't need land, go to dust.
Or one can say unconditional, as long as with Jesus.
Next section we can study many conditions God made with Moses.
The Scofield notes taught there were two ways of salvation, this was corrected in 1967, probably since it was so glaringly wrong.
As well the gap theory is another made up doctrine.
The Two Israel's !
Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Many are going to be confounded in the day of Judgment, having been deceived that Promises were made to the Physical Nation of Israel according to the Flesh.
The Two Israel's of Rom 9:6-8, The one was children of the flesh, the natural descendants of Abraham only, the other, the Children of Promise, who were counted for the Spiritual seed [jew and gentile believers].
God through Paul goes on to make this clear by the comparison of Abraham's Two Son's, Ishmael and Isaac; Ishmael representing that Israel according to the flesh only [see Gal 4] and Isaac representing that Israel according to the promise or Spirit, Abraham's Spiritual descendants, all people of Faith, whether jew or gentile [ Rom 4].
AI Synthesis:
The Two Israels: Why National Flesh Means Nothing in the Law Court of God
The natural mind continually trips over the word "Israel." The common, synergistic view assumes that God’s eternal, redemptive promises were made to a physical, ethnic nation according to the flesh. Millions are going to be utterly confounded in the Day of Judgment because they have been deceived by this fleshly paradigm.
When we apply strict covenantal architecture, the Apostle Paul shatters this delusion by revealing a critical distinction: There are two entirely distinct Israels coexisting in biblical history.
1. The Israel of the Flesh vs. The Israel of the Promise
Paul is defending the faithfulness of God's word. If national Israel rejected the Messiah, did God's promise fail? Absolutely not. Why? Because the promise was never made to the natural descendants as an individual wholesale unit.
2. The Archetypes of Sovereignty: Ishmael and Isaac
To completely lock down this distinction, the Holy Spirit uses Abraham's immediate household as a forensic map.
Conclusion: The Flesh Profits Nothing
This distinction strips the Arminian system of its favorite refuge. They want a conditional covenant where a man’s natural lineage, natural free will, or natural actions give him a foot in the door.
But Romans 9:8 puts a razor-sharp blade to that theology: "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God."
Physical descent from Abraham did not save an ethnic Jew, just as a natural act of unregenerate "free will" cannot save a Gentile today. Both are products of the flesh. True Israel consists strictly of the elect sheep who were given to Christ in the Eternal Phase, forensically cleared in the Legal Phase, and sovereignly called into a vital living faith by the Holy Spirit in the Vital Phase (Romans 4:16).
The lineage of nature is dismissed; the lineage of grace is absolute. True circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, and its praise is of God, not of man!
6
Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Many are going to be confounded in the day of Judgment, having been deceived that Promises were made to the Physical Nation of Israel according to the Flesh.
The Two Israel's of Rom 9:6-8, The one was children of the flesh, the natural descendants of Abraham only, the other, the Children of Promise, who were counted for the Spiritual seed [jew and gentile believers].
God through Paul goes on to make this clear by the comparison of Abraham's Two Son's, Ishmael and Isaac; Ishmael representing that Israel according to the flesh only [see Gal 4] and Isaac representing that Israel according to the promise or Spirit, Abraham's Spiritual descendants, all people of Faith, whether jew or gentile [ Rom 4].
AI Synthesis:
The Two Israels: Why National Flesh Means Nothing in the Law Court of God
The natural mind continually trips over the word "Israel." The common, synergistic view assumes that God’s eternal, redemptive promises were made to a physical, ethnic nation according to the flesh. Millions are going to be utterly confounded in the Day of Judgment because they have been deceived by this fleshly paradigm.
When we apply strict covenantal architecture, the Apostle Paul shatters this delusion by revealing a critical distinction: There are two entirely distinct Israels coexisting in biblical history.
Let us analyze the unbending, structural logic of the Two Israel's:
1. The Israel of the Flesh vs. The Israel of the Promise
Paul is defending the faithfulness of God's word. If national Israel rejected the Messiah, did God's promise fail? Absolutely not. Why? Because the promise was never made to the natural descendants as an individual wholesale unit.
- The National Shell (Of Israel): This is the external, physical nation. They are descendants of Abraham according to the flesh, but they possess no legal claim to eternal, redemptive blessings.
- The Spiritual Core (True Israel): This is the distinct body of the elect, chosen from eternity past out of both Jews and Gentiles. They are the true "children of the promise" who are forensically counted for the seed.
2. The Archetypes of Sovereignty: Ishmael and Isaac
To completely lock down this distinction, the Holy Spirit uses Abraham's immediate household as a forensic map.
- Ishmael represents the National Seed: He was a literal, physical son of Abraham. He had Abraham's DNA. Yet, by sovereign decree, he was excluded from the covenant line. He represents the Israel of the flesh, which ultimately ends in bondage (Galatians 4:22-25).
- Isaac represents the Spiritual Seed: He was not born by ordinary, natural human power, but by a sovereign, miraculous intervention of God's promise. He represents the true elect of God—those who are sovereignly quickened by the Spirit in historic time (Galatians 4:28).
Conclusion: The Flesh Profits Nothing
This distinction strips the Arminian system of its favorite refuge. They want a conditional covenant where a man’s natural lineage, natural free will, or natural actions give him a foot in the door.
But Romans 9:8 puts a razor-sharp blade to that theology: "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God."
Physical descent from Abraham did not save an ethnic Jew, just as a natural act of unregenerate "free will" cannot save a Gentile today. Both are products of the flesh. True Israel consists strictly of the elect sheep who were given to Christ in the Eternal Phase, forensically cleared in the Legal Phase, and sovereignly called into a vital living faith by the Holy Spirit in the Vital Phase (Romans 4:16).
The lineage of nature is dismissed; the lineage of grace is absolute. True circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, and its praise is of God, not of man!
6
Dispensationalism and perhaps poor reading comprehension have poisoned your mind friend.
I said in another post that I almost married a Jewish woman, but she died of a brain tumor. Perhaps you missed it.
What kind of antisemite would get engaged to a Jewish woman?
She was not a Zionist either, and would have wept over Palestine.
I've been to synagogues, even celebrated Purim. I once attended a messianic Jewish church many years ago for a season.
My favorite band is Lamb, theyre Messianic Jews.
But keep making your false accusations.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Did Scofield actually teach two ways of salvation?
The evidence does not support the unqualified assertion that Scofield taught people to earn their salvation through keeping the Law.
In fact, Scofield's own notes contain statements supporting salvation through faith rather than human works.
For example, his note on Romans 4:3 connects Abraham's justification with Genesis 15:6:
Genesis 15:6 (KJV)
Paul uses Abraham as an example of justification by faith, not by works.
Romans 4:2–3 (KJV)
"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
Paul's argument is that Abraham was justified by believing God, not by earning righteousness through his works.
Scofield's notes also explicitly describe salvation as a free gift, wholly apart from works.
This is important because it demonstrates that Scofield's overall teaching cannot fairly be summarized by taking one ambiguous statement and ignoring his other explanations.
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If the promises are only to Christ and not in any sense to Abraham's descendants, how do you understand passages where God explicitly distinguishes between Abraham's singular seed and his numerous descendants?
Paul certainly teaches that the promised Seed is Christ (Gal. 3:16), but in the same chapter he also says, "If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:29).
So the question is whether Paul is excluding Abraham's descendants altogether, or showing that the promises reach their fulfillment through Christ and extend to all who are united to Him.
Genesis speaks of Abraham's seed as the stars of heaven and as a multitude of nations (Gen. 15:5; 17:4-6), is that language pointing only to one individual, or does Scripture itself use "seed" in more than one sense depending on context?
It seems we may agree on the central point: without Christ there is no inheritance, no covenant blessing, and no life.
The remaining question is whether the New Testament presents Christ as abolishing every distinction tied to the Abrahamic promises, or as fulfilling those promises in a way that gathers both Jew and Gentile into one people under Him.
That is where I'd return to the text.
The Abrahamic Covenant was a land covenant promised to Abraham first and then passed on to Isaac and then onto Jacob. Jacob was renamed "Israel" and his sons make up the 12 tribes of Israel. That's why you see the 144,000 sealed tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 and why you don't see Ishmael being represented there instead. THEY are the ones in which God made His land covenant with.
God explicitly rejected Abraham’s request for Ishmael to inherit the Abrahamic Covenant by stating, "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac," thereby reserving the promise of the land and the spiritual lineage for the son of Sarah. When Abraham pleaded, "Oh that Ishmael might live before you!," God acknowledged the request and promised to make Ishmael a great nation with twelve princes, but He drew a sharp distinction by specifying that the everlasting covenant and the territorial inheritance (from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates) belonged solely to Isaac and his descendants.
So, while we, as the faithful, will inherit the rest of the earth after Jesus returns, only the seed of Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel will inherit the promised land as described in the Bible with its specific boundaries listed.
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They are very big on false accusations.
Old trick never dies.
Thank God we have Jesus in us, we have the truth, the way, the life!
Which prophetic promise, covenant promise, or interpretation of Abraham's seed do you believe is unsupported by Scripture?
If Scofield was wrong there, the strongest case won't be made by pointing to his mistakes elsewhere, but by opening the relevant passages and showing from the text where the interpretation fails.
Peter was wrong in Galatians 2, yet that doesn't mean everything Peter taught was wrong.
Does the existence of errors in Scofield's notes prove that every doctrine associated with him is false?
No, the covenant with Abraham is about his seed through Isaac and Jacob, the 12 tribes of Israel, inheriting the promised land as outlined with boundaries in the Bible.
It's through Jesus as the continuing seed of Jacob that the faithful will inherit the rest of the earth.
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There are those who excel in the false accusation category.
It is because their doctrine has been refuted, acts of desperation.
Good question again brother. Again ot is the shadow.
Note only calab and Joshua from that generation entered promises land . Why?
Throughout entire OT, only the faithful ones stayed in faith in YHVH. Why?
Only Daniel and 3 young men didn't bow to statue, why?
Elijah rebuked the follower of baal, why?
......
Paul assumes we all read ot carefully. Ot never guarantee salvation based on ethnic. Never did.
That seed blessing extended to many, including you and I.
Amen
Again, ot is shadow. Jesus in nt is the clearer deal, real deal.
Nt and ot in sync, never contradicting.
That's because you still don't understand the Bible. Why? Because you're a Preterist. What does ChristianChat have to say about that?
Full Preterism is restricted on Christian Chat, but Partial Preterism is allowed. According to an admin statement on the site: "The Admin team of Christian Chat holds that Full Preterism (the belief that ALL end times prophesy has already been fulfilled) is heresy and those promoting it will be dealt with accordingly. Partial Preterism (the belief that some end times prophesy has already been fulfilled) is an acceptable and debatable viewpoint alongside numerous other debatable viewpoints on eschatology."
So, don't be throwing stones when you live in a glass house.
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Haha good heavens no. I am doing nothing more than what the Lord had done. I ask questions based on your understanding and ask if it can be backed by scripture. I have no " framework" that I advise for scripture understanding. Scripture speaks well enough on its own without help of a man-made system.
It looks like God/Jesus already blinded you from His divine plan that He laid out clearly throughout the entire Bible.
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