Jesus as the True Image, or, who do we say Jesus is?

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S

suaso

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#1
So, in my Christology class we were supposed to read this book called Jesus Through the Centuries by a fellow called Jaroslav Pelikan. In his book, he goes through various ways in which people have looked at Jesus. Each chapter has a title (like "True Image") and that chapter deals with how Jesus fits the title in, how the title falls short of describing Jesus, how people have come into conflict with the title, or how people have better come to know Jesus by approaching him that way, and so on. We were supposed to choos 2 titles that appealed to us and 2 that did not appeal to us and explain our reasoning. I thought I'd share one of my choices with ya'll, and maybe see what title (from the book or from anywhere else that you please) appeals to you all the most, or in some way describes how you best identify with Our Lord. Some examples from the book were: King of Kings, Light of the Gentiles, The Rabbi, The Son of Man, Christ Crucified, Bridegroom of the Soul, Divine and Human Model, The Universal Man, Mirror of the Eternal, Prince of Peace, Teacher of Common Sense, and the Liberator. There are many, many others out there, so don't feel constricted. Ultimately, each of these in some fashion answers the question "Who do people say that I am?" from a more personal perspective. So, without further ado, here's my bit on Jesus as the True Image:

One of the earliest ways of viewing Jesus was to see him as the True Image, that is, as the true image of God. God himself has always been an invisible mystery to the universe, having no physical qualities to observe with the senses. Even so, the Bible tells us that God said “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Genesis 1:26). It is in this way that God became the original artist, creating an image of himself in mankind. Yet, he was still an invisible God, and the Logos was his image: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth…” ( 1 Col. 1:15-16). God was only able to be known to mankind as much as God was willing to reveal himself to mankind. The greatest way in which God chose to reveal himself to creation was through the Incarnation of the Word.

Being created in the image of God, mankind was essentially an image of the true Image, that is the Son of God, since it was through the Logos that man was created. Being made in God’s image, man shares in the reasoning ability of the Word. Being made in the likeness of God, man once shared things before the Fall with God, such as immortality and incorruption. Once man sinned, he fell from this state and into corruption, losing within him his likeness to God. It was for this reason that the Word, the true Image, had to become incarnate. The image of God in man had been distorted.

At the Incarnation two important things happened. First, the Word of God, in taking on human nature, restored the image within man that had been lost through sin by the indwelling of his own divinity within the human body that was his own. Second, by becoming embodied in the person of Jesus, the Word became the visible image of the invisible God. “He became Himself an object for the senses, so that those who were seeking God in sensible things might apprehend the Father…” (Athanasius 43). Through the Incarnation, God now had a body in the person of Jesus. He made himself an image to behold.

It is the humanity of Jesus that made God something to be known. Being human and becoming tangible, he could also be depicted. Like all things that can be seen, Jesus could also be represented through artistic endeavors. Though the Bible commands that no one make images of anything on, above, or below earth, Christianity has a rich tradition of religious artwork. Unlike Judaism of the past or Islam which came after it, Christianity is not solely a religion of the book. There is more to the faith that holds not only the Bible to be the inspired word of God, but that Jesus himself is the living, breathing Word made flesh. The Word made God visible and material in the person of Jesus. As it has been explained by Jaroslav Pelikan, the threat many iconoclastic people have felt from depicting Jesus is art is “ a deep-seated aversion to the material and physical aspects of his person” (Pelikan 88). Some are frightened at the idea that God would dishonor himself by becoming man, and as they shun the material representations of him, they shun the redemption and sanctification of the body that he achieved through his Incarnation. They insult his divine wisdom at best and deny the truth of the Incarnation at worst.

The idea of Jesus as the True image appeals to me because at its core is the underlying truth of the Incarnation: that God became man so that man could become like God. The use of images speaks to the truth that does not deny the human and material nature of Jesus. We can imagine what Jesus may have looked like because we know that he looked something like us. Being like us in all but sin, he shows us that our humanity was worth saving so much that he was willing to be one of us, die for us, and give us - every part of what it means for us to be human - the hope of the resurrection.


Works Cited:
- Athanasius, St. On the Incarnation (De Incarnatione Verbi Dei). New York: St. Vladimir's Seminary P, 1975.
- Pelikan, Jarslov. Jesus Through the Centuries. Chicago: History Book Club, 2005.
- The Bible (pick your own flavor)
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#2
The true image of Jesus is giving to us in the scriptures :

Joh 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Jesus told us who He was also inthe scripture so I will Amen , what he said about who He was:

Re 1:8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Re 1:17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:Re 1:18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.yeah that is who I say that He is
 
May 3, 2009
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#3
One of the earliest ways of viewing Jesus was to see him as the True Image, that is, as the true image of God. God himself has always been an invisible mystery to the universe, having no physical qualities to observe with the senses. Even so, the Bible tells us that God said “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Genesis 1:26). It is in this way that God became the original artist, creating an image of himself in mankind. Yet, he was still an invisible God, and the Logos was his image: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth…” ( 1 Col. 1:15-16). God was only able to be known to mankind as much as God was willing to reveal himself to mankind. The greatest way in which God chose to reveal himself to creation was through the Incarnation of the Word.

Being created in the image of God, mankind was essentially an image of the true Image, that is the Son of God, since it was through the Logos that man was created. Being made in God’s image, man shares in the reasoning ability of the Word. Being made in the likeness of God, man once shared things before the Fall with God, such as immortality and incorruption. Once man sinned, he fell from this state and into corruption, losing within him his likeness to God. It was for this reason that the Word, the true Image, had to become incarnate. The image of God in man had been distorted.

At the Incarnation two important things happened. First, the Word of God, in taking on human nature, restored the image within man that had been lost through sin by the indwelling of his own divinity within the human body that was his own. Second, by becoming embodied in the person of Jesus, the Word became the visible image of the invisible God. “He became Himself an object for the senses, so that those who were seeking God in sensible things might apprehend the Father…” (Athanasius 43). Through the Incarnation, God now had a body in the person of Jesus. He made himself an image to behold.

It is the humanity of Jesus that made God something to be known. Being human and becoming tangible, he could also be depicted. Like all things that can be seen, Jesus could also be represented through artistic endeavors. Though the Bible commands that no one make images of anything on, above, or below earth, Christianity has a rich tradition of religious artwork. Unlike Judaism of the past or Islam which came after it, Christianity is not solely a religion of the book. There is more to the faith that holds not only the Bible to be the inspired word of God, but that Jesus himself is the living, breathing Word made flesh. The Word made God visible and material in the person of Jesus. As it has been explained by Jaroslav Pelikan, the threat many iconoclastic people have felt from depicting Jesus is art is “ a deep-seated aversion to the material and physical aspects of his person” (Pelikan 88). Some are frightened at the idea that God would dishonor himself by becoming man, and as they shun the material representations of him, they shun the redemption and sanctification of the body that he achieved through his Incarnation. They insult his divine wisdom at best and deny the truth of the Incarnation at worst.

The idea of Jesus as the True image appeals to me because at its core is the underlying truth of the Incarnation: that God became man so that man could become like God. The use of images speaks to the truth that does not deny the human and material nature of Jesus. We can imagine what Jesus may have looked like because we know that he looked something like us. Being like us in all but sin, he shows us that our humanity was worth saving so much that he was willing to be one of us, die for us, and give us - every part of what it means for us to be human - the hope of the resurrection.


Image in Genesis refers: 1. to our souls. If it referred to physicality, then God is a hermatophrodite: both man and woman. Read the Genesis passage again: "male and female He created them". Image does NOT refer to physicality likeness. I am assuming you are NOT Mormon.

The llikeness between humanity and God beside dealing with our spiritual nature embodied in our Souls, also refers to the fact that God made us dominant over other species. Again, look at Genesis: "Let them have dominion over..."

Yes, Jesus is the image of God, eternally begotten from the Father. Same substance as the Father. The Church uses Aristotelian philosophy to do it's bests to explain the nature of Father and Son, and has said that Jesus is best thought of as the Father reflecting upon Himself; i.e., the image the Father has of Himself.

In ONE Divine Nature there are three Persons. Nature speaks to WHAT Jesus is:GOD. Person speaks to WHO Jesus is: the WORD. Eccl 24:5 "I came out of the mouth of the Most High". "The firstborn before all creatures". But John says it best: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God.... and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. And we saw His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father." With that phraseology, John takes us back to visualizing Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God, the Word of God, and the Word was God.

Many people who aspire to be Christians fall down here. The WORD is not a vocal word. God is not like that. God is pure spirit.His word must be a word in the mind, a thought, an idea.

Since God is perfect, when He conceives of an idea, unlike us, He conceives of it perfectly. Therefore, God's idea of Himself is in no way less than the BEING of which it is an idea.The idea contains all the perfection of the BEING. There can be nothing in the Father which is not in His thought of Himself. Thus the idea, the Word that God conceives is Infinite, Living, Eternal, equal in all respects to the Father.

Therefore, the Son is like in all nature, equal in all things, to the Father. The Son is God as the Father is God.

Unfortunately, this level of metaphysics exceeds my understanding and my ability to adequately express the little I think I understand.

God Bless.
 
S

suaso

Guest
#4
I would like to clarify that when we say man is made in God's image, we don't mean "Hey..we look just like God!" We mean that, in his image, we are rational creatures that can think, understand, and know in a way similar to God, who himself has thought of all things, understands all things, and knows all things. We can too, but only incompletely as only God is perfect and capable of completeness in these areas.

Jesus is the True Image because he perfectly does what we do imperfectly because he himself is God.

In short, we humans are images of the True Image because, we being made in God's image, were made through the Word who is the True Image of God as he himself is God.

Christology is fun!
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#5
I would like to clarify that when we say man is made in God's image, we don't mean "Hey..we look just like God!" We mean that, in his image, we are rational creatures that can think, understand, and know in a way similar to God, who himself has thought of all things, understands all things, and knows all things. We can too, but only incompletely as only God is perfect and capable of completeness in these areas.

Jesus is the True Image because he perfectly does what we do imperfectly because he himself is God.

In short, we humans are images of the True Image because, we being made in God's image, were made through the Word who is the True Image of God as he himself is God.

Christology is fun!
No I am sorry to inform you that this is not correct if we were not made in his image then the Bible lied, we can not have no lies in the scriptures
" We mean that, in his image, we are rational creatures that can think, understand, and know in a way similar to God, who himself has thought of all things, understands all things, and knows all things." if this statement that you just made is true, then why did adam and eve have to eat from the tree of knowledge before they knew good and evil, are you saying that God also started out ignorant of Good and evil???
 

NoahsDad

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2006
594
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#6
Man I'd like to post to this one but it just went about 15 miles over my head
 
S

suaso

Guest
#7
I am saying human beings are made in God's image, but unlike God, humans are not perfect. So no, God was never ignorant. Man was. If we were perfect like God, Adam would not have eaten the apple to begin with. A perfect being (God) can not sin. Humans (and angels for that matter) did sin at some point (Adam and Eve and the fallen angels). Unlike the angels who fell, we at least have a shot at redemption and salvation. If we had been made with God's infinite, perfect knowledge, then Adam and Eve would not have chosen their will over God's will by choosing to disobey God by eating from the tree as God has explicitly told them not to. Since we don't have that perfect, intimate knowledge, we are mere images of The True Image (The Word who is God), and we were made in the image of God, but we were not made as gods (which would mean we would be 100% like God in all things).

We can reason, think, and be rational. No other creature on this earth can do this. Even the "smarter" animals like apes and dolphins can't sit back and reflect on the week and develope some sort of philosophy of ape or dolphin life. This is a human characteristic only. That makes us in the image of God. We share God's ability to know and understand, but we share it with limitations, as only God is omniscient (all knowing) and omnipotent (all powerful). Since Adam and Eve were not all-knowing, they desired to be so, which is why they chose to know what God knows by eating the apple. What they got was not what they wanted: they got sin and death and pain and seperation from God until the redemption of their body and souls by Christ on the cross as a result of their disobedience. They oly wanted to be like God in all ways, which was not theirs to have. That privilage belonged to God alone, and the assumed they could grasp it when they doubted God's soverignty by believing a snake (the devil) over God's word and command.

They ate from the tree of knowledge because they had the freedom of choice. The saw in this choice only good: the ability to know what God knows. They probably didn't realize that, for them, this would mean evil would befall them. God told them they would die. If you didn't know what death was (there was no death for them before the fall), would that mean a lot to you? They sinned for the same reason we all sin: the result seems good, but the motives and actions are bad, and the resulting consequeces end up bad too. Think of sex: the act itself is good when taken in the context of marriage. Sex with your best friend's spouse: bad...but, at the time, it seems good (or, more so, feels good one might say). The good is trumped by the bad, which in this case is adultry, and in Adam and Eve's case was the pain of death and seperation from God. In short: they wanted to be omtipotent and omniscient, but the got death.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#9
I am saying human beings are made in God's image, but unlike God, humans are not perfect. So no, God was never ignorant. Man was. If we were perfect like God, Adam would not have eaten the apple to begin with. A perfect being (God) can not sin. Humans (and angels for that matter) did sin at some point (Adam and Eve and the fallen angels). Unlike the angels who fell, we at least have a shot at redemption and salvation. If we had been made with God's infinite, perfect knowledge, then Adam and Eve would not have chosen their will over God's will by choosing to disobey God by eating from the tree as God has explicitly told them not to. Since we don't have that perfect, intimate knowledge, we are mere images of The True Image (The Word who is God), and we were made in the image of God, but we were not made as gods (which would mean we would be 100% like God in all things).

We can reason, think, and be rational. No other creature on this earth can do this. Even the "smarter" animals like apes and dolphins can't sit back and reflect on the week and develope some sort of philosophy of ape or dolphin life. This is a human characteristic only. That makes us in the image of God. We share God's ability to know and understand, but we share it with limitations, as only God is omniscient (all knowing) and omnipotent (all powerful). Since Adam and Eve were not all-knowing, they desired to be so, which is why they chose to know what God knows by eating the apple. What they got was not what they wanted: they got sin and death and pain and seperation from God until the redemption of their body and souls by Christ on the cross as a result of their disobedience. They oly wanted to be like God in all ways, which was not theirs to have. That privilage belonged to God alone, and the assumed they could grasp it when they doubted God's soverignty by believing a snake (the devil) over God's word and command.

They ate from the tree of knowledge because they had the freedom of choice. The saw in this choice only good: the ability to know what God knows. They probably didn't realize that, for them, this would mean evil would befall them. God told them they would die. If you didn't know what death was (there was no death for them before the fall), would that mean a lot to you? They sinned for the same reason we all sin: the result seems good, but the motives and actions are bad, and the resulting consequeces end up bad too. Think of sex: the act itself is good when taken in the context of marriage. Sex with your best friend's spouse: bad...but, at the time, it seems good (or, more so, feels good one might say). The good is trumped by the bad, which in this case is adultry, and in Adam and Eve's case was the pain of death and seperation from God. In short: they wanted to be omtipotent and omniscient, but the got death.
so we don't look like Him and we are not spiritually like Him so what Image were we made, lady you're confusing
 
S

suaso

Guest
#10
We don't look like him physically. We do not share 100% of the same spiritual qualities that God has (we are not omniscient or omnipotent, etc).

We are embodied spirits (spiritual beings, yet we have bodies). Angels are spirits with no bodies. God is a spirit with no body. Angels are creatures and share some spiritual characteristics with God different from what humans have. Unlike us, they are in the presence of God at all times and can know things that we can not know, but like us, angels are not omnipotent or omnisceint. Only God is.

We are made in his image. This use of *image* goes beyond the physical aspects of an object. I could paint an image of a flower and make it look just like a flower. Or, I could paint some strange abstract thing that looks nothing like a flower and say that it is indeed a flower. Both would be in the image of a flower, only one would be identical in apperence to a real flower. We are made in the image of God, but we are not identical in appearence to God, as God actually has no physical appearence (save for Jesus) to be made in. Man was made in the image of God before Jesus was made known to man, before the Word was made Flesh. The Word, was, of course, with God and therefore had no beginning, but he was not incarnate from the beginning. We were not all made to *look like* God, but, to *be like* God, in a limited way. That is the use of the term image of what I speak.

If we were made in the image of God in a way that says to "look like' God, then we would be suggesting that the eternaly Trinity is made of a material form that can be *looked* at and have an image (in the sense of physical appearence) made after it, for which served as a model for mankind. If this we so, then we must ask: Is God a man or a woman, black, white, tan, short, tall, fat, thin, blue-eyed, brown-eyed, bald, etc...these are the pysical characteristics of man, and they are many. So, if we are made to appear as God appears, is God any of these? If not, then maybe to be made in God's image means not to be made to look like him, but to be like him.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#11
We don't look like him physically. We do not share 100% of the same spiritual qualities that God has (we are not omniscient or omnipotent, etc).

We are embodied spirits (spiritual beings, yet we have bodies). Angels are spirits with no bodies. God is a spirit with no body. Angels are creatures and share some spiritual characteristics with God different from what humans have. Unlike us, they are in the presence of God at all times and can know things that we can not know, but like us, angels are not omnipotent or omnisceint. Only God is.

We are made in his image. This use of *image* goes beyond the physical aspects of an object. I could paint an image of a flower and make it look just like a flower. Or, I could paint some strange abstract thing that looks nothing like a flower and say that it is indeed a flower. Both would be in the image of a flower, only one would be identical in apperence to a real flower. We are made in the image of God, but we are not identical in appearence to God, as God actually has no physical appearence (save for Jesus) to be made in. Man was made in the image of God before Jesus was made known to man, before the Word was made Flesh. The Word, was, of course, with God and therefore had no beginning, but he was not incarnate from the beginning. We were not all made to *look like* God, but, to *be like* God, in a limited way. That is the use of the term image of what I speak.

If we were made in the image of God in a way that says to "look like' God, then we would be suggesting that the eternaly Trinity is made of a material form that can be *looked* at and have an image (in the sense of physical appearence) made after it, for which served as a model for mankind. If this we so, then we must ask: Is God a man or a woman, black, white, tan, short, tall, fat, thin, blue-eyed, brown-eyed, bald, etc...these are the pysical characteristics of man, and they are many. So, if we are made to appear as God appears, is God any of these? If not, then maybe to be made in God's image means not to be made to look like him, but to be like him.
so you are saying that God is omniscience but that He didn't already know what Image He was going to give himself when He came as Jesus, or that Jesus was created in the image of man?? were we created in His image as the Bible says are not ??? are you agreeing with scripture or disagree??

your quote "as God actually has no physical appearence " so the God lied when He said.
Ex 33:20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.Ex 33:21And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:Ex 33:22And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:Ex 33:23And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
God said he had a face that couldn't be seen, a hand that he could cover moses with and back parts that moses could see, I believe once again I will go with scriptures here, thank you. Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father, now sure you going to tell me that He didn't mean that either ??
 
S

suaso

Guest
#12
I take that as when someone, long ago, may have said " The iron fist of the USSR is closing around Europe." A region can not have a hand, let alone a fist, but the point isn't that the USSR is a physical body with a great big hand. The point is that the USSR is acting in a way, and the best way to describe that action is to attribute it to something we can understand: hence, we say stuff like the above.

Could God have anticipated the physical form that the Word would take on at the incarnation? Absolutely. Does that necessarily 100% mean that is the use of the term image in the context that tells us man was created in God's image? No. Does it exclude it? Also no. If you want to truly believe that we "look" like God, then go right ahead. I am merely suggesting that to be in the image of a thing is not always to look like the thing. The word image has many meanings, and it can mean "to look like," but it can also mean "idea," or "concept." There are some images that share absolutely nothing in common with that which they were made to be an image of.

Think of a sculpture like Michaelangelo's David. Even at a basic level, unlike the real David, this image can not move, eat, sleep, think, feel, or act. It probably "looks" more like a human than anything else, but it shares no quality with a human other than in appearence. What use is being that sort of an image? Then there are other images that might not look anything like the thing they are modled after, but share so much more with the model because they go beyond appearence. In this case, the best example is man made in the image of God. We share so much more with God than something so useless as appearence: we can think, we can understand, we can reason, we can love, we can anticipate.

This is far greater than looking like God, and this is what makes us even more to be in his image than anything else. If all we have to do to be in God's image is look like God, then that dead statute of David is just as much made in God's image as we are, because the statue looks like a man (who would therefore look like God). It is what we possess that the statue does not that makes us more in God's image: our reason, our spirits, our minds.

But, of course, my thread was not originally intended to be a debate about the physical/non-physical characteristics of God. I had hoped we could spark dialogue about what "role" or "title" we find most helpful in our relationships with Jesus. What appeals to you the most? The least? Hopefully, someone out there has some thoughts.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#13
I take that as when someone, long ago, may have said " The iron fist of the USSR is closing around Europe." A region can not have a hand, let alone a fist, but the point isn't that the USSR is a physical body with a great big hand. The point is that the USSR is acting in a way, and the best way to describe that action is to attribute it to something we can understand: hence, we say stuff like the above.

Could God have anticipated the physical form that the Word would take on at the incarnation? Absolutely. Does that necessarily 100% mean that is the use of the term image in the context that tells us man was created in God's image? No. Does it exclude it? Also no. If you want to truly believe that we "look" like God, then go right ahead. I am merely suggesting that to be in the image of a thing is not always to look like the thing. The word image has many meanings, and it can mean "to look like," but it can also mean "idea," or "concept." There are some images that share absolutely nothing in common with that which they were made to be an image of.

Think of a sculpture like Michaelangelo's David. Even at a basic level, unlike the real David, this image can not move, eat, sleep, think, feel, or act. It probably "looks" more like a human than anything else, but it shares no quality with a human other than in appearence. What use is being that sort of an image? Then there are other images that might not look anything like the thing they are modled after, but share so much more with the model because they go beyond appearence. In this case, the best example is man made in the image of God. We share so much more with God than something so useless as appearence: we can think, we can understand, we can reason, we can love, we can anticipate.

This is far greater than looking like God, and this is what makes us even more to be in his image than anything else. If all we have to do to be in God's image is look like God, then that dead statute of David is just as much made in God's image as we are, because the statue looks like a man (who would therefore look like God). It is what we possess that the statue does not that makes us more in God's image: our reason, our spirits, our minds.

But, of course, my thread was not originally intended to be a debate about the physical/non-physical characteristics of God. I had hoped we could spark dialogue about what "role" or "title" we find most helpful in our relationships with Jesus. What appeals to you the most? The least? Hopefully, someone out there has some thoughts.
so now we lower God down to a nation as having a hand. lady , in order to prove your point you are destorying God, man said that russia had a iron fist. let God be truth and all men be lairs. God was the one that told Moses he could see His back parts, if God said that He had a back part then I am going to believe God over your teachings, all the Bible is not symbolic such as when we say that Jesus was the Door, I understand your desire of the thread , But My point Is, I am trying to establish that God is not a lair, Jesus thus being the Most High, Alpha and Omega the Almighty,

Re 1:8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


thus He can't lie either. your statement was " having no physical qualities to observe with the senses." this the point I am disscussing with you. if we get to heaven and discover that God has wings will we turn from Him because He is not the Being that we thought that He should be. If Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God, this can't be symbolic, God has a throne that He sits on , He has a right side that Jesus can sit By, arms that stretch out to His people, He has wings that He will put us under, back side that Moses could see but yet you make him as a Lair saying " He has having no physical qualities to observe with the senses." again I say, believe what teachings you want But I will trust the Bible. If the Bible is not the inspired Word of God as it claims to be then we all in trouble. and if it is and someone shows us a teaching/doctrine that we believe to be wrong we have a choice believe the inspired word of God . or believe our popes, pastors, Elders , grandparents or moms and dads. I am just pointing out you may be giving a false image of God. you believe what you want you have free will
 
May 3, 2009
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#14
so now we lower God down to a nation as having a hand. lady , in order to prove your point you are destorying God, man said that russia had a iron fist. let God be truth and all men be lairs. God was the one that told Moses he could see His back parts, if God said that He had a back part then I am going to believe God over your teachings, all the Bible is not symbolic such as when we say that Jesus was the Door, I understand your desire of the thread , But My point Is, I am trying to establish that God is not a lair, Jesus thus being the Most High, Alpha and Omega the Almighty,

Re 1:8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


thus He can't lie either. your statement was " having no physical qualities to observe with the senses." this the point I am disscussing with you. if we get to heaven and discover that God has wings will we turn from Him because He is not the Being that we thought that He should be. If Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God, this can't be symbolic, God has a throne that He sits on , He has a right side that Jesus can sit By, arms that stretch out to His people, He has wings that He will put us under, back side that Moses could see but yet you make him as a Lair saying " He has having no physical qualities to observe with the senses." again I say, believe what teachings you want But I will trust the Bible. If the Bible is not the inspired Word of God as it claims to be then we all in trouble. and if it is and someone shows us a teaching/doctrine that we believe to be wrong we have a choice believe the inspired word of God . or believe our popes, pastors, Elders , grandparents or moms and dads. I am just pointing out you may be giving a false image of God. you believe what you want you have free will
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You might consider researching biblical hermeneutics, otherwise, your experiences with christianity will be far less valuable than they would otherwise be.

Among devout Bible students, there has long been consensus as to what these rules are. The Church must now reaffirm and defend them if it wishes to counter the current threats to sound doctrine. The authentic rules of interpretation include the following:

An overview of the process for interpreting a passage of scripture.
1) Read the passage and the entire context. This context could extend for pages.
2) Consider the overall theme of the Bible.
3) Consider the culture of day when this passage was written. Put the passage into its proper historical perspective.
4) Consider the theme of the particular book that the passage occurs in. Consider the writer, the time period and the culture of the people.
5) Look for evidence of typology, symbolism, allegory and figures of speech. If none of these exist, then interpret the passage literally.
6) We must remain in prayer and be willing to be instructed by the Holy Spirit because understanding comes from God, not solely from our use of reason.
No one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. (1 Corinthians 2:11b-13)
7) A word of warning. As even a quick investigation into the many doctrinal variations demonstrates, we simply cannot develop dogma, doctrine, and moral teaching unaided -- we require Divine assistance. But merely calling upon the Holy Spirit to assist us in interpreting sacred scripture is insufficient. Many well-meaning, Spirit-filled theologians have attempted this over the centuries, but their doctrines all contradict one another. The Holy Spirit guides the Church into all truth, not individuals.
You will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1 Tim 3:15)
This passage states that it is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth.
The Holy Spirit-inspired teaching magisterium of the Church provides authoritative teaching and doctrine. When our private interpretations collide with those of the Church, it is inevitably our interpretations which are in error.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#15
--------------------------------------------------------

You might consider researching biblical hermeneutics, otherwise, your experiences with christianity will be far less valuable than they would otherwise be.

Among devout Bible students, there has long been consensus as to what these rules are. The Church must now reaffirm and defend them if it wishes to counter the current threats to sound doctrine. The authentic rules of interpretation include the following:

An overview of the process for interpreting a passage of scripture.
1) Read the passage and the entire context. This context could extend for pages.
2) Consider the overall theme of the Bible.
3) Consider the culture of day when this passage was written. Put the passage into its proper historical perspective.
4) Consider the theme of the particular book that the passage occurs in. Consider the writer, the time period and the culture of the people.
5) Look for evidence of typology, symbolism, allegory and figures of speech. If none of these exist, then interpret the passage literally.
6) We must remain in prayer and be willing to be instructed by the Holy Spirit because understanding comes from God, not solely from our use of reason.
No one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. (1 Corinthians 2:11b-13)
7) A word of warning. As even a quick investigation into the many doctrinal variations demonstrates, we simply cannot develop dogma, doctrine, and moral teaching unaided -- we require Divine assistance. But merely calling upon the Holy Spirit to assist us in interpreting sacred scripture is insufficient. Many well-meaning, Spirit-filled theologians have attempted this over the centuries, but their doctrines all contradict one another. The Holy Spirit guides the Church into all truth, not individuals.
You will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1 Tim 3:15)
This passage states that it is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth.
The Holy Spirit-inspired teaching magisterium of the Church provides authoritative teaching and doctrine. When our private interpretations collide with those of the Church, it is inevitably our interpretations which are in error.
You dude I said that I shook the dirt off from my shoes in the other thread thus saith the Lord . I could suggest you do the same, thus saith the Lord, But I know it would waste my time. so let show you once again from scripture where you err. you said "But merely calling upon the Holy Spirit to assist us in interpreting sacred scripture is insufficient. " but the scriptures says :
1co 2:7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:1co 2:8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.1co 2:9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.1co 2:10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.1co 2:11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.1co 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.1co 2:13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.1co 2:14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1co 2:15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.1co 2:16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.




the church is made of man sir your catholic church leaves it up to one person with the final authority which goes against scriptures itself , but I want to post this verse so big that you might not be able to over look it . it is the one in us the Holy Spirit that guides us in all things, you say that this ""is insufficient."" you mock the word of God itself there is a spiritual CHURCH that all of us that have faith in God is suppose to be part of , if you don't want to be part of this Church then that is you. here is your verse:
1jo 2:27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1jo 2:28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.1jo 2:29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

the church is not in me But rather God Himself , The Holy Spirit that dwell in us, is the one I AM TRUSTING IN SIR NOT YOUR CHRUCH MADE OF MAN!!!
 
May 3, 2009
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#16
You dude I said that I shook the dirt off from my shoes in the other thread thus saith the Lord . I could suggest you do the same, thus saith the Lord, But I know it would waste my time. so let show you once again from scripture where you err. you said "But merely calling upon the Holy Spirit to assist us in interpreting sacred scripture is insufficient. " but the scriptures says :
1co 2:7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:1co 2:8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.1co 2:9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.1co 2:10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.1co 2:11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.1co 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.1co 2:13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.1co 2:14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1co 2:15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.1co 2:16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.




the church is made of man sir your catholic church leaves it up to one person with the final authority which goes against scriptures itself , but I want to post this verse so big that you might not be able to over look it . it is the one in us the Holy Spirit that guides us in all things, you say that this ""is insufficient."" you mock the word of God itself there is a spiritual CHURCH that all of us that have faith in God is suppose to be part of , if you don't want to be part of this Church then that is you. here is your verse:
1jo 2:27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1jo 2:28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.1jo 2:29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

the church is not in me But rather God Himself , The Holy Spirit that dwell in us, is the one I AM TRUSTING IN SIR NOT YOUR CHRUCH MADE OF MAN!!!

Your dog won't bark. Nowhere it does it say any unlearned individual, no matter what his enthusiasm of faith, can pick up scripture and reliably correctly interpret it. If that were true, we wouldn't have the current mess of so many conflicting interpretations. Obviously, the Holy Spirit doesn't waste his time ensuring that every milkmaid with a bible, interprets it correctly.

The ASSURANCE OF INFALLIBLE INTERPRETATION IS GIVEN TO GOD'S CHURCH, not you nor any other individual.

Your principle of private interpretation is an unsound principle. Many people fail to understand the true meaning of the Bible, and still more read wrong meanings into it. Thus St. Peter says that there are many things in Scripture hard to be understood which the unlearned and unstable wrest to their own destruction. The very fruits of such private interpretation should be sufficient proof that God could never have intended such a method. For men have made the Bible support the most opposite doctrines and have established hundreds of distinct and irreconcilable sects, each claiming to represent the true religion of Christ. God could never have intended a principle which would lead to such chaos.

Your own utterances in this chatroom, not to embarass you, give ample evidence of what I have said above.

GOD BLESS.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#17
Your dog won't bark. Nowhere it does it say any unlearned individual, no matter what his enthusiasm of faith, can pick up scripture and reliably correctly interpret it. If that were true, we wouldn't have the current mess of so many conflicting interpretations. Obviously, the Holy Spirit doesn't waste his time ensuring that every milkmaid with a bible, interprets it correctly.

The ASSURANCE OF INFALLIBLE INTERPRETATION IS GIVEN TO GOD'S CHURCH, not you nor any other individual.

Your principle of private interpretation is an unsound principle. Many people fail to understand the true meaning of the Bible, and still more read wrong meanings into it. Thus St. Peter says that there are many things in Scripture hard to be understood which the unlearned and unstable wrest to their own destruction. The very fruits of such private interpretation should be sufficient proof that God could never have intended such a method. For men have made the Bible support the most opposite doctrines and have established hundreds of distinct and irreconcilable sects, each claiming to represent the true religion of Christ. God could never have intended a principle which would lead to such chaos.

Your own utterances in this chatroom, not to embarass you, give ample evidence of what I have said above.

GOD BLESS.

Such blasphemy I can't understand why they allow you to continue in this forum sir, your quote "Obviously, the Holy Spirit doesn't waste his time ensuring that every milkmaid with a bible, interprets it correctly."

Let this bark very loud and clear for you
Joh 14:26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 16:12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.Joh 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.Joh 16:14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.Joh 16:15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.Joh 16:16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.



Mt 12:31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the HOLY GHOST shall not be forgiven unto men.
I not sure who you are blaspheming the Father the Son Or The Holy Ghost I pray for your sake it is not the Holy Ghost, again sir I am done with you on this subject also.
 
May 3, 2009
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#18
Such blasphemy I can't understand why they allow you to continue in this forum sir, your quote "Obviously, the Holy Spirit doesn't waste his time ensuring that every milkmaid with a bible, interprets it correctly."

Let this bark very loud and clear for you
Joh 14:26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 16:12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.Joh 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.Joh 16:14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.Joh 16:15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.Joh 16:16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.



Mt 12:31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the HOLY GHOST shall not be forgiven unto men.
I not sure who you are blaspheming the Father the Son Or The Holy Ghost I pray for your sake it is not the Holy Ghost, again sir I am done with you on this subject also.
QUOTE: Joh 14:26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

That quote is directed to God's Church [the Apostles]. They were delegated authority by Jesus to spread the Church. It is not directed to every half-witted milkmaid. The Assurance of an Advocate, a Comforter, is for the CHURCH not individuals!
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#19
QUOTE: Joh 14:26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

That quote is directed to God's Church [the Apostles]. They were delegated authority by Jesus to spread the Church. It is not directed to every half-witted milkmaid. The Assurance of an Advocate, a Comforter, is for the CHURCH not individuals!

I not sure who you are blaspheming the Father the Son Or The Holy Ghost I pray for your sake it is not the Holy Ghost, again sir I am done with you on this subject also.
 
S

suaso

Guest
#20
Never mind. This argument is going nowhere fast. So, in light of the original point of the thread:

How do any of you best picture Jesus? As Savior? Friend? Brother? King? Lord? All of these...some of these...none of these (perhaps you have another way)?
 
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