-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Z
...he who stands firm to the end will be saved. (Matthew 24:13)
...He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 1:6)
...for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose. (Philippians 2:13)
Everyone (sons and daughters) who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made. (Isaiah 43:7)
...the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. (Romans 8:26)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20, emphasis added)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)
Grace and Love
Grace and Love
...He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 1:6)
...for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose. (Philippians 2:13)
Everyone (sons and daughters) who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made. (Isaiah 43:7)
...the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. (Romans 8:26)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20, emphasis added)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)
Grace and Love
Grace and Love
Z
You must have the Spirit to have faithin God. And unbeliever cannot have faith in God. I was addressing that.
In 1 Corinthians 12:3, I was pointing out that no one can say Jesus is Lord except if they have the Spirit dwelling in them. A fruit of the Spirit is faith in God. Therefore, no one can have faith in God unless they have the Spirit dwelling in them.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)
These people do not have the Spirit - when they call Jesus Lord, they call Him Lord in vain, for He is not their Lord.
Think. You can physically say "Jesus is Lord," yet the claim could be false if the Spirit is not in your heart. If the Spirit, whom He sent us from the Father, is in us, then we can call Him our Lord.
"But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did." (Romans 10:16-18a)
So, all of them did not have faith. Why? Because they were not predestined to have faith as we were (see Ephesians 1:5, 1:11).
Grace and Love
S
Unfortunately I cannot read your thoughts nor presuppositions so you will need to be specific when you are responding in order for me to accurately represent your position. Where do you get the idea that Galatians 5:22 is talking about faith in God? The majority of modern translations render the word there as "faithfulness" and the majority of commentators recognize that the fruit of the Spirit here is not talking about our feelings or attitude towards God, but concepts that are worked out within us. Sort of like working from the inside out. In fact, John Calvin didn't even read Galatians 5:22 the way you are reading it. He said "Faith means truth, and is contrasted with cunning, deceit, and falsehood, as peace is with quarrels and contentions. Long-suffering is gentleness of mind, which disposes us to take everything in good part, and not to be easily offended. The other terms require no explanation, for the dispositions of the mind must be learned from the outward conduct." (Ref. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom41.iii.vii.v.html)
Once again, you cannot argue from an exegetical point of view that Galatians 5:22 is speaking about faith in God. You are reading that into the passage and then reading other passages in light of your eisegesis of Galatians 5. "I was pointing out that no one can say Jesus is Lord except if they have the Spirit dwelling in them..." vs. "These people do not have the Spirit - when they call Jesus Lord..." Uh..... I'll let you figure that one out.
"Therefore, no one can have faith in God unless they have the Spirit dwelling in them." Really? How do you interpret James 2:18-19? James 2:18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
This is where you really lost me:
"But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did." (Romans 10:16-18a)
So, all of them did not have faith. Why? Because they were not predestined to have faith as we were(see Ephesians 1:5, 1:11).
Why would you ever jump to Ephesians 1:5,11 instead of reading the verse contextually? How would you ever perform a meaningful exegesis reading three verses and jump to an entire different book that is speaking in an entire different context? Continue reading Romans 10 to chapter 11 where Paul makes his major point that is "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all." (Rom. 11:32) No only that, but do you agree with the statement "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." ? Do you believe that faith comes through hearing the message of the gospel?
Was Jesus lying when He said "But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved." or did He really mean that He's giving His message that people may be or might be saved? Would you have corrected Jesus and said "no, nobody "might be saved" you are either in or you're out! Don't you understand we are predestined?" (Ref. John 5:34)
Once again, you cannot argue from an exegetical point of view that Galatians 5:22 is speaking about faith in God. You are reading that into the passage and then reading other passages in light of your eisegesis of Galatians 5. "I was pointing out that no one can say Jesus is Lord except if they have the Spirit dwelling in them..." vs. "These people do not have the Spirit - when they call Jesus Lord..." Uh..... I'll let you figure that one out.
"Therefore, no one can have faith in God unless they have the Spirit dwelling in them." Really? How do you interpret James 2:18-19? James 2:18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
This is where you really lost me:
"But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did." (Romans 10:16-18a)
So, all of them did not have faith. Why? Because they were not predestined to have faith as we were(see Ephesians 1:5, 1:11).
Why would you ever jump to Ephesians 1:5,11 instead of reading the verse contextually? How would you ever perform a meaningful exegesis reading three verses and jump to an entire different book that is speaking in an entire different context? Continue reading Romans 10 to chapter 11 where Paul makes his major point that is "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all." (Rom. 11:32) No only that, but do you agree with the statement "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." ? Do you believe that faith comes through hearing the message of the gospel?
Was Jesus lying when He said "But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved." or did He really mean that He's giving His message that people may be or might be saved? Would you have corrected Jesus and said "no, nobody "might be saved" you are either in or you're out! Don't you understand we are predestined?" (Ref. John 5:34)
F
The natural man can have many emotions with one another, and can have a natural faith, but the natural man cannot have spiritual faith (faith in anything pertaining to spiritual things), 1 Cor 2"14. God is spiritual and we must worship him in Spirit and in truth. Anything of a spiritual nature is foolishness to the natural man. After a person is born of the Spirit he receives spiritual faith, some more faith than others as the parable of the soils explains. Our spiritual faith grows as we hear and understand more of the word of God. 1 Pet 2:2, As new born babes, desire the sincer milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.
F
We will not hear the word unless we first have the Spirit. Spiritual things are foolishness to the natural man, 1 Cor 2:14. Rom 10:17, After we have been born of the Spirit and then hear the word, we grow in our faith. 1 Pet 2:2, As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.
F
I hope you will pardon me, Zakabba, if I make a few comments. The natural man can have faith in certain things, but he does not have spiritual faith which is a fruit of the Spirit. All of the fruits of the Spirit are spiritually descerned. God is a spirit and we must worship him in spirit and in truth. So, yes, the faith in Gal 5 is "faith in God". James 2:18, Faith without works is dead, but we already know that works will not save us eternally. If we are born of the Spirit we will show forth good works. Eph 2:10, For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Rom 11:32, The word "all" in this verse, if you want to keep it in context, includes only the believing Jews and the Gentiles and has blinded Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, verse 25. Rom 10:17, I have already given you scripture of Gal 5 being spiritual faith and after we are born of the Spirit, when we hear the word of God our spirit grows. 1 Pet 2:2, As newborn babes, desire the sinscere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby. There is a salvation (deliverance) in coming unto a knowledge of the truth, but is not eternal salvation, but a deliverance from depending upon your own works of righteousness for eternal salvation. There are many scriptures uning the word saved that are refering to timely salvations and not eternal, such as Rom 10:3.
S
Forest,
I would recommend staying away from redefining words that do not agree with your doctrines. That makes for very dangerous Bible studies. As for Galatians 5:22 as I have said earlier it's not speaking about faith in God, it's speaking about faithfulness, trustworthiness as opposed to being unfaithful to commitments (for example), etc as the majority of New Testament commentators recognize. Not to appeal to authority, but, even John Calvin doesn't read Galatians 5:22 the way you are reading it. That should speak volumes to the position you are taking on the passage.
Anyway, I saw a question that I felt like responding to. I normally try not to get engaged in Calvinism debates for various reasons. I do not have a lot of patience with this topic, to be honest. So with that being said I will duck out of the discussion.
For those who are unsure about these issues and those who would like to dig deeper I recommend listening to this debate (3 hours total) on the topic of Calvinism. Probably the foremost reformed scholar of our day, Dr. James White takes on Dr. Michael Brown, I think it's a fascinating debate that will only encourage you to continue to get into the word of God more and more.
Part 1: http://askdrbrown.org/media/albums/...Brown Debates Dr James White on Calvinism.mp3
Part 2: http://askdrbrown.org/media/albums/.... Brown Debates Dr. James White on Calvinism [Part%202].mp3
Lord bless you all,
Peace in Christ.
I would recommend staying away from redefining words that do not agree with your doctrines. That makes for very dangerous Bible studies. As for Galatians 5:22 as I have said earlier it's not speaking about faith in God, it's speaking about faithfulness, trustworthiness as opposed to being unfaithful to commitments (for example), etc as the majority of New Testament commentators recognize. Not to appeal to authority, but, even John Calvin doesn't read Galatians 5:22 the way you are reading it. That should speak volumes to the position you are taking on the passage.
Anyway, I saw a question that I felt like responding to. I normally try not to get engaged in Calvinism debates for various reasons. I do not have a lot of patience with this topic, to be honest. So with that being said I will duck out of the discussion.
For those who are unsure about these issues and those who would like to dig deeper I recommend listening to this debate (3 hours total) on the topic of Calvinism. Probably the foremost reformed scholar of our day, Dr. James White takes on Dr. Michael Brown, I think it's a fascinating debate that will only encourage you to continue to get into the word of God more and more.
Part 1: http://askdrbrown.org/media/albums/...Brown Debates Dr James White on Calvinism.mp3
Part 2: http://askdrbrown.org/media/albums/.... Brown Debates Dr. James White on Calvinism [Part%202].mp3
Lord bless you all,
Peace in Christ.
Last edited:
Z
Okay.
Think. Just, think. What do we have faithfulness in?
As Christians, we have faithfulness certainly in other Christians.
But, overall, we have faithfulness in Christ.
I thought I put it simply, but maybe not enough:
No one can call Jesus their Lord and Savior, and have that calling be true, unless they have the Spirit dwelling in them.
As for Ephesians 1:5 and 11 - I have the view that Scripture is inspired by the Spirit (I don't know if you carry this view). Furthermore, I have the view that Paul had one mind, not two, meaning that, on a whole, his letters are consistent with one another in their theology, in his theology.
Now, if I were to have cited something from 1 Peter, though I view Scripture to be inspired, you would have merit for me not looking into the context of the verse, for Peter and Paul are not the same person.
Since you so desire it, let's look into the context of these verses:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:3-14)
So, even from here I can say that faith certainly does come from hearing the word of God.
Where does the word of God come from? From God himself.
So, faith comes from God, ultimately.
About Jesus - He also said that all that come to Him He will raise up on the last day. The thing is, all the ones that come to Him have been given to Him by the Father. According to His own words, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." (John 6:37)
Think. Just, think. What do we have faithfulness in?
As Christians, we have faithfulness certainly in other Christians.
But, overall, we have faithfulness in Christ.
I thought I put it simply, but maybe not enough:
No one can call Jesus their Lord and Savior, and have that calling be true, unless they have the Spirit dwelling in them.
As for Ephesians 1:5 and 11 - I have the view that Scripture is inspired by the Spirit (I don't know if you carry this view). Furthermore, I have the view that Paul had one mind, not two, meaning that, on a whole, his letters are consistent with one another in their theology, in his theology.
Now, if I were to have cited something from 1 Peter, though I view Scripture to be inspired, you would have merit for me not looking into the context of the verse, for Peter and Paul are not the same person.
Since you so desire it, let's look into the context of these verses:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:3-14)
So, even from here I can say that faith certainly does come from hearing the word of God.
Where does the word of God come from? From God himself.
So, faith comes from God, ultimately.
About Jesus - He also said that all that come to Him He will raise up on the last day. The thing is, all the ones that come to Him have been given to Him by the Father. According to His own words, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." (John 6:37)
S
Zackabba,
I hope you didn't take what i said as being condescending or arrogant in any way. I hope you are not offended by anything I had said. Reading through it again, perhaps I should have said some things differently. Now, as I had told Forest earlier I do not have any desire to further engage in this discussion, due to my own reasons, not that you guys do not have a good conversation going here or anything of that nature. So with that being said I'll let you get the last word in. I do hope you check out that debate I recommended though.
Take care, may our Lord bless you.
Peace in Christ.
I hope you didn't take what i said as being condescending or arrogant in any way. I hope you are not offended by anything I had said. Reading through it again, perhaps I should have said some things differently. Now, as I had told Forest earlier I do not have any desire to further engage in this discussion, due to my own reasons, not that you guys do not have a good conversation going here or anything of that nature. So with that being said I'll let you get the last word in. I do hope you check out that debate I recommended though.
Take care, may our Lord bless you.
Peace in Christ.
Thanks for your input anyways.