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S
Idk guys I was just thinking that alot of the explanations Christians give are as illogical as what atheists give. The atheist will can't tell you where the elements of the universe came from, but the thiest can't tell you where God came from.
It's as if logic isn't really logical because you can't explain everything with logic.
Does anybody know the difference between emotions and the Holy Spirit because that's what this really comes down to doesn't it?
Anyways. mees confused lol
It's as if logic isn't really logical because you can't explain everything with logic.
Does anybody know the difference between emotions and the Holy Spirit because that's what this really comes down to doesn't it?
Anyways. mees confused lol
BROADWAY PEOPLE
The answer is actually simple Selenah.
These people are not smart after all.
They concentrate and see EVERYTHING
WITH THE EYE, NOW, NOW, NOW.
They discern physically because they
have not been born of the Spirit Selenah.
They might have worldly knowledge but
have NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOD whatsoever.
These are FOOLISH in the eyes of the LORD.
NARROW WAY PEOPLE
These who believe in God are smart
They sacrifice much because they KNOW
that THIS EARTH with all it's worldly desires
will perish with it, but the believer will be
forever WITH CHRIST.
hope this helps clear up things a little
for you.
The answer is actually simple Selenah.
These people are not smart after all.
They concentrate and see EVERYTHING
WITH THE EYE, NOW, NOW, NOW.
They discern physically because they
have not been born of the Spirit Selenah.
They might have worldly knowledge but
have NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOD whatsoever.
These are FOOLISH in the eyes of the LORD.
NARROW WAY PEOPLE
These who believe in God are smart
They sacrifice much because they KNOW
that THIS EARTH with all it's worldly desires
will perish with it, but the believer will be
forever WITH CHRIST.
hope this helps clear up things a little
for you.
Last edited:
J
With that alone, yes, logic should lead one to God. There are many (such as Anthony Flew) who have recognized this. The other thing we must keep in mind in this matter is the nature of man-kind(this includes the ladies).
Prior to regeneration;
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Mans intellect is effected by sin. This is sometimes called the "Noetic Effects of Sin".
Atheists will denounce all sorts of moral evils, and rightly so. Yet when questioned about what grounding it is evil, they can't offer anything rational. Rather it often turns into "It's objectively wrong because I subjectively say so". I could link you to a forum where I've pressed that matter, and a gentleman began to argue on such a level if you so desire.
The origins of the universe is another good example. The atheist in trying to maintain that there is no God, will respond by saying either the universe is eternal, or that which begins to exist doesn't require a cause. That things can come out of existance from nothing by nothing for no reason whatsoever.
Which essentially makes this picture unfortunately accurate:
Well, first of all mathematics has little to do with "discovering" God. The one way that I could see where mathematics would be relevant is going to be a philosophical argument demonstrating the existance of God via laws of logic (and thus mathematical laws). Mathematics when applied to the universe would also cause us to recognize that it is finite (not eternal) and thus due to having begun to exist requires a cause outside of itself.
I would not say there is such a thing as "true science", there is a branch of Philosophy known as "Philosophy of Science". Most scientists don't like to admit it these days, but science is actually the product of philosophy. Another good example of the rationality and irrationality of atheism at the same time. The Christian has good grounds (god) for believing there are immutable laws of nature, while the atheist has no good grounds and rather must simply assume them.
In philosophy of science, I would be an Instrumentalist.
What does that mean?
There is a debate in philosophy of science called realism vs. anti-realism. Basically the question attempted to be answered is, "Can we formulate theories that are anywhere near actuality?" The realist says yes, the anti-realist says no. As an instrumentalist I say, "I don't know, I just want to know if it's going to be useful or not."
The current dominate scientific frame-work is that of Philosophical naturalism. That is why most scientists don't believe in God, it's not a scientific matter but rather is a philosophical assumption. That the only things which exist essentially are matter and energy. When one approaches science and has this assumption, then God to them is not an acceptable conclusion.
The Philosophical naturalism will claim that, "we don't know what caused the beginning of the universe, and we're going to keep looking." What is often un-stated is the fact that they don't want God to be a possible explaination. This is more-so true in philosophy.
The question of "Does God exist?" is primarily a philosophical question rather than a scientific one. Science tells us things, and can give us reasons to believe in God, no doubt.
I think DNA is a great example of that.
Ultimately though, science is the study of the natural world. So when you say, "I can't find God in the trees", then the reason for that is because you're committing a category error, as God is not a part of the natural world (unless you count the body of Christ).
Sure, there are plenty of things in any world-view that upon impression seem illogical, but the thing to do is to examine it beyond feelings. I think most Christians would admit that, parting of the red sea, burning bushes that don't turn to ask, the earth "Standing still", talking donkeys, virgin births, resurrections, and many more supernatural events on feeling alone "seem illogical". When we examine this further we find that that, is not the case at all. In fact, I would argue that it is logically neccesary for these things to have happened.
There is feeling involved, yes. No doubt about that at all. What we can see though through philosophy, science, history, etc, is the rationality of Christianity, and the irrationality of atheism. I will gladly stand on that point.
EDIT:
I know this post is full of spelling and grammar mistakes, and I apologize. I'm not going to fix them though(there's too many for 5 minutes of edit time), if something needs clarified due to an error, please point it out.
Prior to regeneration;
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Mans intellect is effected by sin. This is sometimes called the "Noetic Effects of Sin".
The Noetic Effects of Sin
Of course human reasoning in the present age is never completely free from the influence of sin. Therefor, we must now discuss the nature of unbelief, of disobedience to God's words, and how that unbelief affects knowledge and reasoning-- what theologians call the "noetic effects of sin."
Those who deny god do so, not because they lack evidence, but because their hearts are rebellious. In Romans 1:19-20, the apostle Paul says that
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. for since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without exscuse.
Paul even says that they "knew God" (v.21). God's revelation is clear, but fallen human beings "suppress the truth by their wickedness"(V.18). So the unbeliever's problem is first ethical, and only secondarily intellectual. His intellectual problems stem from his ethical unwillingness to acknowledge the evidence. Unbelief distorts human thought.
..... [continued on next page]
When someone recognizes the truth but seeks to repress it, the result is irrationality. In some cases, we call such repression, "wishful thinking." Sometimes there is psychological repression, in which a person relegates the truth to some subconscious level of the mind. Other times, the truth and error simply exxist side by side, interacting in odd ways, creating contradictions in thought and life. For example, the unbeliever may accept historical evidences for Wellington's defeat of Napoleon, while denying equally cogent evidences for the resurrection of Jesus. This sort of inconsistency does not come from a mere lack of intelligence. It has, rather a spiritual wroot. It comes from living in God's world with a mind created to acknowledge God, but with a disposition of resistance and rebellion against him.
(Five Views on Apologetics, John Frame, P 211-212.)
Another example of how atheism is both rational and irrational at the same time, and a good example at that is the matter of Morality.Of course human reasoning in the present age is never completely free from the influence of sin. Therefor, we must now discuss the nature of unbelief, of disobedience to God's words, and how that unbelief affects knowledge and reasoning-- what theologians call the "noetic effects of sin."
Those who deny god do so, not because they lack evidence, but because their hearts are rebellious. In Romans 1:19-20, the apostle Paul says that
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. for since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without exscuse.
Paul even says that they "knew God" (v.21). God's revelation is clear, but fallen human beings "suppress the truth by their wickedness"(V.18). So the unbeliever's problem is first ethical, and only secondarily intellectual. His intellectual problems stem from his ethical unwillingness to acknowledge the evidence. Unbelief distorts human thought.
..... [continued on next page]
When someone recognizes the truth but seeks to repress it, the result is irrationality. In some cases, we call such repression, "wishful thinking." Sometimes there is psychological repression, in which a person relegates the truth to some subconscious level of the mind. Other times, the truth and error simply exxist side by side, interacting in odd ways, creating contradictions in thought and life. For example, the unbeliever may accept historical evidences for Wellington's defeat of Napoleon, while denying equally cogent evidences for the resurrection of Jesus. This sort of inconsistency does not come from a mere lack of intelligence. It has, rather a spiritual wroot. It comes from living in God's world with a mind created to acknowledge God, but with a disposition of resistance and rebellion against him.
(Five Views on Apologetics, John Frame, P 211-212.)
Atheists will denounce all sorts of moral evils, and rightly so. Yet when questioned about what grounding it is evil, they can't offer anything rational. Rather it often turns into "It's objectively wrong because I subjectively say so". I could link you to a forum where I've pressed that matter, and a gentleman began to argue on such a level if you so desire.
The origins of the universe is another good example. The atheist in trying to maintain that there is no God, will respond by saying either the universe is eternal, or that which begins to exist doesn't require a cause. That things can come out of existance from nothing by nothing for no reason whatsoever.
Which essentially makes this picture unfortunately accurate:
Well, first of all mathematics has little to do with "discovering" God. The one way that I could see where mathematics would be relevant is going to be a philosophical argument demonstrating the existance of God via laws of logic (and thus mathematical laws). Mathematics when applied to the universe would also cause us to recognize that it is finite (not eternal) and thus due to having begun to exist requires a cause outside of itself.
I would not say there is such a thing as "true science", there is a branch of Philosophy known as "Philosophy of Science". Most scientists don't like to admit it these days, but science is actually the product of philosophy. Another good example of the rationality and irrationality of atheism at the same time. The Christian has good grounds (god) for believing there are immutable laws of nature, while the atheist has no good grounds and rather must simply assume them.
In philosophy of science, I would be an Instrumentalist.
What does that mean?
There is a debate in philosophy of science called realism vs. anti-realism. Basically the question attempted to be answered is, "Can we formulate theories that are anywhere near actuality?" The realist says yes, the anti-realist says no. As an instrumentalist I say, "I don't know, I just want to know if it's going to be useful or not."
The current dominate scientific frame-work is that of Philosophical naturalism. That is why most scientists don't believe in God, it's not a scientific matter but rather is a philosophical assumption. That the only things which exist essentially are matter and energy. When one approaches science and has this assumption, then God to them is not an acceptable conclusion.
The Philosophical naturalism will claim that, "we don't know what caused the beginning of the universe, and we're going to keep looking." What is often un-stated is the fact that they don't want God to be a possible explaination. This is more-so true in philosophy.
The question of "Does God exist?" is primarily a philosophical question rather than a scientific one. Science tells us things, and can give us reasons to believe in God, no doubt.
I think DNA is a great example of that.
Ultimately though, science is the study of the natural world. So when you say, "I can't find God in the trees", then the reason for that is because you're committing a category error, as God is not a part of the natural world (unless you count the body of Christ).
Sure, there are plenty of things in any world-view that upon impression seem illogical, but the thing to do is to examine it beyond feelings. I think most Christians would admit that, parting of the red sea, burning bushes that don't turn to ask, the earth "Standing still", talking donkeys, virgin births, resurrections, and many more supernatural events on feeling alone "seem illogical". When we examine this further we find that that, is not the case at all. In fact, I would argue that it is logically neccesary for these things to have happened.
There is feeling involved, yes. No doubt about that at all. What we can see though through philosophy, science, history, etc, is the rationality of Christianity, and the irrationality of atheism. I will gladly stand on that point.
EDIT:
I know this post is full of spelling and grammar mistakes, and I apologize. I'm not going to fix them though(there's too many for 5 minutes of edit time), if something needs clarified due to an error, please point it out.
Last edited:
F
The example of it being hard for a rich man to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is the church that Christ set up. I believe that there are many rich men included in the elect but their love of money prohibits them from entering into the church that Christ set up which is his kingdom.
J
A lot of explainations offered by Christians are just as illogical as atheists, because Christianity in the United States is largely intellectually bankrupt. It has largely come from an anti-intellectualism that grips modern evangelicalism with a strangle-hold. It comes from the type of people who say that philosophy, learning, education, knowledge of the world (not worldly) are somehow enemies to faith. The bible says to pray for wisdom, and it seems many Christians would rather that verse not be there. I think it also stems from intimidation. Many Christians aren't that informed, and are intimidated when an atheist asks a seemingly difficult question such as, "If God is good why do bad things happen?"
If you look at those who address atheists seriously in an intellectual manner, you will quickly discover that Christianity has got it going on.
The Christian position is that God is eternal, and thus did not "come from" anything.
In one sense, I think I would agree. Logic I don't think can explain everything in an exhaustive manner. This is part of why I am a Presuppositionalist.
Logic is a very useful tool indeed, and it is probably one of the most reliable methods of ascertaining truth that we have.
I don't know the difference, but I can know some things aren't the Holy Spirit based on what scripture indicates.
If you get an answer on "how to tell" that would be great if you could share it with me as well.
That's alright, I've been through all of this myself.
I'm happy to help a Brother or Sistern along in the walk of faith..
If you look at those who address atheists seriously in an intellectual manner, you will quickly discover that Christianity has got it going on.
The Christian position is that God is eternal, and thus did not "come from" anything.
In one sense, I think I would agree. Logic I don't think can explain everything in an exhaustive manner. This is part of why I am a Presuppositionalist.
Logic is a very useful tool indeed, and it is probably one of the most reliable methods of ascertaining truth that we have.
I don't know the difference, but I can know some things aren't the Holy Spirit based on what scripture indicates.
If you get an answer on "how to tell" that would be great if you could share it with me as well.
That's alright, I've been through all of this myself.
I'm happy to help a Brother or Sistern along in the walk of faith..
A
Intelligence is not a sign of wisdom.
Sometimes I hear the smallest child say the wisest things.
James 3
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
Sometimes I hear the smallest child say the wisest things.
James 3
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
I would say that it has something to do with Christianity historically having little tolerance for people who think critically.
The church has a history of resisting social, political and scientific change, and nearly always tends to favor the "traditional" way that things are done. To take an extreme example to illustrate a point- the Amish and some Mennonites live lifestyles from the 16th and 17th centuries. Why? It isn't exactly like they are emulating Christ, as he obviously preceeded that time period by 1700 years. It is because that was the time in which the radical reformation emerged and is the "golden age" for these particular movements. We have a tendency to idealize or romanticize eras from the past (this is not a Christian tendency, but a human tendency, i.e. Republican idealizing of the founding period, despite widespread social injustice). Unfortunately, the history of the church includes many episodes of resisting change that was later shown to be based on fact (the earth is round, not flat, and its not the center of the solar system, notions that were not only resisted, but decried as evil works of Satan!).
For me it all comes back to the church's very uneasy relationship with critical thinking. The church insists on doctrines which defy logic, doctrines such as the inerrancy of the autographs of scripture, when we do not have any autographs on which to base this claim or any means to test it. It is one thing to say that for some things we must have faith, and another thing entirely to say that for some things we must have faith, even though it blatantly contradicts all the evidence that we can summon on the issue. For many Christians today, when faith and logic contradict they assume that faith is right and the logic is flawed, even if they can't explain how or why. For intellectuals, when faith and logic contradict, the only option is to side with logic.
The church has a history of resisting social, political and scientific change, and nearly always tends to favor the "traditional" way that things are done. To take an extreme example to illustrate a point- the Amish and some Mennonites live lifestyles from the 16th and 17th centuries. Why? It isn't exactly like they are emulating Christ, as he obviously preceeded that time period by 1700 years. It is because that was the time in which the radical reformation emerged and is the "golden age" for these particular movements. We have a tendency to idealize or romanticize eras from the past (this is not a Christian tendency, but a human tendency, i.e. Republican idealizing of the founding period, despite widespread social injustice). Unfortunately, the history of the church includes many episodes of resisting change that was later shown to be based on fact (the earth is round, not flat, and its not the center of the solar system, notions that were not only resisted, but decried as evil works of Satan!).
For me it all comes back to the church's very uneasy relationship with critical thinking. The church insists on doctrines which defy logic, doctrines such as the inerrancy of the autographs of scripture, when we do not have any autographs on which to base this claim or any means to test it. It is one thing to say that for some things we must have faith, and another thing entirely to say that for some things we must have faith, even though it blatantly contradicts all the evidence that we can summon on the issue. For many Christians today, when faith and logic contradict they assume that faith is right and the logic is flawed, even if they can't explain how or why. For intellectuals, when faith and logic contradict, the only option is to side with logic.
Matthew 11:25-26 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
It has been my experience over the years that people who have intellect have a huge hazard in their life... that being they rely on their own intellect and understanding. It says in Proverbs 3:5 & 6 "Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight."
I have observed that most who deem themselves to be intelligent seem to have 2 major flaws. They believe what man says, and thus become blind followers of man's extremely limited wisdom, and they cannot reason beyond their own nose... that is, they will not acknowledge that there may be things and beings beyond their own ability to experience, or if they do, they tend to err toward the ridiculous. They will believe that man came from beings from other planets with no proof at all, while there is extensive historical documentation for the veracity of Jesus Christ and His message which they choose to ignore.
Raw intellect is like an uncontrolled fire. It goes wherever it can and tends to be destructive and not creative. Intellect without reason, true wisdom, or humility is the among the worst of vanities. God told us in Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 to love Him with all our heart soul mind and strength and to love our neighbor as our self. Man in his desire to do things his own way has tried everything he knows to do to bless himself without having to rely on God and do things God's way. We have been at it for many millenia, and as advanced as man's technology and societies may be, we have not learned a way to bless one another and to be blessed apart from God. The fact is, the longer we go, the worse the human condition gets. We are at our very best interested in self first, and even what appears as man doing noble things without God is actually the imago Dei, that is, God's image showing through in spite of our fallen nature.
Know that there is a cure for this fallen nature, and that cure is found in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
I will leave you a link that will help explain how you can obtain that cure free of charge. God bless you.
The Inside Story Tract - Thru the Bible Radio
It has been my experience over the years that people who have intellect have a huge hazard in their life... that being they rely on their own intellect and understanding. It says in Proverbs 3:5 & 6 "Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight."
I have observed that most who deem themselves to be intelligent seem to have 2 major flaws. They believe what man says, and thus become blind followers of man's extremely limited wisdom, and they cannot reason beyond their own nose... that is, they will not acknowledge that there may be things and beings beyond their own ability to experience, or if they do, they tend to err toward the ridiculous. They will believe that man came from beings from other planets with no proof at all, while there is extensive historical documentation for the veracity of Jesus Christ and His message which they choose to ignore.
Raw intellect is like an uncontrolled fire. It goes wherever it can and tends to be destructive and not creative. Intellect without reason, true wisdom, or humility is the among the worst of vanities. God told us in Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 to love Him with all our heart soul mind and strength and to love our neighbor as our self. Man in his desire to do things his own way has tried everything he knows to do to bless himself without having to rely on God and do things God's way. We have been at it for many millenia, and as advanced as man's technology and societies may be, we have not learned a way to bless one another and to be blessed apart from God. The fact is, the longer we go, the worse the human condition gets. We are at our very best interested in self first, and even what appears as man doing noble things without God is actually the imago Dei, that is, God's image showing through in spite of our fallen nature.
Know that there is a cure for this fallen nature, and that cure is found in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
I will leave you a link that will help explain how you can obtain that cure free of charge. God bless you.
The Inside Story Tract - Thru the Bible Radio
C
I would say because its the institutions which promote secular beliefs themselve indoctrinate people; by holding the massive belief that the Lord doesn't exist, then they can try to convince and make people doubt. Why? Conspiracy theory.
Another reason is kind of like the defiance of Jesus because of the devil; was it not written that the devil is for the works of man, not for the works of the Lord or anything Holy? Thus this could be seen as a rebellion of man against the Lord just like babel and just like Noah's time, asserting themselves as people who do not require divinity, proclaiming "liberty and freedom", which leads to sin and eventually Hell.
More reasons of course.
Another reason is kind of like the defiance of Jesus because of the devil; was it not written that the devil is for the works of man, not for the works of the Lord or anything Holy? Thus this could be seen as a rebellion of man against the Lord just like babel and just like Noah's time, asserting themselves as people who do not require divinity, proclaiming "liberty and freedom", which leads to sin and eventually Hell.
More reasons of course.
S
Yeah that thing about the Bible being innerant bothers me. How do people really truly know that the Bible is inerrant?
That kind of makes me wonder how do we even know if we have the right god? People say that the God of the Bible is the one true God, but then they always base that claim on Bible verses. Isn't that circular reasoning? They say that the God of the Bible stands out because He's different from other gods, but I don't see how. We still have to do things to be saved like repent everytime we sin, forgive every person, and make sure we don't hate anyone. If we mess up and don't forgive this person or don't let go of our anger against that person before we die we go to hell. I don't get it. How is that really any different from what other relgions teach?
Anyways that was really of topic, but those questions still keeping bothering me.
That kind of makes me wonder how do we even know if we have the right god? People say that the God of the Bible is the one true God, but then they always base that claim on Bible verses. Isn't that circular reasoning? They say that the God of the Bible stands out because He's different from other gods, but I don't see how. We still have to do things to be saved like repent everytime we sin, forgive every person, and make sure we don't hate anyone. If we mess up and don't forgive this person or don't let go of our anger against that person before we die we go to hell. I don't get it. How is that really any different from what other relgions teach?
Anyways that was really of topic, but those questions still keeping bothering me.
S
I would recommend looking up "Dr. William Lane Craig" and watching some of his debates with some of the... I guess you could say more popular atheists in the world today. His website: is Reasonable Faith:
Watch this clip:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14YM7MP6HzY&feature=related[/video]
Watch this clip:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14YM7MP6HzY&feature=related[/video]
T
Do you have any evidence for any of these statements?
Are more intelligent people atheists than believers in any particular religion? (And, if so, how do you define "intelligent people"? People with an IQ over, say 120?)
Are more university professors atheists than believers?
Are more "successful" people atheists? (and there's another word that's hard to define: success)
Wealthy people? (And how wealthy? Someone who makes $40K a year, when compared to someone in Africa, is very wealthy.)
And why do you equate "liberal" and "atheist"? Do you think the two are exclusive and identical? Surely, you realize that there are liberals who believe in God, and conservatives who do not.
I would not say that knowledge "draws people away" from a belief in God. For every "smart person" who decided that God doesn't fit into their universe, I can find at least one brilliant mind who realizes that the universe is just too big to explain with science alone. For every "smart person" who refuses to believe in that which he or she cannot see, touch, smell, hear, or taste, I can find at least one intelligent soul who knows that the inability to prove the existence of something doesn't mean that you have proven the nonexistence of it.
I've met with and talked to some of the highest intellects in the world. They are theologians, philosophers, scientists, musicians, etc. I have to say, I see no evidence that intelligence has anything to do with faith, or lack thereof.
Are more intelligent people atheists than believers in any particular religion? (And, if so, how do you define "intelligent people"? People with an IQ over, say 120?)
Are more university professors atheists than believers?
Are more "successful" people atheists? (and there's another word that's hard to define: success)
Wealthy people? (And how wealthy? Someone who makes $40K a year, when compared to someone in Africa, is very wealthy.)
And why do you equate "liberal" and "atheist"? Do you think the two are exclusive and identical? Surely, you realize that there are liberals who believe in God, and conservatives who do not.
I would not say that knowledge "draws people away" from a belief in God. For every "smart person" who decided that God doesn't fit into their universe, I can find at least one brilliant mind who realizes that the universe is just too big to explain with science alone. For every "smart person" who refuses to believe in that which he or she cannot see, touch, smell, hear, or taste, I can find at least one intelligent soul who knows that the inability to prove the existence of something doesn't mean that you have proven the nonexistence of it.
I've met with and talked to some of the highest intellects in the world. They are theologians, philosophers, scientists, musicians, etc. I have to say, I see no evidence that intelligence has anything to do with faith, or lack thereof.
S
Hey Selenah,
These are all very honest and good questions that you should not shy away from asking people. I would recommend this article on what exactly we mean by Biblical Inerranc: The Bible: The Inerrant Word of God | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
As to the question whether you're asking "Is the Bible the word of God?", and appealing to the Bible being circular reasoning or not. Well, the answer is both yes and no. It really depends on the content of what is being discussed. For example if someone is showing you, lets say, prophecies about the Messiah in the Old Testament and then showing you where they are fulfilled in Jesus, then no that would not be circular reasoning. It would be examining historical documents, namely the books of the Bible and searching for consistency within the books that make up what we call "the Bible". On the flip side, if you are asking someone if the Bible is true and they show you a passage from the Bible that says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God...." (Ref. 2 Tim. 3:16) Then yes, that would be circular reasoning.
I would really recommend listening to this lecture on the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus. If Jesus truly did resurrect from the dead, then we can trust the words of Jesus and therefore follow His teachings in the New Testament.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsYXKKAJp8M[/video]
These are all very honest and good questions that you should not shy away from asking people. I would recommend this article on what exactly we mean by Biblical Inerranc: The Bible: The Inerrant Word of God | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
As to the question whether you're asking "Is the Bible the word of God?", and appealing to the Bible being circular reasoning or not. Well, the answer is both yes and no. It really depends on the content of what is being discussed. For example if someone is showing you, lets say, prophecies about the Messiah in the Old Testament and then showing you where they are fulfilled in Jesus, then no that would not be circular reasoning. It would be examining historical documents, namely the books of the Bible and searching for consistency within the books that make up what we call "the Bible". On the flip side, if you are asking someone if the Bible is true and they show you a passage from the Bible that says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God...." (Ref. 2 Tim. 3:16) Then yes, that would be circular reasoning.
I would really recommend listening to this lecture on the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus. If Jesus truly did resurrect from the dead, then we can trust the words of Jesus and therefore follow His teachings in the New Testament.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsYXKKAJp8M[/video]
I would expect so, since neither Christians nor atheists are innerant, nor are either Christians or atheists inherently one more intelligent (in the worldly sense) than the other.
I'm assuming you mean where they ultimately came from, since most of the elements come from nuclear fusion in stars, and the remaining light elements came from the cooling of the quark-gluon plasma when the universe was young. However, it makes no sense to expect that scientists should be able to answers questions like this, since science is progressive and notoriously difficult, not instantaneous. To assume that because scientists can't currently answer a question means that it is not answerable by science is an extremely common but naive error in reasoning.
That's a loaded statement since God didn't come from anywhere, since He is eternal, which means that He has always existed (or exists outside time).
That's also a loaded statement since logic was never purpoted to be able to explain everything. Nor are we capable of knowing or understanding everything, for that matter.
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)
That's why we are supposed to trust God.
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)
Sure. Emotions:
9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. (Romans 8:7)
Holy Spirit:
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (John 14:26)
5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Romans 14:17)
13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. (Romans 15:13)
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (1 Corinthians 2:13)
I'm assuming you mean where they ultimately came from, since most of the elements come from nuclear fusion in stars, and the remaining light elements came from the cooling of the quark-gluon plasma when the universe was young. However, it makes no sense to expect that scientists should be able to answers questions like this, since science is progressive and notoriously difficult, not instantaneous. To assume that because scientists can't currently answer a question means that it is not answerable by science is an extremely common but naive error in reasoning.
That's a loaded statement since God didn't come from anywhere, since He is eternal, which means that He has always existed (or exists outside time).
That's also a loaded statement since logic was never purpoted to be able to explain everything. Nor are we capable of knowing or understanding everything, for that matter.
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)
That's why we are supposed to trust God.
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)
Sure. Emotions:
9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. (Romans 8:7)
Holy Spirit:
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (John 14:26)
5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Romans 14:17)
13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. (Romans 15:13)
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (1 Corinthians 2:13)
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16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
If you believe the Bible, then you believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17, which says that all scripture is given by inspiration of God (literally, God-breathed). Since God breathed and inspired the scriptures, and He is inerrant, the scriptures necessarily are inerrant as well.
Wrong.
Of course, but it's not true in the first place (see below).
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
We are saved by grace through faith, which is the gift of God.
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:3-7)
To those whom God has given faith He has saved, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction. (Proverbs 1:7)
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
5 Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, And find the knowledge of God. (Proverbs 2:5)
We're actually incapable of doing any of those things, since we don't have any righteousness of our own.
8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; (Philippians 3:8-9)
Instead, we have the righteousness of God, who, by faith, works in us and through us. If God has chosen to save us, He will perform good works in us. True repentance is a continual state of striving for righteousness through the power of God, not living in a state of sin and just repenting of it all before you die.
If you believe the Bible, then you believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17, which says that all scripture is given by inspiration of God (literally, God-breathed). Since God breathed and inspired the scriptures, and He is inerrant, the scriptures necessarily are inerrant as well.
Wrong.
Of course, but it's not true in the first place (see below).
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
We are saved by grace through faith, which is the gift of God.
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:3-7)
To those whom God has given faith He has saved, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction. (Proverbs 1:7)
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
5 Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, And find the knowledge of God. (Proverbs 2:5)
We're actually incapable of doing any of those things, since we don't have any righteousness of our own.
8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; (Philippians 3:8-9)
Instead, we have the righteousness of God, who, by faith, works in us and through us. If God has chosen to save us, He will perform good works in us. True repentance is a continual state of striving for righteousness through the power of God, not living in a state of sin and just repenting of it all before you die.