Parable of the sower

[Forest]

Don't know where you got your take on the parable of the sower from. Seems not unfair to say it could be your private interpretation. While you apparently correctly and rightly hold to the sovereignity of God in salvation, which includes election, your view of "the eternally saved" is quite unclear and far fetched. Do you hold to the error of eternal justification?

Where are the objectives for justification/salvation if there is basically no dividing line in beliefs and doctrine, and the fruit of regeneration? Was Paul all wrong when he judged that those that are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel were lost? Can a person who believes in a false gospel be regenerate? Can a regenerated person be ignorant about the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel? These questions cannot be answered in the positive without going against scripture.

I asked you a very serious related question (which you either missed or didn't want to reply to) in the thread Those that God gave Christ, which is located here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/34376-those-god-gave-christ-9.html#post594463 <- link

Now, if you will, you may give us a clearer picture of your thoughts on these matters.

Most people are in a lot of confusion because of the way they interpret the salvation scriptures. Salvation according to the Greek meaning, means 'a deliverance". We are delivered from many things as we sojourn in this world, such as, When we pray to God for a healing of a certian illness that we have and when he heals us, that is a deliverance (timely salvation). Eternal salvation is being delivered from this present evil world. Most of the salvation scriptures are refering to timely salvations, for example of the two different salvations, We are saved (eternal) by grace without man's works, and, Save yourselves from this untoward generation, Eph 2:5 & Acts 2:40. All of the elect of God do not fully understand the truth, but that does not mean that they are not saved eternally, such as in the parable of the soils. There is a timely salvation in coming unto the understanding of the truth, the good soil. Another example of a timely salvation is found in Rom 10. This happens to be a favorit scripture of Shroom's trying to establish his eternal salvation on his good works, Paul is warning those people, that have a zeal of God,being born of the Spirit, to repent of going about establishing their own (works of ) righteousness and to submit themselves unto the righteousness of God, verse 2-3. Telling them that they can be saved (timely), as soon as they become dependant upon God's righteousness and not their own. I have explained many other examles of timely salvations on my other post's, but if you want me to explain further, let me know.

 

[Israel]

Most people are in a lot of confusion because of the way they interpret the salvation scriptures. Salvation according to the Greek meaning, means 'a deliverance". We are delivered from many things as we sojourn in this world, such as, When we pray to God for a healing of a certian illness that we have and when he heals us, that is a deliverance (timely salvation). Eternal salvation is being delivered from this present evil world. Most of the salvation scriptures are refering to timely salvations, for example of the two different salvations, We are saved (eternal) by grace without man's works, and, Save yourselves from this untoward generation, Eph 2:5 & Acts 2:40. All of the elect of God do not fully understand the truth, but that does not mean that they are not saved eternally, such as in the parable of the soils. There is a timely salvation in coming unto the understanding of the truth, the good soil. Another example of a timely salvation is found in Rom 10. This happens to be a favorit scripture of Shroom's trying to establish his eternal salvation on his good works, Paul is warning those people, that have a zeal of God,being born of the Spirit, to repent of going about establishing their own (works of ) righteousness and to submit themselves unto the righteousness of God, verse 2-3. Telling them that they can be saved (timely), as soon as they become dependant upon God's righteousness and not their own. I have explained many other examles of timely salvations on my other post's, but if you want me to explain further, let me know.

Do you believe that God is the Father of all?

 

[Forest]

[/QUOTE]Those that reject him.
Those that reject his commandments.
These are not given into his hand to shepperd.
And when we are not sheppered by him, all sorts of catastraphies can happen, and will happen.


These ones are left up to Fate. Anything goes. No protection. No armour.

No direction, just the wide path that leads to destruction.

The fruits of their doings they will reap.

We are not left up to fate. For we know our direction, and we have entrusted ourselves to the Lamb of God. We have hope, and fear is cast out, for we suffer only for the lambs sake. For the Word of God, and we are outcasts to the world, but beloved to the lamb.

If our fruits match the worlds, then we will have a share in their punishment.

If you are truthful, don't you sometimes reject his commandments? If so, and I know that you do, only Christ was able to keep the whole law, do you feel that you are not eternally saved?

 

[tribesman]

Most people are in a lot of confusion because of the way they interpret the salvation scriptures. Salvation according to the Greek meaning, means 'a deliverance". We are delivered from many things as we sojourn in this world, such as, When we pray to God for a healing of a certian illness that we have and when he heals us, that is a deliverance (timely salvation). Eternal salvation is being delivered from this present evil world. Most of the salvation scriptures are refering to timely salvations, for example of the two different salvations, We are saved (eternal) by grace without man's works, and, Save yourselves from this untoward generation, Eph 2:5 & Acts 2:40. All of the elect of God do not fully understand the truth, but that does not mean that they are not saved eternally, such as in the parable of the soils. There is a timely salvation in coming unto the understanding of the truth, the good soil. Another example of a timely salvation is found in Rom 10. This happens to be a favorit scripture of Shroom's trying to establish his eternal salvation on his good works, Paul is warning those people, that have a zeal of God,being born of the Spirit, to repent of going about establishing their own (works of ) righteousness and to submit themselves unto the righteousness of God, verse 2-3. Telling them that they can be saved (timely), as soon as they become dependant upon God's righteousness and not their own. I have explained many other examles of timely salvations on my other post's, but if you want me to explain further, let me know.

Yes, there is a difference in scripture between timely salvation/deliverance and salvation of the soul, but they are often related or connected. However, this was not really what my question was about. Although I agree on that a child of God can lack much in knowledge about many things that are spoken of in the scriptures, I cannot see how a child of God can be ignorant about the righteousness of God revealed in gospel. This is a knowledge that all regenerated persons possess through regeneration, and, that all unregenerated persons does not possess. Paul said that those who are ignorant about the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel are lost. Not saved.

You have also said in another thread:

I believe that his elect are numbered as the sand of the sea and the stars in the sky in number.

Rom.9

[25] As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
[26] And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
[27] Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
[28] For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Finally, here's a link on the error of eternal justification:

Hyper-Calvinism and the error of Eternal Justification <- link

 

[Forest]

Do you believe that God is the Father of all?

No! Jesus told some that their Father is the devil,John 8:44. God says "those that have not the Spirit are none of his,Rom 8:9.

 

[Forest]

Yes, there is a difference in scripture between timely salvation/deliverance and salvation of the soul, but they are often related or connected. However, this was not really what my question was about. Although I agree on that a child of God can lack much in knowledge about many things that are spoken of in the scriptures, I cannot see how a child of God can be ignorant about the righteousness of God revealed in gospel. This is a knowledge that all regenerated persons possess through regeneration, and, that all unregenerated persons does not possess. Paul said that those who are ignorant about the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel are lost. Not saved.

You have also said in another thread:



Finally, here's a link on the error of eternal justification:

Hyper-Calvinism and the error of Eternal Justification <- link

I do not take John Calvin's thoughts or any othe man's thoughts as athority, only the inspired scriptures of the KJV and Greek transulaters, so I did not read your link. All of the children of God understands that God is righteous, however, most of them are still on the milk of the word, and do not understand the full truth of the gospel, 1 Pet 2:2. as indicated in the parable of the sower, and also in the parable of the two gates in Matt 7:13-14. Christ's doctrine has a larger scope of the eternally saved people than any other false doctrine except those who falsely believe that all mankind will have eternal life.

 

[iamsoandso]

and the sea gave up the dead that was in it,,,,,,,,let the dead be dead still,,,,,,,,,,,,,some unto eternal life,,,,,,,"some unto eternal salvation",,,,,"which one is not obtained eternal life?",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,one is in eternal agony,,,,,one is at peace,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but both will be raised and both will spend eternity,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"alive",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"all,,,,,,all were raised,,,,in the blood of Christ",,this is the part they don't see,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"all",,,,the "gleamers",,,,,,,,,,,,only "gleam" at the "resurrection of the righteous",,and in doing so do not se the "dead" are also "raised in the blood of Christ"

 

[tribesman]

I do not take John Calvin's thoughts or any othe man's thoughts as athority, only the inspired scriptures of the KJV and Greek transulaters, so I did not read your link. All of the children of God understands that God is righteous, however, most of them are still on the milk of the word, and do not understand the full truth of the gospel, 1 Pet 2:2. as indicated in the parable of the sower, and also in the parable of the two gates in Matt 7:13-14. Christ's doctrine has a larger scope of the eternally saved people than any other false doctrine except those who falsely believe that all mankind will have eternal life.

My question now then is whether you think there be any objectives in salvation? If God's children can be recognized or discerned at all (or not) by what they believe and teach and how regeneration has affected their lives? What I am thoughtful about here is that any view that lays justification wholly outside it surfacing in time tends to make the concept of salvation a lottery, as there are really no distinct marks of who is saved. How would you view this?

 

[Israel]

No! Jesus told some that their Father is the devil,John 8:44. God says "those that have not the Spirit are none of his,Rom 8:9.

Malachi 2:10

10Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

There's that word "all" again. But I guess for you this is only the "elect"as well. Our have you not heard:

Ephesians 4:4-8

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

You must understand the meaning of the verses you quote. What does out mean to be of the devil? Were not His disciples also rebuked by Him whenever they were of that same spirit?

 

[Forest]

That's why you do not have truth, Forest. The scripture you misuse to "prove" your beliefs do not "harmonise" with all the scripture that say we DO have a choice to repent and come to God, and that God does want all men to be saved.

If you believe that way, then God will save all mankind, Dan4:35, but I don't believe that all mankind will be saved because he doesn't want to save all mankind.

 

[Forest]

But that is exactly what it says. Who is not given into Jesus hand?

All mankind will not be eternally saved Matt 25:46.

 

[Forest]

My question now then is whether you think there be any objectives in salvation? If God's children can be recognized or discerned at all (or not) by what they believe and teach and how regeneration has affected their lives? What I am thoughtful about here is that any view that lays justification wholly outside it surfacing in time tends to make the concept of salvation a lottery, as there are really no distinct marks of who is saved. How would you view this?

I think it is a dangerous thing to try to say someone is of the elect and someone else is not of the elect, even though Jesus said we will know them by their fruits. Sometimes the non-elect will do things that seemingly is of the Spirit, but in effect, they are only doing it to promote themselves. David, when he was king, numbered Israel which was not pleasing to God and by his wrath killed a lot of people as punishment to David, by the way, he let David choose his own punishment from three choices. An interesting account found in 2 Samuel 24. So, I don't believe that we should try to number the elect, or say who is or who is not. I hope that answered your question, if not, let me know.

 

[Forest]

Malachi 2:10

10Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

There's that word "all" again. But I guess for you this is only the "elect"as well. Our have you not heard:

Ephesians 4:4-8

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

You must understand the meaning of the verses you quote. What does out mean to be of the devil? Were not His disciples also rebuked by Him whenever they were of that same spirit?

Yes, you are right that this is speaking of those of his elect. Eph 4:4, God calls only his elect and he calls all of them. All who are called (his elect) are predestinated, called, justified and glorified, Rom 8:30. God is not the Father of the non-elect. All mankind will not be eternaly saved.

 

[Israel]

Yes, you are right that this is speaking of those of his elect. Eph 4:4, God calls only his elect and he calls all of them. All who are called (his elect) are predestinated, called, justified and glorified, Rom 8:30. God is not the Father of the non-elect. All mankind will not be eternaly saved.

So am I saved as one of the elect?

 

[shroom2]

If you believe that way, then God will save all mankind, Dan4:35, but I don't believe that all mankind will be saved because he doesn't want to save all mankind.

Man has free will, Forest. He can choose to come to God, or not. God wants all men to be saved, but He will not dictate a person's future. Almighty God left that up to each person.

 

[Forest]

So am I saved as one of the elect?

If I would have to guess, I would have to guess, Yes. but you are believing a false doctrine of all mankind being saved eternaly. You would be of one of the other soils nor that of the good soil.

 

[Forest]

Man has free will, Forest. He can choose to come to God, or not. God wants all men to be saved, but He will not dictate a person's future. Almighty God left that up to each person.

So, your loving God wills that all mankind be eternaly saved, and he has the power to save them, but he doesn't because man want let him save them, AND THAT MAKES SENSE TO YOU? Also how do you fit Dan 4:35 into your kind of thinking?

 

[shroom2]

So, your loving God wills that all mankind be eternaly saved, and he has the power to save them, but he doesn't because man want let him save them, AND THAT MAKES SENSE TO YOU?

God will not override a person's free will. He requires people to believe. If they refuse to believe, God's hands are tied. God gave YOU control of your life.

Also how do you fit Dan 4:35 into your kind of thinking?

Dan 4:35) And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Where does that verse say God controls people?

 

[Forest]

God will not override a person's free will. He requires people to believe. If they refuse to believe, God's hands are tied. God gave YOU control of your life.



Dan 4:35) And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Where does that verse say God controls people?

You say "God's hands are tied" yet Dan 4:35 says "none can stay his hand". Is that not contradicting yourself? Or do you not care if the scriptures harmonise or not?

 

[shroom2]

You say "God's hands are tied" yet Dan 4:35 says "none can stay his hand". Is that not contradicting yourself? Or do you not care if the scriptures harmonise or not?

The scripture must harmonize, and they do.

None can stay His hand as far as God's plan for making available the salvation of man through Christ, and the coming millennial kingdom and final heaven and earth. It will happen. But He will not override a man's free will. If a person refuses to believe, in that situation God's hands are tied. He will not make them believe, nor will He save them without their choosing to believe.