Trinity

[CanadaNZ]

Augustine said, "if you deny the trinity you lose your soul, if you try to explain it lose your mind."

The Trinity is one God who eternally exists as three distinct persons, Father, Son, and Spirit, who are each fully and equally God.

John 6:27, speaking of God the Father, simply says, “God, the Father,” so the Father is God. 1 Corinthians 8:6 says, “There is one God, the Father.” So my first premise is that God the Father is God. What I would say is this: I’m not gonna belabor the point because virtually everyone agrees that the Father is God throughout the Bible. In the history of the world there have been innumerable heresies and false teachings. I can’t find one significant one that denied that God the Father was God. I mean, even the heretics get this one right. Even the cult leaders see it. It’s that obvious, okay? So God the Father is God.

Secondly, Jesus is God. Now, this becomes more debated. One of the great places we see that Jesus is God is John 1. “In the beginning,” we hear – it’s an echo of Genesis 1, “was the Word.” You’ll say, “Well, who is this Word?” “And the Word was with God.” So he’s back in the beginning. “And the word was” – what’s the word? – “God. The Word was with God. The Word was God.” So whoever the Word is, he’s with God the Father and he is God. It goes on to say in say in John 1:14, “And the Word became flesh” – became a human being – “and made his dwelling among us” – came to the earth. Who’s that? Well, that’s Jesus, God the Son. Jesus, God the Son, is with God the Father, and he is God, and he became a man.
Give you a few more. John 8:58 – this is Jesus speaking. “Truly, truly I say to you,” he says, “before Abraham was born, I am.” I am. Now, it says in the next verse that the religious leaders who were present took up stones to stone him for blasphemy. Elsewhere, it is said by Jesus’ critics upon him asking them this question, “Why do you seek to put me to death?” They declare, “Because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” The whole reason Jesus died? He kept saying he was God. And in saying, “Before Abraham was, I am,” he was saying that he was the God of the Old Testament, he existed far before his birth, he is from eternity past God. He says, “I pre-exist Abraham. I’m Abraham’s God.” And he says, “I am.” That comes out of Exodus 3:14 where God showed up and spoke to Moses. Moses asked, “Who should I say has sent me?” And God says, “Tell them I am has sent you.” Jesus says, “I am – I am God. I’m the God of Abraham. I’m the God of Moses.” And they said, “We’re going to kill you because you keep saying you’re God.



Additionally John 20:28 – Thomas got it right. Seeing Jesus risen from death he fell down. Do you remember what he cried out? “My Lord and my God,” Thomas says regarding Jesus. Romans 9:5 says, “Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God.” Titus 2:13 speaks of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.


There’s one God. The Father is God. The Son is God. And so is the Holy Spirit, okay?


The Holy Spirit is God, third member of the Trinity, God the Spirit. I’ll give you two places in the New Testament. 2 Corinthians 3:17-18: “Now the Lord is the Spirit” – that title is very important. Lord is a title for God. So when it says the Lord is the Holy Spirit it’s saying the Lord God is Holy Spirit. So he says, “The Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled faces, beholding the glory of God, are being transformed to the same image from one degree of glory to another, for this comes from” – he says it again – “the Lord, who is the Holy Spirit.” Who is the Spirit.
I’ll give another example where the Holy Spirit is declared to be God – Acts 5. Peter is the pastor the church. There are church members, Ananias and Sapphira. They are a couple. They choose to sell a piece of property and they make a pledge, a promise, a vow to God that they will then give all of the proceeds to the church for the work of the ministry. They decide not to give all the money that they have promised and they keep some of it back. In a sense, they’re stealing from God as Judas Iscariot did. Here’s what Peter says to them. “Ananias” – chapter 5, verses 3 and 4 of Acts – “why has Satan filled your heart” – same thing he did to Judas Iscariot to steal – “to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back for yourselves part of the proceeds of the land? You have not lied to men,” Peter says. “You have lied to” whom? What’s the line? God. Peter says, “You have lied to the Holy Spirit. You – it’s bad enough to lie to a man. You have lied to God. The Holy Spirit is God and you’ve lied to him.”


First point: there’s one God. Second point: God the Father is God. Third point: God the Son is God. Fourth point: God the Holy Spirit is God. One God – Father, Son, and Spirit. Bring those together, you arrive at the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[CanadaNZ]

Trinity in the Old Testament?



Moving on, next question. Does the Trinity appear in the Old Testament? This is a common question. Well, we’ll start in the book of beginnings because that’s where the Trinity begins. The first line of the Bible, Genesis 1, I’ll read it to you. Some would say – and the reason I bring this up – some would say, “The Jews in the Old Testament had no concept of the Trinity.” And I would say, “Some did, who read the Bible and took it at face value.”
“In the beginning” – we’ll deal with this in a few weeks when we hit creation. But “In the beginning God” – and the word for God there is Elohim. It’s a plural. “God” – Elohim – “created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void and darkness was over the face of the deep.” And who was there? “The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water.” So the opening line of the Bible, “In the beginning, God” – first things first, you have to know who God is. You say, “Well, what about life and love and nations and cultures and justice and and family and friendship and economics?” First things first – God. Once you know who God is, then we can work on everything else. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” and there at the beginning, before creation, assisting in creation is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit.


Now, what I want to share with you now is super exciting to me ‘cause I’m kind of a geek. And I really like the Bible and I like learning things I did not know. And I learned something this week that I did not know. It’s called the Targum Neofiti. It’s from roughly 200 years before the birth of Jesus Christ.


Now, let me tell you what a targum is, okay? A targum was an accepted Jewish translation and reading of the Old Testament, okay? And the Jewish scholars would translate, read the Old Testament and they would write them down as accepted targums. Now this targum – again, think is through – is 200 years before the birth of Jesus, more than 200 years before the Christian church in its present form came into existence, 500 years before the Council of Nicea where the Christian theologians officially declared the doctrine of the Trinity as true orthodoxy. Hundreds of years prior, here is the Targum Neofiti.


Genesis 1:1-2, it declared, “In the beginning, by the Firstborn” – who’s that? That’s Jesus. That’s the same language we find in the New Testament. Paul says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, and he is the firstborn – that’s preeminence. That’s prominence. That’s rulership over all creation. “In the beginning, by the Firstborn” – Jesus – “God” – that’s the Father – “created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.” I can show that there were Jews who were waiting for the coming of Jesus Messiah who loved and studied the Bible – 200 years before the coming of Jesus interpreted Genesis 1, the opening line of the Bible, and Genesis 2 to be Trinitarian. That the Father through Jesus Christ, the preeminent firstborn Son, along with the Holy Spirit created everything. Trinitarian.
Now, in light of that the rest of Genesis starts to make sense. And I think what was probably behind the interpretation and translation of the targum was trying to explain the plurality of God elsewhere in the Old Testament, particularly in the book of Genesis. And here’s what I mean, just listen. Genesis 1:26: “Then God said” – we’ll deal with this in a few weeks as well – “‘Let’” – who? – “‘us.’” “Then God said, ‘Let’” – Genesis 1:26. “Then God said, ‘Let us make man or mankind in our image, in our likeness.’” That makes no sense apart from the doctrine of the Trinity. Who’s the “us” and the “our”? God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
I’ll give you another one. Genesis 3, after sin enters the world. Genesis 3:22: “Then the Lord God said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of us.’” Trinitarian language. I’ll give you the last one. There are many more, but for the wake of time I’ll give you one more. Genesis 11:7, at the Tower of Babel, God says this: “Come, let us go down.” The Old Testament echoes from Genesis 1 onward with Trinitarian language. At the very least in Genesis 1:1-2 – at the very beginning we have God the Father and God the Spirit. And we have Jewish tradition which says, “We see Jesus there as well – the firstborn, God the Son.”


There are two other places I’ll show you the doctrine of the Trinity in the Old Testament. We could do hundreds, but for the sake of time, I’ll give you two of my favorites. This one is one of my favorites. Isaiah 48:6, written hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus, foreshadowing, foretelling the coming of Jesus Christ, eternal God, God the Son coming into history as a man. “And now the Lord God” – that’s the Father – “has sent me” – that’s Jesus – “and his Spirit.” That the Father would send the Son with the Spirit – you know what? This is exactly what Jesus says. He says more than 20 times in John’s gospel alone, “The Father has sent me.” And then Jesus says in John’s gospel elsewhere, “When I leave I will send you” – the Holy Spirit. And it’s all in fulfillment of Isaiah 48:6.
I’ll give you another one, Isaiah 61:1. And this is God, here, speaking. “The Spirit” – there’s the Holy Spirit – “of the Lord God” – the Lord God is the Father – “is upon me” – Jesus – “because the Lord has anointed me” – that’s Jesus – “to bring good news to the poor.” Hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus. Now if you remember the story in Luke 4, Jesus goes to the temple. He opens up the scrolls. He reads what? What does he read? Luke 4 – right after his temptation by Satan, at the inauguration of his public ministry, he opens up to Isaiah 61, and Jesus says this: “This Spirit of the Lord is on me to preach good news” – he quotes the rest of the section. He then closes the scroll and Jesus says this amazing statement. “Today this is fulfilled in me.” Jesus knew. Jesus knew that he was, as the second member of the Trinity, fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah 61.

 

[CanadaNZ]

Let me take you back more than a millennium and answer this question. What is the history of the doctrine of the Trinity? Well, early church fathers like Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Basil, and Athanasius – they all taught the doctrine of the Trinity and defended it. Tertullian, as I said, he is one of the first to use the language of the Trinity to describe all that the Bible says about one God, three persons, Father, Son, and Spirit eternally equal in every way.

The doctrine of the Trinity, I believe it was held to, but it was questioned by some. And there were heretics and false teachers. And so there needed to be clarification. Some say, “Well, it seems like it took a long time for the doctrine to develop,” and my answer would be, “When the whole church is suffering persecution, people are being fed to lions, they’ve been run through with swords, they’re being burned alive, they’re being burned at the stake, they’re being crucified one after another, the pastors are being beheaded, people are running for their lives – it’s really hard to crank out a lot of systematic theology under those cultural conditions.” When you’re being persecuted and doing funerals all the time, you’re just – you’re trying to live and then you’re teaching your people. But they’re dying, too, and the whole church was suffering.
Once persecution died down, then immediately they started clarifying some of their doctrinal beliefs, including at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, where the Bible teachers got together and clearly articulated belief in one God, three Persons – the Trinity. And that has held ever since. Additionally then, too, there was another council, the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD where, again, the Bible teachers get together and they lay down the doctrine of the Trinity.
Things really were anchored, then, with a man named Augustine who was one of the leading thinkers, not just in the history of Christianity, but the western world, Augustine of Hippo. And from 400 to 419 – he spent 19 years studying the doctrine of the Trinity. So if you just walked in off the straight and you’re like, “This is complicated.” Yeah, it is. 19 years for Augustine of Hippo to research, study so that he could publish his book The Treaties on the Trinity, and it was sort of the definitive work. And it has now held up for more than 1,500 years, the result being that today all Christians believe in the Trinity. Roman Catholics believe in the Trinity. Eastern Orthodox believe in the Trinity. Protestants believe in the Trinity. Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans all believe in the Trinity. All Christians believe in the Trinity.
Some people say, “Christians can’t agree. We agree on this. We all agree that there is one God in three Persons, Father, Son, and Spirit. There is no disagreement on that issue. It is among the distinguishing beliefs of what it means to be Christian.
That begs the questions, “Well, not everybody believes that so what are the major heresies that have contradicted the doctrine of the Trinity?” Well, there are basically three ways to contradict the doctrine of the Trinity. The first is we said that there is one God. Some would say there is not one God. That’s called polytheism, where there’s multiple gods, or tritheism, where there are three gods.
This would include Mormonism, which says that there are multiple gods and that Jesus was a man who became God, not God who became a man. It’s a complete inversion and it’s the following of the first line, the garden of Genesis, where Satan said to our first parents, “You could become God.” Mormonism says that there are multiple gods and that men and women like Jesus have the opportunity to become God. And Jesus is not a man who became God, he’s God who became a man. That’s totally different. And Mormonism, as one example, is polytheistic: believes in multiple gods.
Number two. The other way you can error is to deny that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are not three distinct persons. This is called Modalism, otherwise known as, in some circles, Sabellianism or Monarchianism or Oneness or Jesus Only. And that is not that the Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct persons, but that God sort of puts on a mask and plays a role. So in the Old Testament he acts like the Father, in the days of Jesus he acts like the Son, and then from Acts onward he acts like the Holy Spirit, and that he’s always playing one role at a time. Well, the problem with this is texts like Matthew 3, at the baptism of Jesus. The Father speaks, the Son comes out of the water, the Spirit descends – he’s not play – you can’t play three roles at the same time. There are three Persons, not three roles being played.
The primary proponents of this heretical teaching today is the United Pentecostal Church. It’s a whole denomination that claims to be Christian, but denies the Trinity. They’ll go by the name Jesus Only, that sometimes Jesus pretends he’s the Father. Sometimes Jesus pretends he’s the Spirit, but it’s always Jesus. There is no Father, Son, and Spirit.
Third way to error is to deny that the Father, Son, and Spirit are equally God. Early on there was a heresy in the church called Aryanism which said the Father is God but Jesus isn’t. He’s a created being. He’s not eternally God. Today that is believed by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and they don’t believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, either.

 

[Joe90]

So Jesus the Son is his own Father and the Father is his own Son?

If Jesus is God how come he died?

Who was running the show while he was away, and who raised him up?

I don't believe in the trinity. And I don't believe in Oneness either, cause Jesus can't be his own father.

 

[CanadaNZ]

So Jesus the Son is his own Father and the Father is his own Son?

If Jesus is God how come he died?

Who was running the show while he was away, and who raised him up?

I don't believe in the trinity. And I don't believe in Oneness either, cause Jesus can't be his own father.

I hate to say that the bible is very clear on the reality of this, the issue for most seems to be the understanding of how this works logistically. The sin of pride is strong in humanity, we think that if we can't make sense of it than it can't be true. I mean you can't even be a christian without being willing to take God's Love on faith, because the fact that God would send the Son to die for His enemies salvation does not make sense in human terms, but it is still true.

 

[Joe90]

The questions are quite reasonable.

You have not answered them and have resorted to character assassination.

Are you actually here to have a discussion or to ponitificate?

 

[CanadaNZ]

The questions are quite reasonable.

You have not answered them and have resorted to character assassination.

Are you actually here to have a discussion or to ponitificate?

I am not character assassinating, I am pointing out that you can't reject what the bible teaches just because it doesn't seems to make sense to you. Otherwise you are allowing your pride to get in the way of trusting that God's Word is true.


1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at[a] His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

 

[mori]

...we think that if we can't make sense of it than it can't be true.

There are two ways, I think, we can fail to make sense of something. First, we might not be able to make sense of the motives behind an action. For instance:

I mean you can't even be a christian without being willing to take God's Love on faith, because the fact that God would send the Son to die for His enemies salvation does not make sense in human terms, but it is still true.

If something is true, regardless of the motives behind it, it is true. Agreed. "I wouldn't do that" doesn't mean "nobody would ever do that." I don't think that's the sort of "nonsense" that we're talking about here, though.

There is another way in which something might not make sense, not because we can't sympathize, but because it seems internally contradictory in terms of facts. Most of these sorts of questions arise not because a motive doesn't "make sense," but because there are active problems with the idea.

In questions of the Trinity, there's not really a question of sympathizing with motives. God is either the Trinity or God is not the Trinity. There aren't any questions of not being able to understand the why.

 

[prophecyman]

Quote: There’s one God. The Father is God. The Son is God. And so is the Holy Spirit, okay?


Wrong! Scripture clearly teaches that the Son was begotten of the Father, and that the Father was in the Son. For all the fulness of the GODHEAD dwelt in him.

If the heavens of heavens could not contain him, then we understand that the Father is the Holy Spirit, for God is Spirit, and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

The Holy Spirit is not another person, nor an aspect of God, nor yet a manifestation of God, but is the Father! The Angel Gabriel declared that the power of the highest shall over shadow Mary, and that Holy One (KJV says thing) which is in you, is of the HOLY SPIRIT.

Many here on CC would make reference of the Holy Spirit decending like a dove, and that the voice of the Father spoke from heaven, but if you take another look at the text where this scripture is mentioned, then you will realize that this manifestation or appearance of the Spirit was meant as a sign that was given to John the Baptist. John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. In other words it was a method to establish a positive ID.

It is apparent that the Father is omnipresent everywhere, but his fulness dwelt in the Messiah (ha' Machiach). The Son in Colosians 1:15 is the express image of the invisible God; the invisible God is Spirit!

The omni-present God is invisible and is everywhere, and as he led the Children of Israel through the desert for 40 years, it was he who said that his HOLY SPIRIT was greived and that they will not enter into his rest. In essence the Father described himself as the Holy Spirit.

Jesus made it plain when he said: Don't you know that the Father dwells (LIVES) in me and I in the Father? He that see's me, see's the Father, how do you then say show us the Father?

 

[cronjecj]

this is how i see it,

word = God's word

Holy Spirit = God's Spirit

Father = God's mind

the same became flesh, Jesus Christ.

nowhere in scripture does it say trinity.

 

[CanadaNZ]

Quote: There’s one God. The Father is God. The Son is God. And so is the Holy Spirit, okay?


Wrong! Scripture clearly teaches that the Son was begotten of the Father, and that the Father was in the Son. For all the fulness of the GODHEAD dwelt in him.

If the heavens of heavens could not contain him, then we understand that the Father is the Holy Spirit, for God is Spirit, and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

The Holy Spirit is not another person, nor an aspect of God, nor yet a manifestation of God, but is the Father! The Angel Gabriel declared that the power of the highest shall over shadow Mary, and that Holy One (KJV says thing) which is in you, is of the HOLY SPIRIT.

Many here on CC would make reference of the Holy Spirit decending like a dove, and that the voice of the Father spoke from heaven, but if you take another look at the text where this scripture is mentioned, then you will realize that this manifestation or appearance of the Spirit was meant as a sign that was given to John the Baptist. John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. In other words it was a method to establish a positive ID.

It is apparent that the Father is omnipresent everywhere, but his fulness dwelt in the Messiah (ha' Machiach). The Son in Colosians 1:15 is the express image of the invisible God; the invisible God is Spirit!

The omni-present God is invisible and is everywhere, and as he led the Children of Israel through the desert for 40 years, it was he who said that his HOLY SPIRIT was greived and that they will not enter into his rest. In essence the Father described himself as the Holy Spirit.

Jesus made it plain when he said: Don't you know that the Father dwells (LIVES) in me and I in the Father? He that see's me, see's the Father, how do you then say show us the Father?

Ok so from your first statement "Wrong! Scripture clearly teaches that the Son was begotten of the Father, and that the Father was in the Son. For all the fulness of the GODHEAD dwelt in him." That sounds even more convoluted. . .

John 1:33 says "I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’"
Luke 3:21-22 says "When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened. And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

So at the moment of Jesus' baptism you have the Son in bodily form (John 1:14, Philippians 2:5-8) and the Holy Spirit in bodily form and the Father speaking from heaven. Then you have in John, Jesus saying "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father." and "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." There are many clear indications of separation, that Jesus is indeed God as the Father and the Holy Spirit are God. If the wealth of evidence in scripture is piled word for word, without need for interpretation, in favour of a Trinitarian God don't reject the truth just because you don't understand the how or because of your preconceived notions of God.

Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God."

There is an obvious separation here, the Holy Spirit will come AND the power of the Highest(Most High) will overshadow. Also not the title given here to Jesus, Holy One, a title only give to God. By your assertion that Jesus wasn't God, this would mean that the Father would be the "is to be born", which according to you can't be true because you claim Jesus isn't God.

Isaiah 48:17
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:

“ I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Here is a question for you:
Taking your assertion what do you make of the following passages? God with multiple personality disorder?

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth. --> Elohim is a plural word
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Genesis 3
22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

Genesis 11
6-7 And the LORD said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”

 

[CanadaNZ]

this is how i see it,

word = God's word

Holy Spirit = God's Spirit

Father = God's mind

the same became flesh, Jesus Christ.

nowhere in scripture does it say trinity.

Yes the word trinity is not in the Bible but it is a word that is used to describe what IS in the Bible. One of the most intelligent men of his time Augustine spent 19 years studying the concept and said "if you deny the trinity you lose your soul, if you try to explain it lose your mind."

The problem I have with that explanation is how does a spoken word become flesh?

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

What a waste of time to read more default indoctrinated dogma-by-inference that God is siamese conjoined triplets.

I want my clicks back.

 

[prophecyman]

Ok so from your first statement "Wrong! Scripture clearly teaches that the Son was begotten of the Father, and that the Father was in the Son. For all the fulness of the GODHEAD dwelt in him." That sounds even more convoluted. . .

John 1:33 says "I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’"
Luke 3:21-22 says "When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened. And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

So at the moment of Jesus' baptism you have the Son in bodily form (John 1:14, Philippians 2:5-8) and the Holy Spirit in bodily form and the Father speaking from heaven. Then you have in John, Jesus saying "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father." and "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." There are many clear indications of separation, that Jesus is indeed God as the Father and the Holy Spirit are God. If the wealth of evidence in scripture is piled word for word, without need for interpretation, in favour of a Trinitarian God don't reject the truth just because you don't understand the how or because of your preconceived notions of God.

Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God."

There is an obvious separation here, the Holy Spirit will come AND the power of the Highest(Most High) will overshadow. Also not the title given here to Jesus, Holy One, a title only give to God. By your assertion that Jesus wasn't God, this would mean that the Father would be the "is to be born", which according to you can't be true because you claim Jesus isn't God.

Isaiah 48:17
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:

“ I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Here is a question for you:
Taking your assertion what do you make of the following passages? God with multiple personality disorder?

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth. --> Elohim is a plural word
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Genesis 3
22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

Genesis 11
6-7 And the LORD said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”

I believe in One God who dwelt in One Lord Jesus, for Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God, equal in the sense that the Son of God was the express image of his person, the revelation of the word of God made flesh. For that bread that came down from heaven is the Holy Spirit of whom is all things, and all life proceeds from the light that lighteth every man that enters the world.

His name is the word of God, and Yeshua ha' mashiach is God that saves, the annointed one, the Holy One of God.

If you really believe that Jesus is God, then why don't you get baptized in his name? Acts 2:38, will not the bride take on the name of her husband? You don't even understand the power in his name, for his name is ONE, and the Lord is One, and his name means salvation.

Jesus is God Almighty manifested in the flesh and came to tabernacle among men, and when he ascended on high, he gave gifts to men and baptized them in his Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of Christ in you the hope of glory. I worship only one God who is the everlasting Father according to Isa. 9:6

 

[CanadaNZ]

I believe in One God who dwelt in One Lord Jesus, for Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God, equal in the sense that the Son of God was the express image of his person, the revelation of the word of God made flesh. For that bread that came down from heaven is the Holy Spirit of whom is all things, and all life proceeds from the light that lighteth every man that enters the world.

His name is the word of God, and Yeshua ha' mashiach is God that saves, the annointed one, the Holy One of God.

If you really believe that Jesus is God, then why don't you get baptized in his name? Acts 2:38, will not the bride take on the name of her husband? You don't even understand the power in his name, for his name is ONE, and the Lord is One, and his name means salvation.

Jesus is God Almighty manifested in the flesh and came to tabernacle among men, and when he ascended on high, he gave gifts to men and baptized them in his Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of Christ in you the hope of glory. I worship only one God who is the everlasting Father according to Isa. 9:6

We are baptized in his name. . ."All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"(Matthew 28:18-19). "AND OF" showing a distinction of the persons.

 

[Joe90]

In the name of Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit'

They're not names, they're titles of the offices of Almighty God.

The name is Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Joe90]

Quote:

'The problem I have with that explanation is how does a spoken word become flesh?'

God the Father had a Son.

There's no Mrs God, so any begotten Son MUST be the express image of the Father.

But the Son is not his own Father - John 5:26 - the Father has life in himself and gave to the Son to have life in his self.

Two lives, one God the Father, the other, the Son of God.

Not God the Son.

Otherwise you have at least two Gods.

 

[prophecyman]

We are baptized in his name. . ."All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"(Matthew 28:18-19). "AND OF" showing a distinction of the persons.

Father is not a name, Son is not a name, Holy Spirit is not a name! Was Peter mistaken when he told 3 thousand Jews to be baptized everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins? Acts 2:38, or was he mistaken when he told the household of Cornelius Acts ch. 10:43-48), no he commanded that they be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Was Philip (Acts ch. 8) mistaken when he baptized the Samaritans in Jesus name? Was Paul mistaken when he told the converts of John the Baptist to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Acts 19:1-6

Was Acts chapter 4:12 a misinterpetation of Matthew 28:19? Come on man, get the revelation of his name, Jesus said he came in his Fathers name.

 

[barukhmalachi]

We are are made in the image of god. Even non believers belive we are mind body and spirit. We are a three part being just like god. Body soul and spirit. Three parts yet one person. As far as word made flesh. What is flesh. It can be felt it can be seen it can be broken. If you say mean words to someone can you see how it affects them can you feel their attitude change do you day you broke there heart. Words have tangible affects. In the sence of gods words being made flesh, jesus is god in the flesh. He lived, spoke, acted the words of god to a t. He showed us the perfect example of what god says in his word. Jesus prayed father who art in heaven as an example of how we should pray. He turned his word into a tangible physical body we can see touch and hear. Its like looking all over the house for a pair of glasses that you are wearing. We look for some mystical revelation when sometimes the answer is simple.

 

[mori]

We are are made in the image of god. Even non believers belive we are mind body and spirit. We are a three part being just like god. Body soul and spirit. Three parts yet one person.

The difficulty with this sort of explanation is, I think, that God is supposed to be perfectly capable and sufficient in each of his parts. Remove the mind from a person, leaving him with body and spirit, and you've got someone in a vegetative state. God doesn't appear to work this way.

We look for some mystical revelation when sometimes the answer is simple.

Mainstream Christian theologians have, over the years, called most "simple" explanations heresy. The examples we used to hear in Sunday School would have gotten people thrown out of their churches if they taught them not too long ago. What you're describing here, for instance, is probably best understood as Modalism; i.e. God, when manifested physically, is what we saw in Jesus, etc. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that it's most commonly understood as a heresy if you care to submit yourself to the judgments of Christian history.

When all the "simple" explanations have been explicitly exhausted, people have to resort to mysticism. Theologians have painted into a very tight corner any believer who wants to participate in this discussion. Alternatively, you can say fie on all that nonsense, but at that point you've cut yourself off from the judgments of Christian history; it's an odd place to be.