Church built on the Rock

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L

Laodicea

Guest
#1
#1
Christ is the rock in Matthew 16:18 upon which His church is built.
Matthew 16:18
(18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
1 Corinthians 3:10-11
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Christ's Foundation
Matthew 5:17
(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
John 8:46
(46) Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
John 14:30
(30) Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Revelation 14:12
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
 
2knowhim

2knowhim

Banned
#2
Oct 12, 2011
1,123
3
0
#2
what was this Rock He was referring to?
 
S

shroom2

Banned
#4
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
0
#4
dscherck said:
Peter.

"You are Peter (Rock) and on this Rock I will build my Church"
Click to expand...
"You are Peter (petros, a pebble), and on this Rock (petra, a ROCK, referring to himself) I will build my church".
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#5
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#5
shroom2 said:
"You are Peter (petros, a pebble), and on this Rock (petra, a ROCK, referring to himself) I will build my church".
Click to expand...
Might make sense if Our Lord was speaking the ancient Attic Greek dialect at the time instead of the Koine Greek. But the simple fact is, He was speaking neither dialects but rather, Aramaic.

"You are Kepha (Rock) and on this Kepha I will build my Church."

You really have to twist the Scriptures to interpret it any other way really.
 
2knowhim

2knowhim

Banned
#6
Oct 12, 2011
1,123
3
0
#6
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Notice this is the initial guestion.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

This was a revealing or (unvieling) from Heaven, unto Peter from the Father.
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I believe :
The Rock was not Peter, but the Revelation he received from heaven, that the gates of hell shall not prevail against.
The Truth which is a Rock that can not be move, or changed in any way.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#7
#7
dscherck said:
Might make sense if Our Lord was speaking the ancient Attic Greek dialect at the time instead of the Koine Greek. But the simple fact is, He was speaking neither dialects but rather, Aramaic.

"You are Kepha (Rock) and on this Kepha I will build my Church."

You really have to twist the Scriptures to interpret it any other way really.
Click to expand...
unfortunately we don't have any aramaic gospels...so there is no way of knowing how jesus actually worded his statement if he was speaking aramaic there...
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#8
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#8
RachelBibleStudent said:
unfortunately we don't have any aramaic gospels...so there is no way of knowing how jesus actually worded his statement if he was speaking aramaic there...
Click to expand...
But we do have the records of the early Christians, and we can see from the writings of Paul referring to Peter as "Cephas" which was an alternate spelling of "Kephas"
 
P

peterT

Guest
#9
#9
Laodicea said:
Christ is the rock in Matthew 16:18 upon which His church is built.
Matthew 16:18
(18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
1 Corinthians 3:10-11
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Christ's Foundation
Matthew 5:17
(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
John 8:46
(46) Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
John 14:30
(30) Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Revelation 14:12
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Click to expand...
That’s very good thanks Laodicea.

Also that reminds me of

Matt7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

We must build Christ's Foundation in our own life’s build upon that rock, put the word in our hearts, so when the floods and wind comes we will stand and not be blown over
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#10
#10
RachelBibleStudent said:
unfortunately we don't have any aramaic gospels...so there is no way of knowing how jesus actually worded his statement if he was speaking aramaic there...
Click to expand...
Even in Koine Greek they mean the same thing, when Petra (feminine) is used in reference to Peter it becomes Petros (masculine) because it names a man. Petros in Attic (or Classical) Greek does mean "pebble", but Koine Greek does not make that distinction, In Koine Greek both petra and petros simply mean rock. Protestant apologists usually bring up that petros means "pebble" because it seemingly disproves the Catholic view, but it simply doesn't mean that in Koine Greek.

Latin does the same thing since they took the word for rock from Greek, translating it as Petrus (masculine) to refer to Peter, and petram (to agree grammatically with the sentence) for rock.
 
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S

SantoSubito

Guest
#11
#11
Also I forgot to point out that in Koine Greek the word for a pebble or small stone was lithos. If Jesus (or Matthew translating Jesus' words) meant to say "pebble" he would have used lithos.
 
Shilo

Shilo

Senior Member
#12
Aug 31, 2011
1,985
105
63
#12
2knowhim said:
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Notice this is the initial guestion.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealeditunto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

This was a revealing or (unvieling) from Heaven, unto Peter from the Father.
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.

Mat 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I believe :
The Rock was not Peter, but the Revelation he received from heaven, that the gates of hell shall not prevail against.
The Truth which is a Rock that can not be move, or changed in any way.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is the way I see it too.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#13
#13
peterT said:
That’s very good thanks Laodicea.

Also that reminds me of

Matt7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

We must build Christ's Foundation in our own life’s build upon that rock, put the word in our hearts, so when the floods and wind comes we will stand and not be blown over
Click to expand...
Yes that is good
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#14
#14
2knowhim said:
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Notice this is the initial guestion.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealeditunto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

This was a revealing or (unvieling) from Heaven, unto Peter from the Father.
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.

Mat 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I believe :
The Rock was not Peter, but the Revelation he received from heaven, that the gates of hell shall not prevail against.
The Truth which is a Rock that can not be move, or changed in any way.
Click to expand...
That is a Good Post
 
M

midwestbob

Guest
#15
#15
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with
the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ
himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our
fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Is Christ the cornerstone or is Peter the cornerstone?
Who is the Rock that we all drink from? Christ or Peter?
 
G

Graybeard

Guest
#16
#16
Jesus is the rock!!......sheesh!!
 
P

peterT

Guest
#17
#17
2knowhim said:
what was this Rock He was referring to?
Click to expand...
The spirit of faith and obedience was in peter and Jesus said upon this rock I will build my church.

That’s what I think He was saying
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#18
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#18
Graybeard said:
Jesus is the rock!!......sheesh!!
Click to expand...
Right... because when Jesus tells Peter "You are Rock" He's really lying to Peter and referring to Himself.

Makes perfect sense!
 
Cheekygrin

Cheekygrin

Senior Member
#19
Jan 25, 2011
125
11
18
43
#19
Context context context. What is Christianity about? CHRIST!!! Otherwise it would be called Peterianity. And that would just be silly.

Jesus was specifically asking Peter about who He (Jesus) was. Peter via divine revelation said Jesus is the Christ. To this statement Jesus replied. He said upon this rock (The divine and unshakable truth that Jesus is the Messiah) will I build my Church. The central message and focus of the Church is that Jesus is the Christ, our savior. If you believe Jesus was referring to the man Peter as that Divine foundation of Christs Church, then you'd probably end up following some old dude is a dress and a funny hat! Haha, as if THAT would happen.... oh wait.

That Jesus is the Christ is the foundation of my saving faith. When I gather with others in the name of Him and because of this shared faith, we call it church. :)
P.S. I'm sure Peter was a nice fellow however and I have nothing against him worth mentioning here.
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#20
#20
Cheekygrin said:
Jesus was specifically asking Peter about who He (Jesus) was. Peter via divine revelation said Jesus is the Christ. To this statement Jesus replied. He said upon this rock (The divine and unshakable truth that Jesus is the Messiah) will I build my Church. The central message and focus of the Church is that Jesus is the Christ, our savior. If you believe Jesus was referring to the man Peter as that Divine foundation of Christs Church, then you'd probably end up following some old dude is a dress and a funny hat! Haha, as if THAT would happen.... oh wait.
Click to expand...
That would make sense if the passage went like this:

17And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
And I say to thee: upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 17-18 modified).

But the fact remains that the passage does not go like that instead it goes:

17And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18And I say to thee: That thou art Peter (rock); and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 17-18)

The fact that Christ renames Simon rock and then says upon this rock I will build my Church means the only interpretation you can have of this passage without going through grammatical gymnastics is that Christ built the Church on Peter. If Christ meant what you said why even rename Simon, or mention him at all in verse 18?
 
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