DEPRAVITY OF MAN

[AnandaHya]

Death is death. It is the end until one of the upcoming resurrections. The people who will die "in the Lord" in revelation will indeed die. They will be raised at the resurrection of the just. Death is an enemy. People who believe it's an immediate"doorway to Jesus" are deceived.

Jesus is the immediate gateway to God.

people seem more concerned with defeated enemies then with God and His commandments.

2 Corinthians 2:16
To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things?

2 Corinthians 1:9-11
New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead, 10 who delivered us from so great a death, and does[a] deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us, 11 you also helping together in prayer for us, that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the gift granted to us through many.

2 Timothy 1:9-11
New King James Version (NKJV)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.[a]

why is there not more talk about the Gospel of LIFE? we HAD the sentence of death in ourselves but God is able to raise the dead

can you say honestly what lies beyond the grave? what happens when one dies?

 

[Zilla64007]

Spiritual death is not the same as physical death... Paul himself says that he was alive before the law came. Romans 2:14-16 says that Gentiles NATURALLY do the law... If we are born as sinners, then. Why does Paul say otherwise, and why does the Bible say that God MADE man upright, but man sought out other inventions?... If man were born sinful, Ecclesiastes would not say God made man upright. It would say something else

 

[Forest]

Spiritual death is not the same as physical death... Paul himself says that he was alive before the law came. Romans 2:14-16 says that Gentiles NATURALLY do the law... If we are born as sinners, then. Why does Paul say otherwise, and why does the Bible say that God MADE man upright, but man sought out other inventions?... If man were born sinful, Ecclesiastes would not say God made man upright. It would say something else

When we are born a natural birth we are but natural beings. 1 Cor 2:14 tells us the limitations of the natural man. We remain a natural man until God quickens us to a spiritual life Eph 1-5.

 

[Forest]

When will it be realized, Forest? At the return of Christ, when the dead in Christ will rise. Until that happens, they remain dead.

It being brought to light through the gospel is here in this world as the truth is revealed to his elect, not after our fiscil death.

 

[Forest]

Forest, I have no clue how you could arrive at such a ridiculous conclusion. Of course we need the gospel now.


That is correct. We hear the gospel, choose to believe it, and we become saved (and in case you're confused, it is eternal salvation). But if we die before Christ returns, we will be dead until that moment. The "dead in Christ" in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 refers to Christians who have died. They are still at this moment dead, and will be raised at the return. That is when death (for Christians) will be abolished.

Not so, Shroom, Christ abolished death by his reserection.

 

[Forest]

The question I have to those who are privy to the topic of depravity is whether or not depravity is a personal attribute or is it the ousia (essence) of man? In other words, is sin intrinsic to humanity?

Depravity is the sinfulness of man.

 

[Zilla64007]

When we are born a natural birth we are but natural beings. 1 Cor 2:14 tells us the limitations of the natural man. We remain a natural man until God quickens us to a spiritual life Eph 1-5.

doesn't change the fact that Paul was alive before the law, and Gentiles naturally do the law... brings your doctrine of genetic sin to an abysmal downfall.

 

[Kimber321]

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[serpentslayer]

We will never be able to understand God's grace unless we first understand man's depravity.

Then once you realize Adam is the devil and all mankind his children, you must realize just how gracious He is for trying to save a bunch of devils!

 

[Forest]

doesn't change the fact that Paul was alive before the law, and Gentiles naturally do the law... brings your doctrine of genetic sin to an abysmal downfall.

Paul was already born of the Spirit before he was converted on the road to Damaskas. The Gentiles who were doing the law naturally were already born of the Spirit. The natural man will not serve a spiritual God because they cannot descern spiritual things, they are foolishness unto him 1Cor 2:14.

 

[Zilla64007]

that's not what Romans 2:14-16 and Romans 7:9-11 say.

thats what the Calvinist says... the BIBLE says otherwise

 

[tribesman]

Paul was already born of the Spirit before he was converted on the road to Damaskas....

I actually agree with much of what you're saying, such as the gentiles spoken of in Romans 2.14-15 being born again believers, but this one about Paul: do you have a scripture for this claim?

 

[Crossfire]

While I completely agree that mankind is depraved before salvation, I do not believe in "total" or "complete" depravity. I have actually heard some Calvinists teach that the depravity of man is an irreversable state thus suggesting that we are somehow save to sin / saved in sin rather than saved from sin as scripture declares. It's as if they believe the depravity of man to be somehow stronger than the Holy Spirit's ability to sanctify / deliver the believer.

 

[Red33]

Death is death. It is the end until one of the upcoming resurrections. The people who will die "in the Lord" in revelation will indeed die. They will be raised at the resurrection of the just. Death is an enemy. People who believe it's an immediate"doorway to Jesus" are deceived.

For the church and body of Christ, when a believer dies they are absent from the body and present with the Lord (2Cor 5:8). They now are waiting for the redemption of their body (Rom 8:23) that will happen when the dead (bodily) in Christ shall rise and meet the Lord in the air (1Thes 4:16,17). The death of the believing saint is precious in God's sight (Ps 116:15). The believer will be reunited with his body and will put on immortality and incorruption through a new glorified body (1Cor 15:52-55)...

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 

[Forest]

I actually agree with much of what you're saying, such as the gentiles spoken of in Romans 2.14-15 being born again believers, but this one about Paul: do you have a scripture for this claim?

Acts 22:3 and Acts 23:1. These descriptions of Paul do not match the description of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Forest]

While I completely agree that mankind is depraved before salvation, I do not believe in "total" or "complete" depravity. I have actually heard some Calvinists teach that the depravity of man is an irreversable state thus suggesting that we are somehow save to sin / saved in sin rather than saved from sin as scripture declares. It's as if they believe the depravity of man to be somehow stronger than the Holy Spirit's ability to sanctify / deliver the believer.

Jesus came to earth to deliver God's elect not all mankind John 6:37-41.

 

[tribesman]

Acts 22:3 and Acts 23:1. These descriptions of Paul do not match the description of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14.

Let's look at these scriptures.

Acts.22

[3] I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

This is pre-conversion Paul. Remember also Paul said that there be people that are zealous for God who had not yet submitted to the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, being ignorant thereof and going about to establish their own righteousness. His prayer for them was that they be saved.

Rom.10

[1] Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
[2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
[3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
[4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Acts.23

[1] And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.

This one is more unclear. He did not say from and since whence he had lived in all good conscience. I think he did not live in "all good conscience" when he persecuted the church (and thereby Christ) unto death.

Acts 22 again:

Acts.22

[4] And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

While Paul was clear about his election and predestination (Gal.1:15), he did not suggest any idea of eternal justification.

 

[Crossfire]

Jesus came to earth to deliver God's elect not all mankind John 6:37-41.

Hmmm... I fail to see how your response addresses anything that I had said in my previous post. However, I do not believe in Limited Atonement. Just as sin entered into the world through one man (Adam), the means to overcome sin also came through one man (Christ). To say that Christ died only for a select few is to minimize the importance of what Christ did on the cross. Christ gave his life so that all mankind could be reconciled however, that does not mean that all mankind will be reconciled.

 

[tribesman]

Hmmm... I fail to see how your response addresses anything that I had said in my previous post. However, I do not believe in Limited Atonement. Just as sin entered into the world through one man (Adam), the means to overcome sin also came through one man (Christ). To say that Christ died only for a select few is to minimize the importance of what Christ did on the cross. Christ gave his life so that all mankind could be reconciled however, that does not mean that all mankind will be reconciled.

This notion about Adam appears to make sense for the universal atonement view (not to be confused with universalism, i.e. all will eventually be saved), however one must also mind that while Adam's transgression really transferred to all his descendants (all of mankind) as their representative, this must not by necessity automatically be equated with Christ in all things representing the same group. Since all men are born (natural) in Adam, not all men are born (again) in Christ. It is thus a matter of position.

There are a lot of scriptures that support the view of Christ being the covenant or federal head of His people only, guaranteeing and securing their atonement, redemption, justification, sanctification and glorification. Again, there's a difference as to how God deals with His covenant people than those who are outside this covenant. This is easily seen when it is referred to the seed of Abraham in this context. Then we are back again to the same old issue what the condition is that makes one a child of God, and if this condition is met in Christ alone or if it in some way, or to some degree, is met in the sinner. I hold to the former.

 

[Abiding]

This notion about Adam appears to make sense for the universal atonement view (not to be confused with universalism, i.e. all will eventually be saved), however one must also mind that while Adam's transgression really transferred to all his descendants (all of mankind) as their representative, this must not by necessity automatically be equated with Christ in all things representing the same group. Since all men are born (natural) in Adam, not all men are born (again) in Christ. It is thus a matter of position.

There are a lot of scriptures that support the view of Christ being the covenant or federal head of His people only, guaranteeing and securing their atonement, redemption, justification, sanctification and glorification. Again, there's a difference as to how God deals with His covenant people than those who are outside this covenant. This is easily seen when it is referred to the seed of Abraham in this context. Then we are back again to the same old issue what the condition is that makes one a child of God, and if this condition is met in Christ alone or if it in some way, or to some degree, is met in the sinner. I hold to the former.

chapter 4:24 states the condition in its context