DEPRAVITY OF MAN

[tribesman]

chapter 4:24 states the condition in its context

Rom.4

[24] But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Is this something that you mean that the natural man can do?

 

[Forest]

Let's look at these scriptures.

This is pre-conversion Paul. Remember also Paul said that there be people that are zealous for God who had not yet submitted to the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, being ignorant thereof and going about to establish their own righteousness. His prayer for them was that they be saved.

This one is more unclear. He did not say from and since whence he had lived in all good conscience. I think he did not live in "all good conscience" when he persecuted the church (and thereby Christ) unto death.

Acts 22 again:
While Paul was clear about his election and predestination (Gal.1:15), he did not suggest any idea of eternal justification.

I firmly believe that man cannot understand the grace of God until he understands his own depravity. In Rom 10:3, this verse fits all of those who are believing in their works for eternal salvation, just as Shroom is doing. This does not seperate them from being one of the elect. The salvation refered to in Rom 10 is not eternal salvation, but being delivered (saved) from the sin of trusting in their own righteous works and not submitting themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

[Forest]

Let's look at these scriptures.

This is pre-conversion Paul. Remember also Paul said that there be people that are zealous for God who had not yet submitted to the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, being ignorant thereof and going about to establish their own righteousness. His prayer for them was that they be saved.

This one is more unclear. He did not say from and since whence he had lived in all good conscience. I think he did not live in "all good conscience" when he persecuted the church (and thereby Christ) unto death.

Acts 22 again:
While Paul was clear about his election and predestination (Gal.1:15), he did not suggest any idea of eternal justification.

Paul did suggest the idea of eternal justification by Christ's faith in Gal 2:16.

 

[Forest]

Hmmm... I fail to see how your response addresses anything that I had said in my previous post. However, I do not believe in Limited Atonement. Just as sin entered into the world through one man (Adam), the means to overcome sin also came through one man (Christ). To say that Christ died only for a select few is to minimize the importance of what Christ did on the cross. Christ gave his life so that all mankind could be reconciled however, that does not mean that all mankind will be reconciled.

If Christ did not reconcil all that he died for, which was for all that God gave him, then He failed to do his father's will according to John 6:37-41. He completed his Father's will by not loosing one of them.

 

[tribesman]

I firmly believe that man cannot understand the grace of God until he understands his own depravity.

Agreed.

In Rom 10:3, this verse fits all of those who are believing in their works for eternal salvation, just as Shroom is doing. This does not seperate them from being one of the elect.

If they are among the elect or not is for no man to speculate about. However, at that point, spoken of in Romans 10:1-5, it is highly doubtful (to say the least) if such souls are regenerated. As a regenerated person does have knowledge of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, and is not ignorant about it. Which is evident from the context. This, of course, applies to eternal salvation. Paul's prayer for them that are ignorant about this was that they come into this salvation.

The salvation refered to in Rom 10 is not eternal salvation, but being delivered (saved) from the sin of trusting in their own righteous works and not submitting themselves unto the righteousness of God.

I believe the case that these verses would only deal with temporary salvation is very weak. Obviously, saving knowledge will include not trusting any condition whatsoever in oneself for one's right standing with God, and this salvation is for time and eternity.

 

[Forest]

Agreed.



If they are among the elect or not is for no man to speculate about. However, at that point, spoken of in Romans 10:1-5, it is highly doubtful (to say the least) if such souls are regenerated. As a regenerated person does have knowledge of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, and is not ignorant about it. Which is evident from the context. This, of course, applies to eternal salvation. Paul's prayer for them that are ignorant about this was that they come into this salvation.



I believe the case that these verses would only deal with temporary salvation is very weak. Obviously, saving knowledge will include not trusting any condition whatsoever in oneself for one's right standing with God, and this salvation is for time and eternity.

I believe that there are a lot of people
on this forum that believe in the false doctrine of "eternal salvation by works of man", but they are of the elect. We shall know them by their fruits, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. These fruits do not fit the discription of the natural man. I believe also that there is a salvation received here in this world, that is not eternal, by coming unto an understanding of the knowledge of the truth. All of God's elect do not have a knowledge of the truth as evidenced by some on this forum.

 

[tribesman]

Paul did suggest the idea of eternal justification by Christ's faith in Gal 2:16.

No. It has nothing to do with our faith being a gift from God.

Eternal justification is an error of hyper-calvinism, on par with the time-lapse error of same. There are many scriptures which exposes this error, such as John 1:12, 3:18, 5:24, 10:5,27, 17:3, Rom.1:16-17, 6:17-18, 7:6, 8:5-6,14-16, 1Cor.1:30-31, 2:12-14, 4:3-6, 2Thes.2:13, 1John 4:2-3, 5:1,10, 2John v.9 etc.

Add to this the absurd consequences and implications of this error:

A. While someone was going about to establish a righteousness of his own and bringing forth dead works, evil deeds, and fruit unto death, he was yet pleasing to God.

B. Without faith it is possible to please God, and some who are in the flesh are able to please God.

C. When they were dead in trespasses and sins wherein in time past they walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also they all had their conversation in times past in the lusts of their flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; were yet not the children of wrath, but pleasing to God. (Eph. 2:1-3).

So when does justification happen? The Bible says:

Rom.3

[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
[29] Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
[30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Rom.5

[1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
[2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Gal.3

[8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Justification is by faith, not by fate. This means that faith is the instrument through which a person receives the imputed righteousness of Christ and is justified. This does not mean however that faith is a condition or a requirement or prerequisite to justification.

 

[tribesman]

I believe that there are a lot of people on this forum that believe in the false doctrine of "eternal salvation by works of man", but they are of the elect.

I believe you speculate here.

We shall know them by their fruits, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. These fruits do not fit the discription of the natural man. I believe also that there is a salvation received here in this world, that is not eternal, by coming unto an understanding of the knowledge of the truth.

Paul judged that those who are ignorant about the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are lost, even if they are zealous for God. No one will be saved in unbelief or ignorance.

All of God's elect do not have a knowledge of the truth as evidenced by some on this forum.

Those born of God do not have knowledge of all things pertaining to all truth of God, but they do have knowledge of the righteousnes of God, revealed in the gospel. If all of them treasure it much enough at this hour or not is another question.

 

[shroom2]

I firmly believe that man cannot understand the grace of God until he understands his own depravity. In Rom 10:3, this verse fits all of those who are believing in their works for eternal salvation, just as Shroom is doing. This does not seperate them from being one of the elect. The salvation refered to in Rom 10 is not eternal salvation, but being delivered (saved) from the sin of trusting in their own righteous works and not submitting themselves unto the righteousness of God.

I do not believe in works for eternal salvation. I believe that God made salvation available through Christ to any man who will choose to believe. That is not works. Rom 10:9 is "eternal salvation".

 

[resurrection33]

We will never be able to understand God's grace unless we first understand man's depravity.

Yes, we have to learn to behave ourselves.

 

[Zilla64007]

and i have never I'm a non-Calvinist, and I dont believe in a works based salvation.

i've always held that it's through faith alone in Christ alone

 

[resurrection33]

and i have never I'm a non-Calvinist, and I dont believe in a works based salvation.

i've always held that it's through faith alone in Christ alone

We do have the responsibility of behaving ourselves.

 

[Zilla64007]

according to the Calvinist, all responsibility lies in the hands of God, since God has predetermined absolutely, positively, and negatively everything

so for a Calvinist to say we are responsible is a contradiction to their own theology

 

[resurrection33]

Are you related to Zilla64006? Zilla64006 and I are good friends.

 

[Forest]

No. It has nothing to do with our faith being a gift from God.

Eternal justification is an error of hyper-calvinism, on par with the time-lapse error of same. There are many scriptures which exposes this error, such as John 1:12, 3:18, 5:24, 10:5,27, 17:3, Rom.1:16-17, 6:17-18, 7:6, 8:5-6,14-16, 1Cor.1:30-31, 2:12-14, 4:3-6, 2Thes.2:13, 1John 4:2-3, 5:1,10, 2John v.9 etc.

Add to this the absurd consequences and implications of this error:

A. While someone was going about to establish a righteousness of his own and bringing forth dead works, evil deeds, and fruit unto death, he was yet pleasing to God.

B. Without faith it is possible to please God, and some who are in the flesh are able to please God.

C. When they were dead in trespasses and sins wherein in time past they walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also they all had their conversation in times past in the lusts of their flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; were yet not the children of wrath, but pleasing to God. (Eph. 2:1-3).

So when does justification happen? The Bible says:

Justification is by faith, not by fate. This means that faith is the instrument through which a person receives the imputed righteousness of Christ and is justified. This does not mean however that faith is a condition or a requirement or prerequisite to justification.

God's elect are justified for eternal salvation by Christ's faith in accomplishing his Father's will on the cross. Justification for God's elect was accomplished on the cross by the faith of Christ and not man's faith. Gal 2:16. John 1:12, the only way that a man can receive Christ is to first be (verse 13) born of God by the new birth.John 3:18, The natural man will not believe in a spiritual God 1 Cor 2:14. John 5:24, same as the other verses you have quoted, the natural man will not and cannot believe in spiritual things. John 10:5-27, the natural man is not one of his sheep and will not believe or hear spiritual things. The elect are justified for eternal life by the work Christ did on the cross and those that are not God's are not justified and cannot be justified. There are many scriptures saying we are justified by faith, but the faith in question is not man's faith, but Christ's faith. I am assuming that you are trying to tell me that the natural man will believe in God before he is quickened by God to a spiritual life, is this what you are saying? Man's spiritual faith after he has been quickened by God can bring him many deliverances here in this world, but man's faith is not, and can not save him eternally.

 

[Forest]

I believe you speculate here.



Paul judged that those who are ignorant about the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are lost, even if they are zealous for God. No one will be saved in unbelief or ignorance.



Those born of God do not have knowledge of all things pertaining to all truth of God, but they do have knowledge of the righteousnes of God, revealed in the gospel. If all of them treasure it much enough at this hour or not is another question.

Can you give me a scripture that says "if a man does not have a knowledge of the truth that they are eternally lost"?

 

[shroom2]

God's elect are justified for eternal salvation by Christ's faith in accomplishing his Father's will on the cross. Justification for God's elect was accomplished on the cross by the faith of Christ and not man's faith. Gal 2:16. John 1:12, the only way that a man can receive Christ is to first be (verse 13) born of God by the new birth.John 3:18, The natural man will not believe in a spiritual God 1 Cor 2:14. John 5:24, same as the other verses you have quoted, the natural man will not and cannot believe in spiritual things. John 10:5-27, the natural man is not one of his sheep and will not believe or hear spiritual things. The elect are justified for eternal life by the work Christ did on the cross and those that are not God's are not justified and cannot be justified. There are many scriptures saying we are justified by faith, but the faith in question is not man's faith, but Christ's faith. I am assuming that you are trying to tell me that the natural man will believe in God before he is quickened by God to a spiritual life, is this what you are saying? Man's spiritual faith after he has been quickened by God can bring him many deliverances here in this world, but man's faith is not, and can not save him eternally.

You have it backwards, as usual, Forest. Believing comes first, then salvation.

 

[Forest]

I do not believe in works for eternal salvation. I believe that God made salvation available through Christ to any man who will choose to believe. That is not works. Rom 10:9 is "eternal salvation".

When man takes action upon believing and confessing that makes it a work of man. If man has to act upon grace, then it becomes salvation by works and not by grace. Grace is a "FREE" gift of God, and if man has to take any kind of action to get it, it is not "FREE". There are seven things that God hates, Prov 6:16-17, These six things doth the Lord hate, yea, seven are an abomination unto him; A proud look (pride), a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. I am sure that it grieves God that man takes credit by his good works to gain eternal salvation, instead of giving God credit by honouring and glorifing him.

 

[Forest]

and i have never I'm a non-Calvinist, and I dont believe in a works based salvation.

i've always held that it's through faith alone in Christ alone

Our spiritual faith is not the cause of our eternal salvation. We are justified by Christ's faith and not our own Gal 2:16.

 

[tribesman]

Can you give me a scripture that says "if a man does not have a knowledge of the truth that they are eternally lost"?

This is not the issue here. Again, who will be saved or not is another issue. What is mentioned in Rom.10:1-4 is that those who are ignorant about the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel (Rom.1:16-17) are not saved at that point. Even though they may have a zeal of God it is still fruitless as to regenerate them.

Paul's desire and prayer for such souls was that they might be saved. And, once again, saved souls do not have all knowledge about all the truth of God, however they do have knowledge about the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel. This is given them in regeneration.