The Fixed Earth

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#21
Happy Memorial Day!:)

Christians are bound to affirm all that the Church teaches as matters of faith and morals. We reject pure naturalism, and we believe that the universe was made out of nothing by the free will of God. The Church believes Genesis teaches us truth about the origin of the world because the Bible is God's infallible revelation. But if we affirm the Bible as God's inspired book, must we reject at all secular science as somehow ungodly? If we take Genesis chapters 1 and 2 seriously, are we required to believe that God made the world in six twenty-four hour days, even if scientific research tends to indicate otherwise?

Augustine, bishop of Hippo from 395 to his death in 430, wrote commentaries on the Genesis creation narratives five times in his life. Why did Augustine spend so much time on the Genesis creation narratives? Augustine encountered different philosophies of his day. These belief systems left a deep impression on him, and he was convinced later that he had to defend the Christian faith against them. He produced some of the most powerful arguments ever offered in defense of God's creation.

Augustine never used the term "science" in its modern sense nor did any other ancient writer, Christian or pagan. This was not because there was no science in antiquity but because it was called natural philosophy. Natural philosophy, up until the nineteenth century generally, meant the knowledge of a specific science and the philosophy of nature implied by that knowledge. He was convinced that two of the most powerful tools in combating false science were reason and sense experience

Augustine's first guideline is to recognize the purpose of Scripture. Human language is slippery. To understand what someone is telling us, we must hear the words and discern the person's intention. The Bible is a special case because it has human authors but behind each one there is a divine author, the Holy Spirit. When we read the Bible, we want to know both the human and divine authors' intentions. The divine intention or purpose of Scripture may be discerned from the language used in a biblical text.
ful tools in combating false science were reason and sense experience.

The purpose of the Bible is redemptive, said Augustine. God gave us the Bible to instruct us in the knowledge of salvation, not science. In his Literal Commentary Augustine asked what Scripture teaches about the shape or the form of the heavens, a topic that many ancient writers addressed. Are the heavens spherical or flat like a disc? Or, does it matter? He responded: "Many scholars engage in lengthy discussion on these matters, but the sacred writers with their deeper wisdom have omittedthem. Such subjects are of no profit for those who seek God, and, what is worse, they take up very precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial." These words may seem to suggest that Augustine disparaged science, and he has been interpreted that way by secular-minded readers. He did not think that natural knowledge was worthless, only that it was inferior to knowledge of God, who made nature. Augustine was saying that the biblical authors were not giving a definitive theory of the heavens in a scientific fashion.

Augustine warned against a danger among Christians of his day and ours. If the Christian insists on a certain scientific theory as if it were the teaching of th e Bi ble, and it turned out to be wrong, then the unbeliever will reject the Bible wholesale and miss the saving purpose God has in composing it. This danger is so real that Augustine emphasized it a number of times in his writings. Unreliable knowledge of nature is not ****ing but it can be a stumbling block "if he thinks his view of nature belongs to the very form of orthodox doctrine, and dares obstinately to affirm something he does not understand." In this case, the Christian's lack of true knowledge becomes an obstacle to the unbeliever's embracing the truth of the gospel. The great harm, says the bishop of Hippo, is not that "an ignorant individual is derided" but that "people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions and . . . the writers of Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men."

Christians sometimes make themselves obstacles to the salvation of others rather than instruments of it. They do so when they equate a scientific theory with the meaning of the Bible. Augustine was well aware of this danger already in the fifth century. Not much has changed since. His solution is humility both in the interpretation of nature and the interpretation of Scripture.

How can such humility be engendered? By recognizing that the Bible is more about "the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven" than it is about "the motion and orbit of the stars, their size and relative positions, and the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon." He warns against self- imposed authorities in biblical interpretation: "Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books."


Is there nothing then in Scripture that bears on science? If the Bible is not a book of science, how can we ever say anything about the natural world with divine authority? Augustine did not think that the Bible was irrelevant to nature. That would be to divide truth, and for Augustine truth is one. His second guideline is to recognize the harmony between natural knowledge and scriptural knowledge. Science and interpretation do not teach the same subjects, but neither do they contradict one another. You will find not cytology in the Bible. The pages of the sacred text say nothing about the structure, functions or interactions of cells. Nor does cytology teach us about the passion, death, and resurrection of Christ.

But suppose a biologist says that the only explanation for the origin of cells is spontaneous generation, that is, origin without any previous cause. The Christian immediately knows that something is amiss, for several reasons. This contradicts the statements of Genesis that all things have their origin from God.

The Literal Commentary advises a two-step procedure. First, we must evaluate whether the scientific claim has any validity. This must be done by the methods of science, empirical observation and theoretical reasoning. It is not enough to quote the Bible against a scientific theory. If we are unsure about the conclusion, we can consider it false. "The truth is rather in what God reveals than in what groping men surmise." This would be true in the case of spontaneous generation. It is a very different claim from those made about the structure of cells. Cell structures can be verified and tested. Spontaneous generation cannot be verified. It is a global statement about what cannot be-that is, no previous cause. And science cannot make statements about what cannot be, only about what is. So, Augustine would say that we can regard spontaneous generation as false unless someone can verify it.

Suppose someone says that the earth is no more than ten thousand years old, as Christians in the West believed for centuries. Again, we should test this claim by the means that science has at its disposal. For well over a hundred years historical geology has developed tests to show that the earth must be far older than ten thousand years. These tests are cross-checked and rechecked to make sure the time estimates are not flawed. Now what should we do? Shall we insist that the Bible teaches that the earth is no more than ten thousand years old? Could it be that our interpretation is wrong? Augustine advises the second step: "But if they are able to establish their doctrine with proofsthat cannot be denied, we must show that this statement of Scripture . . . is not opposed to the truth of their conclusions." He urges us to change our interpretation of Scripture, not because Scripture is to be ruled by science, but because no two truths made by God will contradict one another. All truth comes from God, whether discovered by science or by the Church in its interpretation of Scripture. The first question we must ask is whether a particular scientific theory is well-founded. If it is, then we must make sure we don't read the Bible in a manner that contradicts sound knowledge of nature.

God Bless.

Amen
Greetings,

Thankyou for your considered reply, I think you may have underestimated my scientific knowledge and that of the Bible. There is a long tradition of scientists, mathematicians, cosmologists and theologians and christian bible scholars who support a Geocentric Universe model, in fact the vast majority of human beings who have lived have known this to be the case, it is only a modern occurance for this view to be supplanted with the Kabbahla, the Kabbahla contrary to Scripture establishes evolution, the Big-Bang and an expanding universe with the earth relegated to a insignificant position, none of this is true, in fact it is merely Jewish mysticism that is based on the Zohar, Talmud and Kabbahla, they are not scientifically proven concepts, they are unproven theories that are used for deception, deception is the aim, if you want to decieve, you do not tell people the truth you tell them the opposite.

As I said the Bible states that the sun moves and the earth is stationary and scientific experiment and observation prove this to be correct.
 
May 3, 2009
246
2
0
#22
Greetings,

Thankyou for your considered reply, I think you may have underestimated my scientific knowledge and that of the Bible. There is a long tradition of scientists, mathematicians, cosmologists and theologians and christian bible scholars who support a Geocentric Universe model, in fact the vast majority of human beings who have lived have known this to be the case, it is only a modern occurance for this view to be supplanted with the Kabbahla, the Kabbahla contrary to Scripture establishes evolution, the Big-Bang and an expanding universe with the earth relegated to a insignificant position, none of this is true, in fact it is merely Jewish mysticism that is based on the Zohar, Talmud and Kabbahla, they are not scientifically proven concepts, they are unproven theories that are used for deception, deception is the aim, if you want to decieve, you do not tell people the truth you tell them the opposite.

As I said the Bible states that the sun moves and the earth is stationary and scientific experiment and observation prove this to be correct.
I certainly am not a professional astronomer but my life experience outside of a cacoon leads me to infer that the overwhelming weight of scientific evidence supports our earth and the solar system moving through a galaxy which is itself moving. Therefore, I defer to that scientific opinion and believe that the bible better be left to matters of faith.

BTW, koolaide is not healthy.

God Bless.

Amen
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#23
The Geocentric Universe model was disproven by Galileo by observations of the phases of Venus through telescope, long ago. A model is a model, it is useful in some things. But the Heliocentric model is more precise and better for use in space travel. I bet none of those people who support the Geocentric model have ever travelled into space.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#24
I certainly am not a professional astronomer but my life experience outside of a cacoon leads me to infer that the overwhelming weight of scientific evidence supports our earth and the solar system moving through a galaxy which is itself moving. Therefore, I defer to that scientific opinion and believe that the bible better be left to matters of faith.

BTW, koolaide is not healthy.

God Bless.

Amen
1 Chronicles 16:30

"tremble before Him, all earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved."

Psalms 93:1

"The Lord reigns; He is robed in majesty; the Lord is robed, He is girded with strength. Yea, the world is established; it shall never be moved."

"God is not the author of confusion"

Isaiah 38:8

"Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees...ten degrees backward. So THE SUN RETURNED ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down."

Book of Enoch XLI:5-7

"And I saw the chambers of the sun and moon, whence they prceed and whither they come again, and their glorious return, and how one is superior to the other, and their stately orbit, AND HOW THEY DO NOT LEAVE THEIR ORBIT, and they add nothing to their orbit and they take nothing from it, and they keep faith with each other, in accordance with the oath by which they are bound together. First sun goes forth and traverses his path according to the commandment of the Lord of Spirits and His mighty name for ever and ever."
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#25
The problem for you Cup-of-Ruin is that the book of Enoch clearly supports a flat-earth. So if you quote from Enoch (and elsewhere) and take the scriptures literally to prove your point that the earth is fixed and doesn't rotate, you must also believe in a flat earth. Do you believe in a flat earth? If not, why aren't you agreeing with the scriptures ? A flat earth position for you is even more of a problem considering you live in Australia.
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#26
It should also be noted that despite the bible suggesting a geocentric earth model or flat earth, these references may not be inspired by God, or if they are, are symbolic only in meaning, not to be taken literally. This is because the authors of the scripture were simply drawing from the best secular knowledge they had at the time. And today, we should do the same. So your view that "the bible says it , so it must be true" is not the most scientific or logical approach.

As neighbors, the ancient Hebrews had the Egyptians to the southwest and the Babylonians to the northeast. Both civilizations had flat-earth cosmologies. The Biblical cosmology closely parallels the Sumero-Babylonian cosmology, and it may also draw upon Egyptian cosmology.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/flat/flateart.htm
The ancient Hebrews viewed the earth as being flat, Genesis 1:6-8 and 1:17, Dan 4:10-11 for example.

The New Testament also implies a flat earth. For instance, Matthew 4:8 says that "The devil took him [Jesus] to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory." From a sufficiently high mountain, one could see all of the kingdoms of the world"but only if the earth were flat. The same applies to Revelation 1:7, which says that at the second coming, "Every eye shall see him." Finally, Revelation 7:1 refers to "the four corners of the earth," and corners are not generally associated with spheres.

Actually, if you want a good picture of the hebrew conception of the earth, look in a Jewish encyclopedia under "cosmography." You might also want to read the so-called "Ethiopic" Book of Enoch, written perhaps 150 B.C. While not canonical, it's paraphrased or quoted a couple of times in the New Testament, so it was highly regarded in those days. Its flat earth implications are even stronger.

The Biblical cosmos model derives from Egyptian sources, which had a flat earth covered by a rounded sky vault supported at the four corners of the earth by high mountains. The 'waters above and the waters below' in the book of Genesis refer to the Babylonian notion that the waters were divided, and some remained above the sky vault. The vault was like a leaky roof and some of that water falls down as rain.
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#27
Is there a proof that Earth moves?

How do we know that Earth and other planets go around the Sun, and not the opposite?

aberration (slight change in stellar positions due to Earth's speed), parallax (slight change in stellar positions due to Earth's changing position) and Doppler effect (slight change in color of stars due to Earth's speed) all prove that Earth is moving around the Sun, and not the other way round.

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=190
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#28
It should also be noted that despite the bible suggesting a geocentric earth model or flat earth, these references may not be inspired by God, or if they are, are symbolic only in meaning, not to be taken literally.
All of scripture is inspired by God, now you question the Bible because it supports a Geocentric universe, you do this because you believe the traditions and lies of men and do not really trust the Lord. "Sun stand still" means the sun ceased from moving in its orbit around the earth, that what it means, there is no question about the Bible supporting a Geocentric system, the word is absolutely crystal clear on that.


This is because the authors of the scripture were simply drawing from the best secular knowledge they had at the time.
Well it looks like we have a deciever here, 'Mahogany Snail' is of the opinion that the authors of the Bible 'were simply drawing from the best secular knowledge at the time'! So according to you the Prophets and the Apostles and Moses were not moved by the Holy Ghost and not inspired by the Living God to pen the Bible but that they simply used secular and human knowlede and ingenuity to write the Bible and that the knowledge in the Bible is therefore compromised.

Well Mr, you are a wolf in sheep clothing with no Faith in God or His Word.


And today, we should do the same. So your view that "the bible says it , so it must be true" is not the most scientific or logical approach.
Again you clearly state that the Bible is not logical or scientific and that nobody is allowed to claim that because the Bible says it, it must be true, Mr, the Bible is true!

As neighbors, the ancient Hebrews had the Egyptians to the southwest and the Babylonians to the northeast. Both civilizations had flat-earth cosmologies. The Biblical cosmology closely parallels the Sumero-Babylonian cosmology, and it may also draw upon Egyptian cosmology.
The Hebrews knew of a Sphererical earth, to say that Biblical cosmolgy paralles Sumero-Babylonian cosmology is an outright bold faced lie and completely untrue!!!!



I wont even waste my time argueing with an atheist like yourself who is doing everything in his power to discredit the Bible. I will state, that the Bible clearly and concisely defines the Earth as being a sphere and set steadfast in place by invisble forces, the Bible defines a cosmology completely unique to all other ancient beliefs, it supports a Geocentric model of the universe.
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#29
I wont even waste my time argueing with an atheist like yourself who is doing everything in his power to discredit the Bible. I will state, that the Bible clearly and concisely defines the Earth as being a sphere and set steadfast in place by invisble forces, the Bible defines a cosmology completely unique to all other ancient beliefs, it supports a Geocentric model of the universe.

You do believe in a flat earth don't you, you are just too afraid to admit it. The bible is clear that the earth has four corners,

Isa 11:12 And He shall lift up a banner for the nations, and shall gather the outcasts of Israel and gather together the scattered ones of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

and that's me taking it as literally as you take it that the earth is fixed. If you don't believe the earth is flat as well as fixed, then you are just picking and choosing what verses you want to believe in. Or have I just shown you up that you don't take the bible as literally as you claim to?
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#30
You do believe in a flat earth don't you, you are just too afraid to admit it. The bible is clear that the earth has four corners,

Isa 11:12 And He shall lift up a banner for the nations, and shall gather the outcasts of Israel and gather together the scattered ones of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Right, this is not for you it is for others who watch from the sidelines, because they do not like confrontations.

'Kanaph' is the Hebrew word that in this verse that 'corners' is translated from, means - extremities! Are you so ignorant that you do not know that a Sphere can be divided into quarters!

The Bible does not state that the earth is flat, you do accuse the Bible of such and you do so in a subtle way. The Bible states that the earth is a Sphere, which of course it is, God made it so, I believe He would know what shape His earth is, He also fixed it so it cannot move, it is the sun and moon and all the heavens that revolve around the earth!

You are ignorant and without faith in God! You trust in the deceptions of men! Do you realize that Satan is in control of this earth right now, he controls all governments, he controls all armies, he controls all universities, he controls all companies and he controls your NASA idol and all those fake little photographs that They take at NASA to prop up their false cosmology, when they know nothing! They know nothing of the universe, those photographs you see of outer space, they are simulated, simulated, computer enhanced imagery and do you realize child that if you take NASA to task, they will admit it, they will admit that it's all fake and they will break down and cry into their bottle that they know nothing and they only do and say what their told! You've been lied to child, your whole world is a lie but you would rather believe the lie then face the truth, the truth of the Bible and God's Word which IS A HAMMER that BREAKS ROCKS IN PIECES! What would the Word really do to you if you faced it, well it looks like you would turn and run child, you would turn and run straight back to the lies and deception from which you came....
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#31
Re:
'Kanaph' is the Hebrew word that in this verse that 'corners' is translated from, means - extremities! Are you so ignorant that you do not know that a Sphere can be divided into quarters!

A flat earth can be divided into quarters too, so what?


Re: sphere being divided into quarters.

Actually if you divide a sphere into quarters each quarter will have 2 corners not one. So there would be 8 corners not 4 as the bible states. Besides the book of Enoch which you liked to quote from earlier is even clearer that the earth is flat.

Re: your comments on NASA

Don't worry I've had my fair share of experience in dealing with kooks on the internet over the years.

I hope you take notice of these definitions of a kook:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/whatisakook.htm
  1. Kooks are paranoid. Most kooks are big believers in conspiracies large and small. They seem to think everyone is out to harm them or at least silence them (because they alone know the truth, (see d). From the mighty New World Order, to various three letter agencies of the Federal Government to anyone on the NG who disagrees with them, kooks see enemies everywhere and make lists of them (see a).
  1. Kooks are always right. They have had the absolute "TRUTH" bestowed upon them by god or the aliens or by the voices in their heads or whatever. They are utterly convinced that they, and only they, know the "TRUTH." No matter how many times their beliefs are proven wrong, they continue to cling to them like grim death and will never, EVER admit to being wrong about ANYTHING.
Kooks are incapable of intellectual debate. Kooks believe they are in possession of the absolute TRUTH on a given subject or subjects and they are here to share that truth, not debate it. Since kooks are always right and will never ever admit to being wrong (see d), they refuse to debate their beliefs and tolerate no skepticism toward them. To a kook, anyone who disagrees with them MUST be either ignorant, insane or a paid disinformation agent out to discredit them (see c).




So please take your meds, now where's this ignore feature....
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#32
Re:


A flat earth can be divided into quarters too, so what?


Re: sphere being divided into quarters.

Actually if you divide a sphere into quarters each quarter will have 2 corners not one. So there would be 8 corners not 4 as the bible states.
The Bible says 'extremities'! Your Bible translation is a translation, do you know what that word means? Look at the verse, you haven't read it I know, but if you did you would read how God is talking about gathering His people from all over the earth, from the 'extremities' of the earth, His lost sheep and the dispersed from the North, South, East and West extremities of the earth, for that is how He divided it so.


Besides the book of Enoch which you liked to quote from earlier is even clearer that the earth is flat.
No it does not that is a lie! Enoch does not state that the earth is flat! The earth is known to be a sphere in all original scripture and all of God's people all the way back to Adam know that the earth is a sphere.

Re: your comments on NASA

Don't worry I've had my fair share of experience in dealing with kooks on the internet over the years.
Fake photographs from a phony secular propaganda machine that is about as far away from reality as one can get, but I have no doubt that you along with the vast majority will continue to doubt God's word and believe the lies of Satan and you will do so because you cannot understand truth, you actually believe that the Hubble telescope is taking real photgraphs of galaxies billions of light years away, you believe it because that is what you were told, you saw it in a magazine and on television and your teachers at school told you it was real and so you just believed it was, because that was the easy thing to do, you think that God is going to take pictures for you, He is going to make all neat and nice and easily digestable for you, no, does not work that way. Go and and sacrifice yourself for truth, go and find the biggest telescope in the world and have a look at what you see! You won't see very much but if your serious, you will want to see for yourself, but then oh, no, you must be outside the earth atmosphere otherwise you cannot see what the Hubble sees, so lets look inside the Hubble and what do we find? We find a computer image enhansing device which simulates what NASA believes you would see if you actually could see it! Go talk to NASA, what are you afraid of? You think NASA are obligated to tell you the truth, no one is going to tell you the truth kid accept God, and God isn't with NASA!
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#33
Reference in Enoch to the flat earth is given below.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth


Some theologians and Biblical researchers maintain that at least some of the writers of the Old Testament books of the Bible wrote text compatible with a Babylonian world view, according to which Earth is flat[5] and stands on pillars, and is covered by a solid sky-dome,[6][7] the Firmament. The firmament was the heaven in which God set the sun (Psalm 19:5) and the stars (Gen 1:14).[8] The flat earth concept appears to be mentioned in Isaiah 40:22, where it speaks of God "dwelling above the circle of earth." According to researcher Paul Seely, "there is nothing either in the underlying Hebrew word (hug) or in the context which necessarily implies anything more than the circularity of the flat earth-disc." If the author wanted to describe the Earth as a globe, he most likely would have used the word dur (as in Isaiah 22:18), meaning a "ball." The fact that he did not may indicate he shared a Babylonian or Egyptian concept of a flat Earth.[9] Paul Seely later conceded, "I have never said or implied that the Bible ‘teaches’ either that the ‘firmament’ is solid or that the ‘earth’ is a flat disc. Rather, I believe both are divinely inspired concessions to the views of the times..." [10] Contemporaries could choose to interpret the earth as flat in Genesis, but flatness of the earth was not explicitly taught in the Bible. Job 26:7 states that God was "hanging the earth upon nothing" and the same verse also described the north (of the Earth) as hanging over nothing too. The non-canonical Book of Enoch presents a concept in which the Sun and Moon move in and out of the Firmament dome through a series of openings (reflecting the apparent movement of their rising and setting points throughout the year). This is explained in considerable detail in the following excerpt:
"This is the first commandment of the luminaries: The sun is a luminary whose egress is an opening of heaven, which is (located) in the direction of the east, and whose ingress is (another) opening of heaven, (located) in the west. I saw six openings through which the sun rises and six openings through which it sets. The moon also rises and sets through the same openings, and they are guided by the stars; together with those whom they lead, they are six in the east and six in the west heaven. All of them (are arranged) one after another in a constant order. There are many windows (both) to the right and the left of these openings. First there goes out the great light whose name is the sun; its roundness is like the roundness of the sky; and it is totally filled with light and heat. The chariot in which it ascends is (driven by) the blowing wind. The sun sets in the sky (in the west) and returns by the northeast in order to go to the east; it is guided so that it shall reach the eastern gate and shine in the face of the sky" (1 Enoch 72:2-5).[11]
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#34
Fake photographs from a phony secular propaganda machine that is about as far away from reality as one can get, but I have no doubt that you along with the vast majority will continue to doubt God's word and believe the lies of Satan and you will do so because you cannot understand truth, you actually believe that the Hubble telescope is taking real photgraphs of galaxies billions of light years away, you believe it because that is what you were told, you saw it in a magazine and on television and your teachers at school told you it was real and so you just believed it was, because that was the easy thing to do, you think that God is going to take pictures for you, He is going to make all neat and nice and easily digestable for you, no, does not work that way. Go and and sacrifice yourself for truth, go and find the biggest telescope in the world and have a look at what you see! You won't see very much but if your serious, you will want to see for yourself, but then oh, no, you must be outside the earth atmosphere otherwise you cannot see what the Hubble sees, so lets look inside the Hubble and what do we find? We find a computer image enhansing device which simulates what NASA believes you would see if you actually could see it! Go talk to NASA, what are you afraid of? You think NASA are obligated to tell you the truth, no one is going to tell you the truth kid accept God, and God isn't with NASA!

Images are not fake as they are extremely similar to the images seen through the best telescopes today on the ground. God won't take pictures for us, but thankfully NASA has. So let me see, I can believe NASA, or I can believe you, hmm tough choice ;) . I feel sorry for you. Let me guess, you also don't believe that they put man on the moon. What led you to put aside all rational thought and common sense and believe this conspiracy theories? I believe this is only the tip of the iceberg about the kookiness in what you believe in, look forward to your next post, what will it be next time?, the illuminati, Lizard men, the Nephilim, 9/11 ?, don't worry I'm well versed in conspiracy theories, only difference between me and you is, I don't believe in them, I know the difference between fact and fiction.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#35
Reference in Enoch to the flat earth is given below.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth


Some theologians and Biblical researchers maintain that at least some of the writers of the Old Testament books of the Bible wrote text compatible with a Babylonian world view, according to which Earth is flat[5] and stands on pillars, and is covered by a solid sky-dome,[6][7] the Firmament. The firmament was the heaven in which God set the sun (Psalm 19:5) and the stars (Gen 1:14).[8] The flat earth concept appears to be mentioned in Isaiah 40:22, where it speaks of God "dwelling above the circle of earth." According to researcher Paul Seely, "there is nothing either in the underlying Hebrew word (hug) or in the context which necessarily implies anything more than the circularity of the flat earth-disc." If the author wanted to describe the Earth as a globe, he most likely would have used the word dur (as in Isaiah 22:18), meaning a "ball." The fact that he did not may indicate he shared a Babylonian or Egyptian concept of a flat Earth.[9] Paul Seely later conceded, "I have never said or implied that the Bible ‘teaches’ either that the ‘firmament’ is solid or that the ‘earth’ is a flat disc. Rather, I believe both are divinely inspired concessions to the views of the times..." [10] Contemporaries could choose to interpret the earth as flat in Genesis, but flatness of the earth was not explicitly taught in the Bible. Job 26:7 states that God was "hanging the earth upon nothing" and the same verse also described the north (of the Earth) as hanging over nothing too. The non-canonical Book of Enoch presents a concept in which the Sun and Moon move in and out of the Firmament dome through a series of openings (reflecting the apparent movement of their rising and setting points throughout the year). This is explained in considerable detail in the following excerpt:
"This is the first commandment of the luminaries: The sun is a luminary whose egress is an opening of heaven, which is (located) in the direction of the east, and whose ingress is (another) opening of heaven, (located) in the west. I saw six openings through which the sun rises and six openings through which it sets. The moon also rises and sets through the same openings, and they are guided by the stars; together with those whom they lead, they are six in the east and six in the west heaven. All of them (are arranged) one after another in a constant order. There are many windows (both) to the right and the left of these openings. First there goes out the great light whose name is the sun; its roundness is like the roundness of the sky; and it is totally filled with light and heat. The chariot in which it ascends is (driven by) the blowing wind. The sun sets in the sky (in the west) and returns by the northeast in order to go to the east; it is guided so that it shall reach the eastern gate and shine in the face of the sky" (1 Enoch 72:2-5).[11]
Ahh, no again, the Book of Enoch does NOT state the earth is flat. You havn't read the Book of Enoch but you can find a Wikipedia opinion, do you know that Wikipedia is not a source? Do you know that, Wikipedia is a links page and a compilation of opinions...for example; an ignorant person like yourself who thinks he knows more then Enoch can feel self assured that his opinion is worth something, well your opinion is as worthless as the wikiopinion that you just linked to, it does not count as a resource or reference! Where does Enoch state that the earth is flat? Where does the Bible state that the earth is flat? Where O where? You have just fallen for the old 'Flat Earth Myth'! You think that that the Hebrews believed in a flat earth, you believe that Enoch and Moses and all the Apostles and God Himself all believed that the earth was Flat, do you know when the flat earth myth began? about the same time as the evolution myth kicked off, before that everybody that followed God knew that the Earth was round, a sphere.
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#36
Wikipedia is a good collection of facts and sources, not merely opinion. In fact, a fellow such as yourself can go to wikipedia and correct it if you think it is in error. That's the scary thing I guess.

Hey , you're the one ignoring NASA and everyone else. I am the ignorant one? pffft.

Let's read this paragraph again about kooks shall we:

Kooks are incapable of intellectual debate. Kooks believe they are in possession of the absolute TRUTH on a given subject or subjects and they are here to share that truth, not debate it. Since kooks are always right and will never ever admit to being wrong (see d), they refuse to debate their beliefs and tolerate no skepticism toward them. To a kook, anyone who disagrees with them MUST be either ignorant, insane or a paid disinformation agent out to discredit them (see c).

I may not agree with you, but thanks for the laughs.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#37
Wikipedia is a good collection of facts and sources, not merely opinion. In fact, a fellow such as yourself can go to wikipedia and correct it if you think it is in error. That's the scary thing I guess.
exactly, anyone can write any opinion on Wikipedia, I could write one opinion and you could write another and that is why Wikipedia and by it's own admission is not a scholarly source or reference, you might as well link a Myspace page.

Hey , you're the one ignoring NASA and everyone else. I am the ignorant one? pffft.
Im the one who has confronted NASA and they are the ones who have pleaded guilty to peddling lies for the money of the devil, and admit that want they print is not real. You can ask them if you like.

Again I state that the Bible describes an earth that is a sphere, is stationary and fixed so it cannot be moved and is held fixed in it's place at the centre of the universe, the sun and the moon and the planets are in orbit around the earth, the planets have an orbit around the sun, the sun orbits the earth, the earth is not a planet, but the centre of the universe and the only place where life can be found.

Isaiah 40:22

"As He sitteth upon the circle (Latin: globo. Hebrew: Khug. Greek: Gyrus) of the earth"

Proverbs 8:27

"When He set a compass on the face of the deep"

Job 26:10

"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end."
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#38
Im the one who has confronted NASA and they are the ones who have pleaded guilty to peddling lies for the money of the devil, and admit that want they print is not real. You can ask them if you like.
Where is this alleged admission? Did they say " yes , we've been peddling lies for the money of the devil"
 
May 3, 2009
246
2
0
#39
Again I state that the Bible describes an earth that is a sphere, is stationary and fixed so it cannot be moved and is held fixed in it's place at the centre of the universe, the sun and the moon and the planets are in orbit around the earth, the planets have an orbit around the sun, the sun orbits the earth, the earth is not a planet, but the centre of the universe and the only place where life can be found.

Isaiah 40:22

"As He sitteth upon the circle (Latin: globo. Hebrew: Khug. Greek: Gyrus) of the earth"

Proverbs 8:27

"When He set a compass on the face of the deep"

Job 26:10

"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end."

No need to debate what the bible alllegedly says about the shape of the earth and the movement or lack of it of the earth and other extra-terrestrial bodies.

What the bible says about matters that are not matters of faith is totally IRRELEVANT. Irrelevant! Christian belief is not affected one way or another by such alleged statements because they are not relevant to the message that Christ is our Redeemer and that there is One God. It is for this message of faith, and only this message, that you should respect the bible as the inspired Word of God.

Got it? [I doubt it, but I will be the eternal optimist].

God Bless.

Amen
 
S

suaso

Guest
#40
If the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around it: There is one God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), Jesus (the Son) is savior of the world.

If the Earth is round and revolves around the Sun: There is one God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), Jesus (the Son) is savior of the world.

Either way, all truths found in the Bible regarding all things necessary for the salvation of your soul, my soul, and the soul of every person is still true! It's a win-win situation! Woo hoo!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.