Question about Church

[SantoSubito]

Who is the vine? Its Jesus. Who are the branches? The saved.
You want to claim the branches on the left side of the vine as the "true branches."
The Roman Catholic church don't dictate who the Lord saves. Claiming "The True
Church" is this:

Curious. The RCC makes no pronouncements at to whether or not Protestants are saved, we say that salvation can be found in your churches, but any salvation in your churches is a result of the person being joined, though imperfectly, to the Catholic Church in baptism.

1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
I am of Apollos, so I'm the real Christian. No, you're wrong, I'm of Paul, so I am the real
Christian. So which denomination is the true church. The Paul denomination or the Apollos
denomination? Neither. They are just branches in the vine.

Funny thing is I think you've summed up Protestantism better than anything I could of wrote. In Protestant circles people often run around trying to find the church with the "most entertaining/interesting preacher" Evangelicalism in particular is one big cult of personality. Catholics don't have that we pick a parish and stick with it often going through a priest change once every 5 or so years.

Think of it this way. Ask a Catholic where they go to church ods are they'll say "A Catholic church". Ask a Protestant and you'll get "Grace Freewill Baptist church", "Wayside Church of Christ", "Crossroads Community church",etc.

Sorry it's just the verse in question is speaking of unity and there is no concrete unity in Protestantism.

 

[dscherck]

It seems to me you are missing the whole point- Christianity isn't about religion it is about a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter what you call yourself or what sign hangs in front of the church it is about what is in your heart and that you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Saviour and how we conduct ourselves and treat others according to the Bible.

Christianity isn't about religion?

 

[jimmydiggs]

Christianity isn't about religion?

Depends on how you define religion.

 

[feedm3]

While some Churches are claiming to be "The Only True Church", what is your concept of a "True Church"?

Well since others have shown their view I guess I can put in my two cents.

Here are list of her identifying characteristics found within the Bible.
If I were looking for the true church, I would first go the word of God, and next I would compare it to the teachings and practices of what ever church I was attending.

The true church is found within the pages of the NT.

1. Jesus built his church - Matt 16:18 It should not bear the name of a founding man since a man did not build it.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


2.Christ is head- A church teaching that a man is head cannot be the same church that Christ built. He is head of His church, not Peter or any other earthly representative -
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.


3. Added by the Lord Acts 2:38, 47 - so those who take a vote to accept new members are not getting that idea from scripture, therefore cannot be the same church Christ built.
upon the believers in Acts 2, the only way they were added to the church was by believing Peter's sermon and being baptized into the church.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
They were not added to any denomination, we know this because none existed at this time. They were added to the same church Christ built.

4. Unity - There is only one church with one faith: anyone who says all faiths are ok as long as we believe in Chirst cannot be the same church Christ built because that church is instructed not to accept anything other than what what was taught. Rom 16:17, Gal 1:8-9.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
There are not many bodies with many faiths, nor one body with many faiths, but as the Bible says "one body, one faith".
agreeing to disagree is not the answer for divsion. we cannot have unity through diversity because we all must speak, judge, and teach the same if we are members of the Lord's church:

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.



5. Autonomy - The church Christ built did not have an earthly headquarters governing the congregations.
The local congregations in the NT church were self governing, with the appointment of qualified men to serve as shepherds. Though these men serve in an authoritative role, they cannot go beyond what is written and override any of the scriptures.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
(overseers is from the same word meaning bishops. Overseers, bishop, elders, shepherd all refer to the same office of overseeing a local congregation).
Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

6. NO creed book - The only book that has authority would be the word of God, not any man written creed books, defining our faith for us. The authority is the Bible, because that is all we need - II Tim 3:15-17.
The Bible does not need an addition.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

7. The Lords supper - the example we have in scripture is that the chrisitans met every first day of the week and they partook of the Lord's supper. Anyone who does not partake every first day are not repeating the pattern we find in scripture that the Lord's church carried out every week.
Act_20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

8. Giving - As with the Lord's supper, every first day of the week - never any example of this other than on this day. Not speaking of giving in general, but when a Crhistian puts back that which he has decided to give to the church.
1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

I know there are many on here who will say, where does it say we have to do everything this way.
Yet to answer your question of which is the true church, how can we identify it other than the command, example, and inference we derive from Bible?
If we want to know which is true, we need to look first at the one we know is true without a doubt, the one Christ built.

 

[Trax]

Funny thing is I think you've summed up Protestantism better than anything I could of wrote. In Protestant circles people often run around trying to find the church with the "most entertaining/interesting preacher" Evangelicalism in particular is one big cult of personality. Catholics don't have that we pick a parish and stick with it often going through a priest change once every 5 or so years.

If the local assembly is preaching false doctrine, you can find one that isn't
With RCC, you can get stuck with the false doctrine and no where to go.
Personally, I consider the RCC to be just a pagan religion, whose roots go back to
Nimrod. But I have been giving you and others in the RCC the benefit of actually
being saved. You wanted to bring Protestism into the picture. I pointed out, no
group can claim "The True Church." Mormons claim the same thing. So do JW's.
I didn't want to discuss who is saved and who isn't, but that no one has the right
to claim "the true church."

 

[feedm3]

If the local assembly is preaching false doctrine, you can find one that isn't
With RCC, you can get stuck with the false doctrine and no where to go.
Personally, I consider the RCC to be just a pagan religion, whose roots go back to
Nimrod. But I have been giving you and others in the RCC the benefit of actually
being saved. You wanted to bring Protestism into the picture. I pointed out, no
group can claim "The True Church." Mormons claim the same thing. So do JW's.
I didn't want to discuss who is saved and who isn't, but that no one has the right
to claim "the true church."

Then how can anyone be saved?
If the body is the church - Col 1:18

And there is only one body - Eph 4:4-5

And thier is only one faith - Eph 4:4-5

And Chirst is the "savior of the body"(the one body with one faith) -Eph 5:23

Who will be saved?

If their is no true church then it seem the gates of hades did prevail and Christ was wrong - Matt 16:18
And if he is only saving the one church, and that is no longer here we all might as well eat drink and be merry because wrath is coming.

 

[SantoSubito]

If the local assembly is preaching false doctrine, you can find one that isn't
With RCC, you can get stuck with the false doctrine and no where to go.
Personally, I consider the RCC to be just a pagan religion, whose roots go back to
Nimrod. But I have been giving you and others in the RCC the benefit of actually
being saved. You wanted to bring Protestism into the picture. I pointed out, no
group can claim "The True Church." Mormons claim the same thing. So do JW's.
I didn't want to discuss who is saved and who isn't, but that no one has the right
to claim "the true church."

Terrific, your a true heir to American Fundamentalist teaching then. JW's and Mormons both rely on Restorationist thinking for their claims, Catholicism doesn't, comparing them is apples and oranges. Nor does the fact that some groups unlawfully claim the title make the title instantly false.

Then we get into the problem of exactly how you figure out false doctrine. Apart from the five solas I don't now how you would go about it. Some like confessional Reformed and Lutheran churches don't have this problem to the same degree, but your average American Protestant isn't so fortunate. As The Bible can be made to support any number of things and people are unfortunately easy to convince they are left adrift. In Catholicism we have Tradition and the Magisterium to go to, but Protestants (Evangelicals in particular) have no where to go.

 

[feedm3]

It sounds to me both of you are wrapped up in Protestant, Reformation, Reformation, and all the other movements that are not mentioned one time in the NT.
That's good to be educated in church history, but none of it is found in the Bible, and that is the only source we have to understand what the true church taught and practiced.
The true church did not come out of any of these movements, even if you have been taught that certain churches came from different movements, that does not mean all of them have.

 

[SantoSubito]

It sounds to me both of you are wrapped up in Protestant, Reformation, Reformation, and all the other movements that are not mentioned one time in the NT.
That's good to be educated in church history, but none of it is found in the Bible, and that is the only source we have to understand what the true church taught and practiced.
The true church did not come out of any of these movements, even if you have been taught that certain churches came from different movements, that does not mean all of them have.

You are aware that the church of Christ came out of such a movement right? More specifically a uniquely American movement.

 

[Rahz]

Well since others have shown their view I guess I can put in my two cents.


1. Jesus built his church
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Ok Jesus used/and is still using Man (the apostles) to build his Church


2.Christ is head- A church teaching that a man is head cannot be the same church that Christ built. He is head of His church, not Peter or any other earthly representative -
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

2 He is head of His church, not Peter or any other earthly representative -

1 Peter 3:22

22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.

If there are powers and authorities under God in Heaven, why can't there be powers and authorities under God on earth? There are and God made it so 1 Peter 2:9 NRSA
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.The Catholic Church is the only" Holy Nation" on earth and with a royal priesthood

3. Added by the Lord Acts 2:38, 47 - so those who take a vote to accept new members are not getting that idea from scripture

Acts 1: 23-26

23 So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed and said, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

This says they do take a vote, with guidance from the Holy Spirit


4. Unity - There is only one church with one faith: anyone who says all faiths are ok as long as we believe in Chirst cannot be the same church Christ built because that church is instructed not to accept anything other than what what was taught. Rom 16:17, Gal 1:8-9.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
There are not many bodies with many faiths, nor one body with many faiths, but as the Bible says "one body, one faith".
agreeing to disagree is not the answer for divsion. we cannot have unity through diversity because we all must speak, judge, and teach the same if we are members of the Lord's church:

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.



5. Autonomy - The church Christ built did not have an earthly headquarters governing the congregations.

1 Peter 3:22

22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.

If there are powers and authorities under God in Heaven, why can't there be powers and authorities under God on earth? There are and God made it so
1 Peter 2:9 NRSA
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light

.The Catholic Church is the only" Holy Nation" on earth and with a royal priesthood

6. NO creed book -

The Creed merely outlines the faith without adding or subtracting from anything Jesus said.


7. The Lords supper -

Acts 8:14-17

14 Now when the apostles that were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit: 16 for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Laying of hands is essential to change the physical man into the spiritual man -- a change that is proven but not obvious to a common bystander

If God can change Man using a man. He can change bread and wine using a man. The Priest uses laying of hands to change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ - a change that is proven* but not obvious to the common bystander

* Miracle of Lanciano -- Wikipedia Miracle of Lanciano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[SantoSubito]

3. Added by the Lord Acts 2:38, 47 - so those who take a vote to accept new members are not getting that idea from scripture

Acts 1: 23-26

23 So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed and said, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

This says they do take a vote, with guidance from the Holy Spirit

While I agree with you on the rest of your points I don't think you quite understood what he was saying. I believe he was condemning the practice of some Protestant churches where they take a vote to determine if a person is admitted as a member to the church, and not the choosing of priests, deacons, bishops, etc.

 

[feedm3]

You are aware that the church of Christ came out of such a movement right? More specifically a uniquely American movement.

I am aware that is what many teach, yet that is not what I believe.

I know about Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone and the rest of which some believe founded the church of Christ.
But, they are just mistaken, I don't know everything they taught, nor do I agree with many things they taught and did.

The "church of Christ" name is taken from Rom 16:16. Every practice we do is found within scripture.

In another words, the Bible is the seed of the kingdom, anyone who wants to start a congregation of the Lord's church can, as long as it is accordance with scripture.

If the "American movement" never would have happened, the church of Christ can and does still exist. All you need is the Bible to understand what to do and not to do in the church.

And I am not speaking for every church that has a "church of Christ" sign, but those who understand that the NT church will never die and we all can be a part of it.

 

[feedm3]

1 Peter 3:22

22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.

If there are powers and authorities under God in Heaven, why can't there be powers and authorities under God on earth? There are and God made it so 1 Peter 2:9 NRSA
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.The Catholic Church is the only" Holy Nation" on earth and with a royal priesthood

Because Chirst said all authoirty has been given to Him in heaven and earth.
Because no one can take Christ's role as head of the church.
I Pet 2:9 does not say we are heads of His church, it is telling us what an honor it is to be part of God's children.

Acts 1: 23-26

23 So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed and said, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

This says they do take a vote, with guidance from the Holy Spirit

This does not say they took a vote to accept converts into the church.
This is about apostleship, and they did not take a vote, they prayed and asked for the "head of the church to show them:
Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
It was still the Lord who chose, yet this still has nothing to do with being added to the church.

The Creed merely outlines the faith without adding or subtracting from anything Jesus said.

No that is not always the case, maybe in some, but even if that is true, then what is the need for them if their not adding or subtracting anything?

 

[SantoSubito]

I am aware that is what many teach, yet that is not what I believe.

I know about Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone and the rest of which some believe founded the church of Christ.
But, they are just mistaken, I don't know everything they taught, nor do I agree with many things they taught and did.

Yes I'm aware of them. Having spent quite a bit of time learning about American history and the emphasis of each religious movement in American history I can pretty confidently say that, the "churches of Christ" can be clearly shown to be a hybrid of the various influences Campbell and Stone had growing up. Stone as you no doubt no was an ordained Presbyterian minister (as was Campbell) Stone also had heavy exposure to the Church of England (having grown up in it), the Baptists, and the Methodists.

Now if we simply take what all these churches have that are unique between each other we come up with the "churches of Christ". First take the Church of England's insistence on a weekly Eucharist, then take the Presbyterians view of the Eucharist (symbolic only), then take Methodists view on good works, and finally the Baptist views of full immersion credo-baptism and church polity. Add all those together and you get the "churches of Christ'.

The "church of Christ" name is taken from Rom 16:16. Every practice we do is found within scripture.

Hardly a unique claim, and before Catholicism needed to differentiate itself from Protestantism it was simply called "the Church", and is still called that among Catholics.

In another words, the Bible is the seed of the kingdom, anyone who wants to start a congregation of the Lord's church can, as long as it is accordance with scripture.

Meh, this relies on Sola Scriptura, and literacy among congregants, and the widespread availability of books. Basically if you can't transplant your model into dark ages Europe and have it work then it won't work in extremely poor countries today. Think about it, you have a situation where only a select few nobles can read (and then only in Latin), none of the commoners can read, books cost as much as a large house would today, and for most languages in Europe the alphabet (or any writing system) had yet to be introduced.

Explain to me how the "churches of Christ" model would work in that situation and it'll go a long way towards convincing me.

 

[TheAristocat]

While some Churches are claiming to be "The Only True Church", what is your concept of a "True Church"?

The One True Church accepts the One True Gospel.

 

[feedm3]

Yes I'm aware of them. Having spent quite a bit of time learning about American history and the emphasis of each religious movement in American history I can pretty confidently say that, the "churches of Christ" can be clearly shown to be a hybrid of the various influences Campbell and Stone had growing up. Stone as you no doubt no was an ordained Presbyterian minister (as was Campbell) Stone also had heavy exposure to the Church of England (having grown up in it), the Baptists, and the Methodists.

Yes thats nice how informed you feel you are, but if you want to know what a Baptist believes, ask one. I does not matter to me if you are confident in misidenfying the church I belong to with what you were taught by those who are probraby not church of Chirst.

Now if we simply take what all these churches have that are unique between each other we come up with the "churches of Christ". First take the Church of England's insistence on a weekly Eucharist, then take the Presbyterians view of the Eucharist (symbolic only), then take Methodists view on good works, and finally the Baptist views of full immersion credo-baptism and church polity. Add all those together and you get the "churches of Christ'.

Well, maybe you just think you know what your talking about. You can challenge me to explain anyting you want, I can show what I believe straight from scripture.
Can you?

Hardly a unique claim, and before Catholicism needed to differentiate itself from Protestantism it was simply called "the Church", and is still called that among Catholics.

It's not meant to be 'unique", it is just simply how we got our name. What does "unique" have anything to do with it?
I am not trying to impress you, I am just explaining what you do not know about the church.

Meh, this relies on Sola Scriptura, and literacy among congregants, and the widespread availability of books. Basically if you can't transplant your model into dark ages Europe and have it work then it won't work in extremely poor countries today. Think about it, you have a situation where only a select few nobles can read (and then only in Latin), none of the commoners can read, books cost as much as a large house would today, and for most languages in Europe the alphabet (or any writing system) had yet to be introduced.

Explain to me how the "churches of Christ" model would work in that situation and it'll go a long way towards convincing me.

well, as far as "dark ages Europe goes, I have no idea why I should compare what I can read, to a what if senerio.

Those who cannot read it or could not read, God will judge fairly because he is just. Yet I will not base my salvation on how someone else could have been hindered from the truth.
"To whom much is given much is required" - Luke 12:48.
and we have been given much (i.e. the ability to pick up a Bible and read it).
It's kinda like asking what if a man was stranded in the desert and wanted to get baptized but had no water, and then died?

Ask yourself, is the church that Christ build still in existence, or did it die out?
If yes it is still here, would not that same church today practice in word and deed the same as the church we find in the NT?

And no offense to you, but I really am not trying to convince you of anything at this point, I am just answering you. I can tell who sincerely wants to know about someones belief from one who just seems to like to hear himself talk. Not trying to be rude, but you spend more time trying to educate me on where the church I belong is from, and yet you only have second hand knowledge. Like I said if you want to know what a baptist believes don't ask a Methodist to explain it.

 

[crissy17]

While some Churches are claiming to be "The Only True Church", what is your concept of a "True Church"?

So, if you are disillusioned with church, perhaps the problem is not "church in general," but rather the type of churches you have experienced thus far. Have you done an exhaustive search to find a good church? It is important to continue to search for a Christ-centered, biblically-balanced church. But as you search, remember also, churches are imperfect. They are full of flawed people. However, we can't let other people's mistakes keep us from a genuine relationship with God and all of the blessings he has planned for us as we relate within his body.

 

[feedm3]

BTW - there are countless congregations in extremely poor countries. Sure they get support from brethren here, but that's ok because "it works" and because we read of the early church supporting each other as well. But even if there were none anywhere else, that does not change what I can read and understand.

 

[Saul_Durian]

I actually read that entire article you posted and then I got to the end of the page only to find out it was the Mormons. I was eagerly expecting it to be some fringe group in like the Nevada desert.

I actually laughed out loud when I realized what it was.

 

[Laodicea]

Before you find the true church you need what is truth according to the Bible. God's true church may not be one of numbers, Noah's time His church was small and other times as well, today is no different.