Did you know that the phase ''faith only'' is used only one time in all of scripture?

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Lauren

Guest
#41
What immaturity - once again if you can't deal with the issues GET OFF THE ROAD - you'll get run over! And once again with feeling - the Bible deals with everyone's issues. For YOUR ISSUES, see Proverbs 16:22, Proverbs 29:11. You may have to ask someone to read it for you?
Oh my, you do take yourself so seriously.

I don't need to "deal with the issues". I know what I know. I come here to talk to other Christians, not to prove a point. Those stumbling blocks in people's way won't be moved by your acerbic wit and vast command of scripture no matter how hard you try. Or is there another reason you try to make people feel bad?
 
L

Lauren

Guest
#42
Oh, and by the way, faith is what saves, not works, so unless you wanted me to argue with you for the sake of arguing......
 
May 3, 2009
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#43
Yet, while works go with our faith, people are saved the moment they believe God's promises. What sort of works show our faith and justify us before God? Easy..prayer, studying God's word, the confession of our mouth, what we do with our daily life, are we good parents or good children, are we good servants or good leaders or good ministers etc, the sorts of things most people accept prove that a person is a christian. The sort of heart-faith which does result in a person acting differently to what they would otherwise.
That is incorrect, we may be justified at a moment based on our actions or behavior, but not "saved" in the sense that God's view of us is inalterably favorable. Confession of faith at most can produce Justification at a moment's notice. Morevoer, your example of works is wrong. Works denote ACTION towards others. James gives us examples of works in Chapter 2. Your examples are qualitatively different, they are not action-oriented. Praying is not a good work. See James below.

2 Cor. 4:16 - though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed "every day." This not only proves that justification is internal (not legal and external), but that it is also ongoing (it's not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior). Our inner nature is being renewed every day as we persevere in faith, hope and love.

John 3:16 - justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him may have eternal life. The word “believes” is “pisteuo” in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one’s life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses “pisteuo” (to obey) and “apitheo” (to disobey). The same word “pisteuo” is used in many other verses about “believing in Christ” such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom. 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their “faith alone” theology). To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

Heb. 5:9 – Paul also confirms this by writing that Jesus became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. Here are some examples of justification as an on-going process, and not a one-time event:


Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham's justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Abraham's justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.
Gen. 14:19, 22-23 - Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.
Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.
Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.

James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the "works" to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).
James 1:27 - another example of "works" is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.
James 2:25 - another example of "works" is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith. Joshua 2:9-11 - Rahab's fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22-25, Rahab alone acted and was saved. This is faith in action.


Also, not to nitpick but works don't "go with faith" as you put it. They complete faith. Faith by itself does not inexorably give rise to works. That is why Faith Alone does NOT Save.

James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.

James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification

1 Peter 2:7-8; John 3:36 - shows that belief in Jesus means obeying Jesus. Having faith means being faithful, which requires good works as well. Hence, obeying Jesus means doing works of love, not just having faith alone.

Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works. v. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#44
Oh, and by the way, faith is what saves, not works, so unless you wanted me to argue with you for the sake of arguing......
The Grace of God is what saves us through our faith, and faith that does not produce fruit is not saving faith.
 
L

Lauren

Guest
#45
The Grace of God is what saves us through our faith, and faith that does not produce fruit is not saving faith.
Like I said, I'm not here to prove a point. You see things right from your side, I see things right from my side...may the Holy Spirit bring the truth to both of us. BTW, hi Ezek ::waving::
 
S

swat4christ

Guest
#46
I know the truth We are saved by grace through faith, not by faith alone :D and even if I were to totally agree with your analysis of James that would change that fact.
May the Lord have mercy, man! No one is refuting that God's grace is involved in a person's salvation! No one could ever have been - or ever could be - saved without God's grace! No matter what kind of theological construct you may find, at the core of it is the grace of God. No person could ever deserve what God has provided in Christ. God’s grace, and resulting mercy, are at the heart of ALL FORGIVENESS AND SALVATION. That isn't what this discussion is about. This discussion is about a Biblical understanding of whether or not a man's “works” play a role in him being saved. BUT I FIGURED OUT YOUR GAME. When I used to teach in theological seminary there was always some young punk who thought that he would prove to the class how smart he was by asking a question that set up a straw dummy - like he thought he was putting forth some kind of riddle - and only he head the answer. These kinds of people are always insecure - for a number of reasons that would require another thread. It seems, that is what you are trying to do. Some of us here are trying to have an intelligent Biblical conversation so that we may be able to help others who have questions about these matters. There are atheists - as well as a potpourri of others with all kinds of false beliefs - who read these comments in these threads. For the sake of all that is right and true, GROW UP, PUT UP, OR SHUT UP! You, like many others apparently, may find these forums a source of amusement or personal entertainment. That’s your prerogative. “Lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God.“ I look to them as a potential source of helping others. You talk about WORKS people! Some of you need to get a life!
 
May 3, 2009
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#47
Oh, and by the way, faith is what saves, not works, so unless you wanted me to argue with you for the sake of arguing......

No, both faith and works save. Works completes the faith. Faith is only the first step.

Faith Alone is solely the product, the "fruit" [using the word loosely] of Luther's imagination, and probably, his troubled psyche. With his doctrine of "justification by faith alone," Luther brought in a new kind of Christianity unlike anything that had gone before. Faith for an apostolic christian is an intellectual virtue based on belief in truth revealed by God and safeguarded by the teaching authority of the Church. For Luther it was instead an emotional virtue, a sentiment of confidence in God's favor. The result has been that religious enthusiasm or feelings supplant doctrinal orthodoxy. Emotional experiences to run riot at the expense of reason.

The new teaching of Faith Alone postulates that alll that man can do is to trust in the mercy of God and believe with firm confidence that God has received him into his favor. As the Augsburg Confession, puts it, "Men are freely justified for Christ's sake through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake." This doctrine of justification by faith was the keystone of the whole Lutheran system. It became the battle cry of the Protestant Reformation.

Consequences of this new doctrine have been most unfortunate. An almost entirely self-centered individualism resulted. Personal conversion based on individual piety, guaranteed by feelings of assurance, became the focus of its work. Popular Protestantism urges the individual "to believe on Christ and be saved." The sense of community and of corporate religion thereby declined. No intermediaries were needed, priests, sacraments, or saints. The individual was supreme to the very Church itself, which had to be defined in a totally different way, no longer as a visible institution founded by our Lord, but as a vague, invisible aggregate of the "saved," known only to God.

The Apostolic Christian has the gospel by his Church; he accepts the truth guaranteed for him by the guidance of the Holy Spirit operating within the Church; he repents of his sins; from the Church, the mystical body of Christ, he receives the very grace and life of Christ, a life he must make his own in accordance with Paul's words: "I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me" (Gal. 2:20). In Apostolic teaching neither the individual nor the Church can be ignored, but Protestant theology, with its doctrine of justification by faith only, changes this equation.

Equally disastrous was the effect upon worship. The Bible, interpreted by each reader for himself, became the one supreme rule of faith. Based on a doctrine of the "inner light," it produced chaos in religious belief and practice about which the Protestants of today are becoming more and more acutely conscious and nervous. In worship, the pulpit supplanted the altar, and the Eucharist became little more than a social meal. The ministry of the Word rendered the ministry of the sacraments almost meaningless.

In this new interpretation of Christianity the sacraments could not be a means of grace; at most they could be "ordinances" to symbolize a favor already conferred. So they came to be regarded as more or less superfluous and to be neglected. Indeed, the logical end of the road was reached in the complete abandonment of liturgical worship and sacramentalism by such bodies as the Quakers and the Salvation Army. The theory of justification by faith alone could not maintain Christian standards of spirituality.

Luther had failed to find peace of soul in ascetic self-discipline and efforts at "good works." He never declared a good life unnecessary. He intended that however great a sinner one may be, granted repentance, he can be justified solely by faith. But to be zealous for good works, thinking them to be a means to salvation, was to manifest a lack of faith in God's power to save.

The popular results of this teaching are disastrous. Men declared that good works prescribed in order to please God were utterly meaningless. It was an easy step from that to conclude that the observance of the moral law itself was not really necessary, still less any ascetical self-discipline for the sake of an imaginary and impossible "spiritual progress."

If there is but an exterior imputation of the righteousness of Christ, there can be no truly interior sanctification of the soul. The one supreme task for a protestant is to reinforce one's feelings of assurance in one's own personal salvation. And such feelings have no necessary connection with obedience to the laws of God or with duties in regard to one's fellow men. Logically such a creed leads to the undermining of Christian standards of conduct and still more of all efforts to attain to higher degrees of holiness in one's personal spiritual life.

The idea of "full, free, and present salvation" for those "justified by faith," as if Christ had done all and the Christian had to do nothing toward his own salvation, led to the dreadful doctrine that it is belief and not behavior that matters - a doctrine which is the very basis of hypocrisy. Christ warned his hearers against imitating the Pharisees, of whom he declared, "They preach but they do not practice" (Matt. 23:3). Quite evidently he thought that not only what we believe matters, but also how we behave. In other words, he insisted on the necessity of both faith and good works for salvation, as does the Apostolic Church. Against this it is urged that Scripture forbids men to rely upon their own righteousness and insists that all must acknowledge that they are sinners needing redemption by Christ.

It is true that we, when we come to Christ, must admit that we are sinners and that he alone can redeem us. Those who turn to Christ must acknowledge his authority as God and as our supreme judge and that we are under condemnation for the sins we have committed and for which wecannot forgive ourselves. Nothing of our own previous righteousnessis matters. Yet after we have repented of our sins and have obtained forgiveness, righteousness is expected of us. God is not indifferent as to how we live. We must show our antagonism toward evil by trying to live a holy life, and the will to do this is necessary for salvation. We cannot rely upon our salvation unless we fulfill that condition.

If that be so, what are we to make of Paul's words, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man may boast?" (Eph. 2:8-9). Paul is there referring to the fact that before one's conversion and attaining to the grace of Christ no "good works" can possibly deserve that grace and also to the fact that, even after one's conversion, it is the grace of Christ which gives value to good works done under its inspiration and with its assistance. But Paul does not deny the value of good works performed under the influence of grace after one's conversion as a means to eternal salvation.

Christ himself certainly went out of his way to stress the necessity of good works for our salvation. He warned us, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21). Praising good works, he said, "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is very great in heaven" (Matt. 5:12). He declared that such good works, or the absence of them, will be a deciding factor in the Last Judgment. Then he will say, "Come, you blessed . . . for I was hungry and you fed me," or "Depart you cursed, for I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat" (Matt. 25:34, 41). How can it be said that salvation is "wholly without works" if, for lack of good works, it can be forfeited?

Paul wrote, "I have fought the good fight . . . and there is laid up for me a crown of justice" (2 Tim. 4:8). That implies that good works done by those in a state of grace provide one with a just claim in Christ to eternal salvation. In the same sense Peter says, "Wherefore, labor the more, that by good works you make sure your calling and election" (2 Pet. 1:10). If we believe in the Bible, we must believe in all of it, not concentrating on a few isolated texts and forgetting all else.

Here allusion can well be made to the case so often cited, that of the good thief to whom Christ said on Calvary, "This day you shall be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Since that thief had done no good works, how can we explain his salvation, if faith alone is not sufficient? To say that the good thief did no good works is to take far too narrow a view of what good works mean. We must not think only of being good to the poor or of other forms of humanitarianism. After all, the good thief publicly proclaimed the innocence of Christ and equally, with deep humility, acknowledged his own guilt. These were already good works.

In any case, that the good thief did not have time to do further good works after his conversion could not affect the principle that good works are necessary, good works which the good thief would certainly have the will to do, had he had the opportunity. Paul wrote to the Galatians, "In doing good let us not fail. For in due time we shall reap, not failing. Therefore while we have time let us work good to all men, but especially to those who are of the household of the faith" (Gal. 6:9-10).

It rests with God how much time each of us will have. But while we have it God expects us to do good, and our salvation depends upon our doing it. If we do it, Paul tells us that we shall reap our reward. And our Lord himself tells us, as we have seen, that our not doing it can result in the loss of our souls.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#48
Pardon mr, but I believe my point was made anyhow. i 'm saying the knowledge of ones existence( God's in this case) was my point. I have a version that just says " You believe there is one God. Good! But even the demons believe that, too, and they tremble with fear." ya know?

but i digress...
I have known of kinds of people who has been raised in church and will tell you that they believe that there is one God , but have never trusted Him or had faith in Him for their saving grace, and just as the devils who believe in one God who has never accepted Him as their Lord, all these will share the same place one day. I work because I am saved just as most of these scriptures are in the question forem not stating a doctrine but rather asking questions this is the dortrine preached here but many miss it because they dont distinquish between a question and a statement:
Jas 2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
Ro 11:6And if by grace, then is it no more of WORKS: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of WORKS, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Eph 2:9Not of works, lest any man should boast.Eph 2:10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Go ahead and boast on your works all you want , and when you get there you can say but Jesus look at all the great works we did in your name , but as far as me and my House we will trust in the Lord !!!!!
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#49
Here allusion can well be made to the case so often cited, that of the good thief to whom Christ said on Calvary, "This day you shall be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Since that thief had done no good works, how can we explain his salvation, if faith alone is not sufficient? To say that the good thief did no good works is to take far too narrow a view of what good works mean. We must not think only of being good to the poor or of other forms of humanitarianism. After all, the good thief publicly proclaimed the innocence of Christ and equally, with deep humility, acknowledged his own guilt. These were already good works.

In any case, that the good thief did not have time to do further good works after his conversion could not affect the principle that good works are necessary, good works which the good thief would certainly have the will to do, had he had the opportunity. Paul wrote to the Galatians, "In doing good let us not fail. For in due time we shall reap, not failing. Therefore while we have time let us work good to all men, but especially to those who are of the household of the faith" (Gal. 6:9-10).


quote]
I only have one question for this thought Is there such a thing as a Good Thief? Jesus once said why callest thy me Good? there is none good save the Father. The only thing that separated. the one thief from the other thief is that one called out for mercy. the only thing that separates me from someone without Christ, my works can not make me good before the Father, Only that I have had the Blood of Jesus applied, and this alone separates me from the sinners.

Ro 12:3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself MORE HIGHLY than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
 
B

Baruch

Guest
#50
@Baruch

Was James addressing the church??
I admit that I had thought James was addressing a specific assembly, but upon reading James as a whole, I find it to be thus below;

To any assembly the letter was received by, yes. As in, if the shoe fits, apply it.

I admit that in the beginning, it was a broad address:

James 1: 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. ....

Although this topic was broached in the way that if it was practised, then this correction was given towards what was expected from any assembly..

James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

Still, it got to go into detail as if by addressing any assembly if they were doing this:

James 2: 14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

I must admit that as seemingly broad in addressing issues that this letter appears to be doing as this letter was sent out to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, it does seem specific and personal as if addressing any church for showing favoritism to the rich and abusing the poor by getting out of helping them in the manner by which the letter was addressing to correct "if" the church were hiding behind faith in God's Providence and yet by not parting from the bounty collected to meet the immediate needs of the poor, their faith in God's Providence was dead in the eyes of the poor as well as in the eyes of God.

So that is how I read James as a letter addressing any church aka the body of Christ.

If you have any further edification or correction, feel free to supply by His grace.
 
B

Baruch

Guest
#51
James is discussing Faith within the context of Salvation. He makes this abundantly clear when he asks, "Tell me brothers, suppose someone says he has faith but NOT works, CAN THAT FAITH SAVE HIM?" The rest of chapter 2 makes it abundantly clear what James' answer is.
Hey, brother. I know that we prophesy in part and know in part, but now that the King James Bible is here, we should know in full, but again, only of God causes the increase.

I know you are on top of your guard against being led by feelings, and I thank God for that, so let us go to the scriptures for confirmation about what you had just shared. Please note the emboldened underlined question as it begins that verse and in context.. ends the point of that question all regarding the faith in God's Providence inbetween. Are you not one of those that say don't take a verse out of context?

James 4:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Faith in salvation is not done for the sake of profit as in what can be gained in this world. It is faith in God's Providence that is being addressed as those issuers of that faith were getting out of helping the poor by saying"be warmed and be fiiled" as if by saying that to the poor, God will do it, and yet how doth that faith profit the poor when they are needful of the body for food and raiment? Will that kind of faith save the poor from starvation and the element? And yet, James went on to show that in the eyes of the poor, the issuers of that faith in God's Providence didn't have that faith at all, seeing how the poor had immediate needs whereas from the bounty the church has collected, the church did not.

Many Protestants believe that we are justified by "faith alone," but the expression "faith alone" only appears once in the Bible—in James 2:24—where it is rejected, as this thread states.This is a burr under the saddle for Protestants, for, if they wanted to use terms the way the Bible does, they would have to give up their chief slogan.
It is not a burr when you take the verse in context, brother.

When Apostolic Christians point this out, many Protestants attempt damage control by attacking the faith being discussed in James 2, saying it is an inferior or bad faith. Some do this by pejoratively labeling it "dead faith." They treat "faith without works is dead" (vv. 17, 26) as if it were a definition and say, "If faith does not produce works then it is dead faith. It is this dead faith that James says won’t save us."
No. It is dead faith in God's Providence in the eyes of the poor. Can that faith save the poor from starvation and the elements?

But reading the context shows that James is not using the phrase as a definition. He is not defining the term "dead faith." That term does not appear in the text. He is stating a fact, not offering a definition.
He is giving an example about how a church should show faith in God's Providence towards the poor.

I believe the rest of your quote is on a tangent that has no basis for continuing on my part to correct.

For someone whom does not like to take a singular verse out of context, can you show that the meaning of these verses below are not clear as if take out of context?

Romans 3:26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4: 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Romans 11:5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Titus 3:4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I see the glory of God in Jesus Christ as Saviour. Do you?
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#52
That is incorrect, we may be justified at a moment based on our actions or behavior, but not "saved" in the sense that God's view of us is inalterably favorable. Confession of faith at most can produce Justification at a moment's notice. Morevoer, your example of works is wrong. Works denote ACTION towards others. James gives us examples of works in Chapter 2. Your examples are qualitatively different, they are not action-oriented. Praying is not a good work. See James below.
Then is prayer a bad work? No. Would you prefer christians not pray at all? Maybe it is a neutral work.

You alleged that a good work is action towards others. Well God is a person and prayer is an action towards God, therefore prayer is a good work. It is a good work because it is something we do (action) towards God or another person (prayer for another person). Act 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the Word.

Prayer is vitally important to the life of the church and God's work so I think it is a good work.


James was speaking of a particular situation in which members were not doing their duty to the poor. James does not give a hard and fast list of what is a work and what is not. Everything we do is a work, and they either good or bad. Raising children is a good work, helping with the dishes is a good work. There are many.


John 3:16 - justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him may have eternal life. The word “believes” is “pisteuo” in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one’s life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses “pisteuo” (to obey) and “apitheo” (to disobey). The same word “pisteuo” is used in many other verses about “believing in Christ” such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom. 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their “faith alone” theology). To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.
Yes, justification is ongoing, based upon a continual state of belief as it says in John 3:16.

Yet, "today" is the day of salvation, not tomorrow (Luke 19:9).


James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.


I think the new Spirit and heart that God puts within us by the hearing of faith (Gal 3:2), and as it says below, the new spirit and heart of flesh surely results in a person doing good deeds.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
Php 2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in Heaven.

You said that there is no such thing as saving faith, but we find the term "your faith has saved you" coming out of Jesus's mouth:

Mat 9:22 But turning and seeing her, Jesus said, Daughter, be comforted; your faith has saved you. And the woman was saved from that hour.

Luk 7:49 And those reclining with Him began to say within themselves, Who is this who even forgives sins?
Luk 7:50 And He said to the woman, Your faith has saved you, go in peace.

Luk 8:48 And He said to her, Daughter, be comforted. Your faith has saved you; go in peace.

Luk 18:42 And Jesus said to him, Receive your sight! Your faith has saved you.

and the old favorite :

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,


 
Jan 8, 2009
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#53
Of course when Jesus said "your faith has saved you" there was an assocated action (eg reaching out to touch Jesus, or calling out to Jesus) associated with that faith. That is the only way we and Jesus when on earth could "see" faith is by the actions of a person. Aside from God who knows the heart, of course. However Jesus did not praise them for their action, he did not say , "because you reached out and touched the hem of my garment , you are saved", he said "your faith, has saved you". Jesus always pointed back to the underlying belief behind the person's action. So I think there is a thing as saving faith. Faith is simply something which causes the appropriate actions. If we have faith in a chair, we will sit on it. If we have faith in a car, we will drive it. And if we have faith in God, our life will show that, by prayer, by other actions etc.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#54
And the measure of faith leads to corresponding action. For example, Jesus said those who asked him to heal a person from a distance (like the centurion) had great faith. The greater faith was shown by the greater action. Likewise, when the Samaritan woman did not give up but pestered Jesus to save her (Matt 15:28), despite being told Jesus didn't come for her, and the disciples telling her to go away, Jesus said that was great faith too.
 
J

Jordan9

Guest
#55
I'm a believer in saved by faith. I don't like the idea of my actions being on par with Jesus'.
Works are evidence of the "New Heart" talked about so much in Scripture. They are an act of worship, pleasing to God, but they will not save us. They are a sign of someone who is dwelt in by the Holy Spirit and saved by faith.

No one can earn their way into Heaven.
 
May 3, 2009
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#56
First of all our work are works of the flesh which is murder deceit, adultery ect... so of course we cqanot depend on all work. However if we walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh as Paul tell us to then we can indeed overcome sin and do works wothry of righteousness. Furthermore The works spoken of in Ephesians that cannot save you are works devoid of faith. It is your own works outside of faith in Christ that cannot save you. However faith without works is just as impotent.

The works that Paul is referring to are "works of the Law" and "works of righteousness". Both refer to prescribed works of the Mosaic Law, not to good works as we think of them today. Under Mosaic Law for each type of offense, that is, sin, the Law prescribed a certain type of performance. Once the performance was done, the sinner was considered to be pardoned. Paul said that was no good, because the sinner was thinking of God as being obligated to forgive him as long as he did what the Law prescribed. Paul said any repentance must come from the heart rather than being done as if one were fufilling a contract or doing work for an employer who was then obigated to pay a wage.

You need to read Romans very closely. Paul is not talking about good works done out of love for God.

Amen
 
May 3, 2009
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#57
Wrong, the thief on the cross was saved like the rest of us, by grace through faith, not by faith alone nor grace alone, but by grace through faith.

Thief on the cross was promised he would go to Paradise, Sheol, place of righteous dead. This was a place for those who had no grievous sin prior to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ. It wasn't heaven. But more importantly, the Thief did a Good Work. While bound and crucified, he spoke out in defense of Christ to the other criminals who were mocking Christ. Given his situation that was as much as he could do.
 
May 3, 2009
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#58
OH ABSOLUTELY IT CAN AND DOES! Try reading 2Perer 1:20. Maybe meditation on 2Timothy 2:15 will help. The only way to understand Scripture is to let the Scripture interpret itself. The Bible is it's own self-contained commentary! I'll tell you what you do. Get a Strong's Bible Concordance and look up the word FAITH, read and study EVERY verse of Scripture where that word FAITH shows up. Then look up the word WORKS, read and study EVERY verse of Scripture where that word WORKS shows up. Line upon line and precept upon precept. Comparison and contrast. I GUARANTEE YOU that if you are a saved person with the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in you, you will come away with a solid understanding of the faith and works issue without anyone telling you anything! Why don’t you test it out to see whether or not these things be so?

Eh, think not. What you have just described is the reader coming up with his own interpretation. Bible is a book which is read. The reader interprets it according to his own capacity. That capacity is a product of culture, education, prior experiences, intelligence and ideological or theological predisposition.

Get real.

Amen.
 
May 3, 2009
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#59
Hey, brother. I know that we prophesy in part and know in part, but now that the King James Bible is here, we should know in full, but again, only of God causes the increase.

I know you are on top of your guard against being led by feelings, and I thank God for that, so let us go to the scriptures for confirmation about what you had just shared. Please note the emboldened underlined question as it begins that verse and in context.. ends the point of that question all regarding the faith in God's Providence inbetween. Are you not one of those that say don't take a verse out of context?

James 4:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Faith in salvation is not done for the sake of profit as in what can be gained in this world. It is faith in God's Providence that is being addressed as those issuers of that faith were getting out of helping the poor by saying"be warmed and be fiiled" as if by saying that to the poor, God will do it, and yet how doth that faith profit the poor when they are needful of the body for food and raiment? Will that kind of faith save the poor from starvation and the element? And yet, James went on to show that in the eyes of the poor, the issuers of that faith in God's Providence didn't have that faith at all, seeing how the poor had immediate needs whereas from the bounty the church has collected, the church did not.



It is not a burr when you take the verse in context, brother.



No. It is dead faith in God's Providence in the eyes of the poor. Can that faith save the poor from starvation and the elements?



He is giving an example about how a church should show faith in God's Providence towards the poor.

I believe the rest of your quote is on a tangent that has no basis for continuing on my part to correct.

For someone whom does not like to take a singular verse out of context, can you show that the meaning of these verses below are not clear as if take out of context?

Romans 3:26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4: 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Romans 11:5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Titus 3:4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I see the glory of God in Jesus Christ as Saviour. Do you?
Brother, you received counsel. Do with it as you will.

Peace be to You.

Amen.
 

BLC

Banned
Feb 28, 2009
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Thief on the cross was promised he would go to Paradise, Sheol, place of righteous dead. This was a place for those who had no grievous sin prior to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ. It wasn't heaven. But more importantly, the Thief did a Good Work. While bound and crucified, he spoke out in defense of Christ to the other criminals who were mocking Christ. Given his situation that was as much as he could do.
You are saying ... that Jesus made sure that the thief was going to do more than just believe but also make sure of his salvation by having that one good work to seal it up for himself. So my grandfather and other loved ones, that were led to the Lord, who believed by faith and were forgiven of their sins on their death bed, really did not make it because they were not able to show forth any good work? Is not believing a good work? You have taken away any hope that all of our loved ones, who did not show any fruit or good works (as you define those works) were really saved by grace and through faith. Believing in the cross and the blood of Christ was not enough to save them and justify them. According to you, they needed to produce some kind of fruit or good works to show that they were truly saved. According to you, the work of simply believing upon the name of Christ and confessing with their mouth the Lord Jesus was not sufficient for salvation and not enough to cleanse them from all sin. Confessing the Lord Jesus is saying, 'Lord, I believe'.

You are teaching a salvation and a gospel that is by grace through faith but maintained by works. Have you not read (Rom 11:5,6) that says, 'Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work'. And it says in (Rom 4:4-6), 'Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt'. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works'.

If you do not want to believe that, it is your choice. But don't respond with all your bull. Keep your bull to yourself and live that way if you want, but leave others alone.
 
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