Considering Moving to New Denomination

[shawntc]

I currently go to a Pentecostal church. In about four months I will be leaving home for university, and I am thinking of leaving the Pentecostal denomination when I do. I don't think that Pentecostalism is ungodly, however I've begun questioning whether or not some of the practices it's had are Scriptural.

For example, baptism in the Holy Spirit. Does that even happen outside of Pentecostal churches? For those who don't know, baptism in the Holy Spirit is when the Holy Spirit comes upon a person and basically "overflows" in their spirit. This happened in Acts 2 in the upper room, when 120 people were baptized in the Spirit with speaking in tongues. According to Pentecostalism that is a repeatable even that all believers should strive to seek. But I'm not so sure that really is repeatable. The events on Pentecost could just be intended for that one day, as a way of officially beginning the church's ministry.

Then there is being slain in the Spirit. That is almost certainly not Biblical. I did some reading and it first started in the late 1700s with the start of the Methodist movement. One person who saw when it was beginning to happen remarked that he had never read of such a thing in his Biblical studies. If it's unbiblical... why allow it?

I'm also rather uncomfortable in the worship setting. I'm a rather quiet, self-controlled person. But during worship, true to our reputation, we have a way of getting loud and energetic. People often start crying and get worked up. And as my pastor says, the Spirit begins to move. It's just very uncomfortable for me. I don't get caught up in the music or get emotional. It's just not how I am.

Due to all of this, I think it may be pertinent for me to find a new type of church to attend. I go to a Southern Baptist church on Wednesday evenings, which has broadened my perspective. I'd like to find a church that has the same basic beliefs as Pentecostal, but not as... rowdy, I guess is the word. I have nothing against people who are loud for God. But I just don't think that's the kind of setting I belong in.

Specifically, these kinds of beliefs are must-haves for me:

• Saved by grace only
• Trinity
• Inerrancy of the Bible
• Divinity of Jesus
• Literal Second Coming of Jesus, and Millenial Reign
• Preferably Arminian (as opposed to Calvinism)

I'm really thinking something like Baptist would work for me. What say you guys?

 

[Nancyer]

I belong to a Methodist Church, in So. California. I LOVE it there. We are a Bible based church and hold bible studies twice a week. Our pastor (a wonderful, caring, genuine man) believes his job is to give us the tools to help us understand and interpret scripture for ourselves because '' he can't go home with us after services, can't follow us around all week and answer every question as it comes up, we have to live our lives on our own." He does emphasize putting Jesus first in our lives, loving our neighbors as we love ourselves, and trying to be a blessing to someone every single day. While our services aren't what I would call rowdy, they also aren't solemn. Sometimes we applaud our music team. Our pastor can be quite funny. Today, being April 1, some of us put chocolate gold coins in the offering plate along with our offerings. He chuckled when the ushers handed the plates to him. But we also had a hand washing (most people wouldn't have been comfortable with a foot washing) and we pounded nails into a cross, and everyone was given a nail and palm branches to take home. No one has to sing or stand if they don't feel like it, no one looks down on you if you don't take communion, and we do a lot of outside ministry in this town. I pray you find a church that makes you feel as welcome and at home as mine has, wherever you are and whatever denomination you choose. God bless you. (remember, "God don't care what church you go to, long as you show up...")

 

[Crossfire]

I currently go to a Pentecostal church. In about four months I will be leaving home for university, and I am thinking of leaving the Pentecostal denomination when I do. I don't think that Pentecostalism is ungodly, however I've begun questioning whether or not some of the practices it's had are Scriptural.

For example, baptism in the Holy Spirit. Does that even happen outside of Pentecostal churches? For those who don't know, baptism in the Holy Spirit is when the Holy Spirit comes upon a person and basically "overflows" in their spirit. This happened in Acts 2 in the upper room, when 120 people were baptized in the Spirit with speaking in tongues. According to Pentecostalism that is a repeatable even that all believers should strive to seek. But I'm not so sure that really is repeatable. The events on Pentecost could just be intended for that one day, as a way of officially beginning the church's ministry.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is entirely scriptural. Upon salvation we receive a measure of the Holy Spirit which begins the sanctifying process,. However, Jesus told the the disciples to tarry until they recieved power from on high for ministry purposes. That's exactly what the baptism is, empowerment for ministry. Nothing will win a village over to Jesus like laying hands on the sick. Once they see that Jesus is real and their pagan gods are powerless, they are ready and willing to accept the Gospel. There is absolutely nothing in the bible that indicates the gifts have ever ceased.

And, Yes the Baptism of the Holy Spirit does occur outside of the Pentecostal circle. As a Continuationist, I know of and / or attended Spirit-filled Baptist, Methodist, Anglican and Nondenominational churches.

Then there is being slain in the Spirit. That is almost certainly not Biblical. I did some reading and it first started in the late 1700s with the start of the Methodist movement. One person who saw when it was beginning to happen remarked that he had never read of such a thing in his Biblical studies. If it's unbiblical... why allow it?

This usually occurs, but not always, in people who are dealing with something that is deeply embeded inside of them, typically depression, anxiety, hyper-tension, the list goes. Often these people pass out when they encounter the presence of God in powerful way. Actually, if your are truly familiar with church history, this is not uncommon in church and occured long before the start of Methodism.

I'm also rather uncomfortable in the worship setting. I'm a rather quiet, self-controlled person. But during worship, true to our reputation, we have a way of getting loud and energetic. People often start crying and get worked up. And as my pastor says, the Spirit begins to move. It's just very uncomfortable for me. I don't get caught up in the music or get emotional. It's just not how I am. Due to all of this, I think it may be pertinent for me to find a new type of church to attend. I go to a Southern Baptist church on Wednesday evenings, which has broadened my perspective. I'd like to find a church that has the same basic beliefs as Pentecostal, but not as... rowdy, I guess is the word. I have nothing against people who are loud for God. But I just don't think that's the kind of setting I belong in.

That's fine. In fact I'm the same way. While I grew up in Pentecostal circles, I saw a lot over the years that I questioned and I too left the Pentecostal church because of it. I then began to study church history because I believe that we can judge a doctrine according to it's fruits just as we can judge a christian by their fruits. As I studied the most spiritually powerful men in church history who had the greatest impact on the world for the Kingdom and studied their theology, various elements of Pentecostal doctrine were confirmed.

Specifically, these kinds of beliefs are must-haves for me:

Saved by grace only[/i]

- Read Ephesian chapters 1 & 2, you're not saved by grace only. While grace is a very important element in our salvation, it can not be accessed without faith. Thus both grace and faith are necessary for salvation - both being gifts of God given to us through the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[relientkchick_4]

i personally wouldnt suggest a baptist church because they are heavyly calvinistic, and i saw that you believe or so in the Arminin route, which i can completely understand, i "grew up" in a church that wasnt really "Emotional" and felt God had led me to a Pentecostal Bible College there were things that i didnt necessary agree with, like yourself

 

[jonathanbchristian]

don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

[Ugly]

Hi shawn
I am in agreement with you about leaving the pentecostal denomination. I was once pentecostal as well, and over the past few years i've been pulling out of it. And this year i pretty much left it behind. I feel more free in my faith now than i have in a long time. Less condemnation, less worry. And after seeing how heresy has crept into much of the charismatic movement, i'm glad to be free of that as well.

 

[shawntc]

I belong to a Methodist Church

I've heard that Pentecostal and Methodist have similar origins. Methodist seem to be a little more chilled out though. They're on my list of possibilities.

I saw a lot over the years that I questioned and I too left the Pentecostal church because of it. I then began to study church history because I believe that we can judge a doctrine according to it's fruits just as we can judge a christian by their fruits. As I studied the most spiritually powerful men in church history who had the greatest impact on the world for the Kingdom and studied their theology, various elements of Pentecostal doctrine were confirmed.

Heh, I may end up doing what you did. But that's an interesting way of looking at it. I'm more of an inductive thinker in this case.

While grace is a very important element in our salvation, it can not be accessed without faith

Sorry, that's what I meant. ^.^

i personally wouldnt suggest a baptist church because they are heavyly calvinistic, and i saw that you believe or so in the Arminin route, which i can completely understand, i "grew up" in a church that wasnt really "Emotional" and felt God had led me to a Pentecostal Bible College there were things that i didnt necessary agree with, like yourself

Wait Baptists are Calvinists? I didn't know that! I've been attending a Southern Baptist church nearly two years on Wednesdays and never knew that. So what kind of church do you attend now?

don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Hey dude, I checked out your profile and it seems you're heavily Pentecostal. I have no quarrel with you over that. Some are better suited for the energetic, notably supernatural setting that Pentecostalism brings than others. I feel I'm not well-suited for such a setting, however.

I am in agreement with you about leaving the pentecostal denomination. I was once pentecostal as well, and over the past few years i've been pulling out of it. And this year i pretty much left it behind. I feel more free in my faith now than i have in a long time. Less condemnation, less worry. And after seeing how heresy has crept into much of the charismatic movement, i'm glad to be free of that as well.

What type of church do you attend now?

 

[Crossfire]

Wait Baptists are Calvinists? I didn't know that! I've been attending a Southern Baptist church nearly two years on Wednesdays and never knew that. So what kind of church do you attend now?

It really depends on what kind of Baptist church you attend but yes, most Baptists are considered 'Neo-Calvinists' which means while they may not strictly hold to every point of Calvinism, their overall belief system is very Calvinisitc. Most Southern Baptists are actually die hard Calvinists. If you are seriously considering a Baptist church, then you most likely want to find a Freewill Baptist church because they are the least Calvinistic although there are still some elements. Oddly enough, many early Baptist sects were Arminian upon creation but later began to embrace certain elements of Calvinism as they were faced with serious persecution and even torture and death at the hands of early Calvinists. The only Calvinist that I tend to put any trust in are the Keswickians (Andrew Murray, W.E. Sangster, Dean Martin Lloyd).

By the way, I strongly reccommend that you stay away from any churches that embrace 'Free Grace Theology'. This is basically the belief that you are saved in sin to sin and it is a heresy. This is the message preached by Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, Tony Evans, Rick Warren and the like.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Most Southern Baptists are actually die hard Calvinists.

Interesting. Almost every Southern Baptist I've ever met, had a face of near-horror when they find out I believe God is the one who chooses the elect.

Mark 13:20
English Standard Version (ESV)
20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

 

[Crossfire]

Interesting. Almost every Southern Baptist I've ever met, had a face of near-horror when they find out I believe God is the one who chooses the elect.

Mark 13:20
English Standard Version (ESV)
20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

Most modern Southern Baptist circles have been infiltrated by 'Free Grace Theology' thus there is a civil war in a sense going on in the Baptist denomination. On one side you have Paul Washer, John McArthur and John Piper and on the other you have Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley and Tim Lahaye leading the charge. Basically it's a war between Calvinism and Antinomianism. Believe it or not, I personally would choose Calvinism any day between the two. Almost every Keswickian I have research I whole heartedly agree with.

 

[jimmydiggs]

To address the question Shawn.

I would start by avoiding liberal theology.

You will find this most in:
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America
The United Methodist Church of America
The United Church of Christ
The Presbyterian Church in the USA (PCUSA)
The Episcopal Church
The Disciples of Christ - Sometimes this one is spoken of as "Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)", it's the theologically liberal branch of the Restoration Movement.

There's others that could be put on the list, but these are the ones you should avoid if you want a church that will at the very least pay lip service to Sola Scriptura.


Others I would advise you to avoid because of bad theology:
Mormons
Jehovah's Witnesses
Seventh Day Adventists
Quackers
Roman Catholicism
Eastern Orthodox

I could put more, but I doubt that's a problem.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Most modern Southern Baptist circles have been infiltrated by 'Free Grace Theology' thus there is a civil war in a sense going on in the Baptist denomination. On one side you have Paul Washer, John McArthur and John Piper and on the other you have Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley and Tim Lahaye leading the charge. Basically it's a war between Calvinism and Antinomianism. Believe it or not, I personally would choose Calvinism any day between the two. Almost every Keswickian I have research I whole heartedly agree with.

As far as I understand, John McArthur and John Piper are not Southern Baptists.


The Southern Baptist Convention right now, is strongly anti-Calvinist.

Excerpt from the "John 3:16 Conference".

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MhSHoylMjk[/video]

The Southern Baptist church I currently attend, is strongly anti-Calvinist. They tolerate me, but really don't like that I believe God chooses the Elect.


Mark 13:20
English Standard Version (ESV)
20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

A lot of the "big whigs" in the SBC are anti-Calvinist. The most Calvinistic part of the SBC is Albert Mohler, Jr. and Southern Seminary in Louisville.

 

[hislastwalk]

I currently go to a Pentecostal church. In about four months I will be leaving home for university, and I am thinking of leaving the Pentecostal denomination when I do. I don't think that Pentecostalism is ungodly, however I've begun questioning whether or not some of the practices it's had are Scriptural.

For example, baptism in the Holy Spirit. Does that even happen outside of Pentecostal churches? For those who don't know, baptism in the Holy Spirit is when the Holy Spirit comes upon a person and basically "overflows" in their spirit. This happened in Acts 2 in the upper room, when 120 people were baptized in the Spirit with speaking in tongues. According to Pentecostalism that is a repeatable even that all believers should strive to seek. But I'm not so sure that really is repeatable. The events on Pentecost could just be intended for that one day, as a way of officially beginning the church's ministry.

Then there is being slain in the Spirit. That is almost certainly not Biblical. I did some reading and it first started in the late 1700s with the start of the Methodist movement. One person who saw when it was beginning to happen remarked that he had never read of such a thing in his Biblical studies. If it's unbiblical... why allow it?

I'm also rather uncomfortable in the worship setting. I'm a rather quiet, self-controlled person. But during worship, true to our reputation, we have a way of getting loud and energetic. People often start crying and get worked up. And as my pastor says, the Spirit begins to move. It's just very uncomfortable for me. I don't get caught up in the music or get emotional. It's just not how I am.

Due to all of this, I think it may be pertinent for me to find a new type of church to attend. I go to a Southern Baptist church on Wednesday evenings, which has broadened my perspective. I'd like to find a church that has the same basic beliefs as Pentecostal, but not as... rowdy, I guess is the word. I have nothing against people who are loud for God. But I just don't think that's the kind of setting I belong in.

Specifically, these kinds of beliefs are must-haves for me:

• Saved by grace only
• Trinity
• Inerrancy of the Bible
• Divinity of Jesus
• Literal Second Coming of Jesus, and Millenial Reign
• Preferably Arminian (as opposed to Calvinism)

I'm really thinking something like Baptist would work for me. What say you guys?

I've left the Pentecostal denomination a long time ago when God led me... (Church of God specifically) I don't know about all Pentecostals, but most (the Pentecostal churches I been too) preach repentance before salvation.. which is not scriptural. I believe saved by grace only. Our works do not determine our blessings, salvation, etc.. (there is something about [TRULY] understanding grace that sets a person free. IDK why people think I preach a 'license to sin' gospel.. but even Paul was accused of that, so I'm good. if you'd like, message me.

 

[shawntc]

So are Southern Baptists Calvinist or aren't they? I'm getting conflicting answers. And how about plain old Baptist? I'm interested in Free Will Baptist, since they seem to suit my beliefs. I understand that individual sovereignty is important in Baptist belief, which means that each church may very well have slightly different beliefs. Some Baptist church may be Calvinist while others are Arminian.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America
The United Methodist Church of America

Really? Methodists and Lutherans have liberal theology too?

See, I'm trying to find a type of church that has the more conservative leanings that I've had in my time as a Christian. I dunno if specifics help or not but I've always been Assemblies of God. Running through the list of inadvisable or unfitting church types the only two that seem to fit for me are either Anglican or Baptist, if it can be found they are Arminian.

And just in case anybody is wondering, if you have beliefs that disagree with mine, don't worry, I'm not looking down on you. This isn't the kind of thread for that and frankly, I'm not the sort to do that.

 

[Siberian_Khatru]

shawn, go with what you feel convicted to do. Religion is generally dogmatic, but even "non-denominational" people have their own personal dogma - their own methods of praise, worship; practice - if you really think on it. Explore with an open mind and open heart, and pray for what you're seeking.

 

[PopClick]

I'm more of an inductive thinker in this case.

My only piece of advice is to "Lean not on your own understanding". If there is something you're not sure of, in ANY church or sermon, ask God to show you what truth is. If you think the baptism of the Holy Spirit is just for "back then", if you think one thing or another, if I think one thing or another... it doesn't matter. That's our own understanding. Only God's opinion matters here. Ask Him to guide you and show you what truth is. Luke 11:13 was a good eye-opener for me.

Luke 11:13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

 

[iraasuup]

I don't think it matters what the 'label' of the denomination is necessarily.

I have found I could go to any church, and listen to the teaching and 'question' something. That's where discernment comes into play.

We're not just supposed to take everything spoken over the pulpit as 'true gospel'. We need to work it out for ourselves. Go home, open Gods word, pray and seek out the revelation for yourself. Listen to where God is leading you personally.

I don't believe there is any 'perfect' church.

My take on the matter is go where you feel comfortable. As long as the teaching and core beliefs aren't clearly heretical then you should be fine.

For example, let's say a person who speaks in tongues, goes to a church where that isn't done. Does that mean that person can't worship there? I don't believe so. Maybe the church itself doesn't publicly practice or encourage it, but what's stopping that person from praying in tongues in their own quiet time at home, or even quietly to themselves at church? This is just an example.

I believe that first and foremost you must be comfortable with the churches general statement of faith, and core belief system, and that the teaching must in now way be against scripture... and by that I don't mean those 'if-y controversial things that at the end of the day are matters of personal opinion', I mean that what is being taught clearly lines up with the basic, fundamental beliefs of Christian faith and the salvation message (I believe you mentioned earlier those that were essential to you).

If you find a church that meets those things, then I don't think it's a big deal what they call themselves. You may also have to make a concious decision to overlook other things such as 'style of music, style of worship, how often they partake in communion, etc'. If you can do that, you will find a place where you are comfortable.

Although not ESSENTIAL, I also believe a place where you can find people who you connect with is an important factor to consider.

I speak from experience. I've been to churches in the past where I wasn't 1million percent completely happy, I didn't fit into the 'boxes' provided by the church for ministries and connecting people, I didn't have many friends there, I couldnt attend home group bible studies, I didn't particularly love the music or worship style, but it was the best church I'd been to as far as sound, biblical teaching, and so I stayed. I have been to other churches where the people are friendly, and they have a million different ministries and they involve everyone in everything, and the music is great and the atmosphere is generally fantastic, but elements of the teaching or the practices they condoned were somewhat shady... and so I coudln't stay.

So, you see you will never find a 'perfect' church. You need to work out what's important, and make a choice to overlook the minor, unimportant things. It's kind of like buying a car.. well I'd LIKE air conditioning, power steering, drink holders and iPod connectivity, but I can live without them provided the car starts everytime, is mechanically sound, and gets me to where I am going.

Good luck!

 

[Ugly]

What type of church do you attend now?

Do to some health issues i'm currently not going. The last two churches i attended was a baptist, and a non-denom. Which pretty much sums me up, i'm a non-denominational baptist, haha. (figure that one out, haha)

 

[Crossfire]

As far as I understand, John McArthur and John Piper are not Southern Baptists.


The Southern Baptist Convention right now, is strongly anti-Calvinist.

Excerpt from the "John 3:16 Conference".

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MhSHoylMjk[/video]

The Southern Baptist church I currently attend, is strongly anti-Calvinist. They tolerate me, but really don't like that I believe God chooses the Elect.


Mark 13:20
English Standard Version (ESV)
20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

A lot of the "big whigs" in the SBC are anti-Calvinist. The most Calvinistic part of the SBC is Albert Mohler, Jr. and Southern Seminary in Louisville.

As I said, their is a bit of a civil war going on in the denomination. From my understanding, Paul Washer is a devote ordained Southern Baptist attempting bring the denomination back toward Calvinism. Many Southern Baptists have already abandoned the Calvinist camp in favor of the Free Grace camp. I guess it really depends on the region. Every Southern Baptist that I have met were staunch Calvinists.

The funny thing about Baptist churches is that they have no leadership structure beyond their local pastor thus you could have 20 baptists churches under one banner and most of them might believe somewhat different. "Bapticostal", a baptist / pentecostal hybrid, seems to be gaining popularity these days.

 

[Crossfire]

While I had several friends and coworkers who professed to be Baptist, seldom could two of them actually talk about the bible without some sort of argument breaking out which is why early in my salvation I avoided the denomination altogether. While I have researched the denomination, there are so many different variations of Baptist that it is hard to make any sense of it.