IS LAW AND GRACE OPPOSITES?
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I asked specifically how did He keep the sabbath? Jesus taught at the synagogue on the sabbath day because it was a CUSTOM. The very first mention of the sabbath and Jesus is of Him and His disciples PICKING CORN IN THE FIELD. Something Israel was told NOT to do in Exodus 16. Or again have we not read that the priests of the temple PROFANE the sabbath and are BLAMELESS?
John 9:4
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
How did Jesus keep the sabbath?
Romans 14:9
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
It is a MEMORIAL. His body was broken for us! His blood was spilled for us! And as often as we eat THAT bread and drink THAT wine, we ALL DO SHOW THAT THE LORD DIED till He comes for you and for me. All who passes through that door are Holy.
L
The Law comes first then grace. God gave to Adam & Eve a Law and as a result of disobedience we have grace. We need grace because without it we die. The death of Christ makes grace possible. If there is no Law then there would be no grace, the fact that we have grace shows that God's Law the 10 commandments is still binding.
They ate the corn because they hungered.
The Man collecting sticks was doing his work on the Sabbath.
If sin is a tresspass of the Law, and Yahshua the Messiah had no sin then it is quite clear he kept the Sabbath perfectly, how Yahvah God wanted it to be kept, and not by the traditions of men.
The Pharisees were making it a burden by adding their own commandments to it.
They had a man believe he could not carry his bed on the Sabbath.
Yahshua the Messiah taught Yahvah God's ways not giving way to traditions of men.
I once heard that some people would tie items to themselves so that they would not break the Sabbath by carrying anything....
You can see that they would point out things to condemn people and exalt themselves.....
They were not teaching out of love for ALmighty Yahvah God, they were teaching out of love for themselves and worldly praise and benefits.....
Yahshua the Messiah taught because of his love of his Father Yahvah God and the lost souls due to the teaching of men.
So it was ok because Jesus was hungry but for the poor man collecting sticks? He didn't die because he broke the sabbath, he died because he was WITHOUT THE CAMP. Like us all.
Hebrews 13:10-13
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Sin is the transgression of the law, but the law was added BECAUSE of transgression.
Hebrews 13:10-13
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Sin is the transgression of the law, but the law was added BECAUSE of transgression.
He was disobedient and was stoned to death.
He broke the Sabbath commandment.
He was working on the Sabbath.
Those days did not consist of a nine to five working hours so to speak, this was part of his work and he did it on the Sabbath.
Something he could of done before or after the Sabbath, he was disobedient of the Commandments.
L
Numbers 15:32-35
(32) And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
(33) And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
(34) And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
(35) And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Are you going to question the judgement of God?
You are trying to justify his actions.
None of us know the full event of that day, remember that Almighty Yahvah God would of known why he was working, and from this gave the order to stone him.
Let us not question anything that our Yahvah God does for he is above all with all authority.
And what he does he does for good.
None of us know the full event of that day, remember that Almighty Yahvah God would of known why he was working, and from this gave the order to stone him.
Let us not question anything that our Yahvah God does for he is above all with all authority.
And what he does he does for good.
When we believe the gospel unto salvation, that is obedience and it is a work of faith with promise (Eph 1:13). When we hear the word of God we mix faith with the word through obedience so that it will profit us (Heb 4:2) and give us understanding (Prov 4:5-7). To walk in wisdom (Col 4:5) and in the Spirit (Gal 5:16) is when we apply the word to our situations and circumstances of life that is revealed to us by the Spirit in the plan of God. The just shall live by faith (Rom 5:1) and walk by faith in the promises of God (2Pt 1:4). The law is not against the promises of God but has no power to give the believer life or the ability to keep them (Gal 3:21), so God has given us the Spirit to guide us in the truth of those promises.
When we are led by the Spirit we obey that leading through faith and trust in the promises of God. We don't give place to the flesh that walks by sight and is contrary to the Spirit (Gal 5:17). Faith sows to the Spirit (Gal 6:7,8) and trusts God for the life of the results. Abraham got a promise from God, he believed the promise and it was put on his account for righteousness (Gal 3:5,6) and he staggered not at that promise through unbelief but was strong in faith (Rom 4:20). We are to be strong in faith, strong in grace (2Tim 2:1), strong in the Lord and in the power of His might (Eph 6:10). The law can not provide the strength we need because it is weak through the flesh (Rom 8:3). We are given exceedingly great and precious promises so that we might escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Through these promises (not through the works of the law) we are partakers of God's divine nature (2Pt 1:4-12)...
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
Legalism becomes a practice of obedience to the law when the law is legislated in place of the word and the Spirit that we are to be led by under the covenant of grace and the promises of God.
When we are led by the Spirit we obey that leading through faith and trust in the promises of God. We don't give place to the flesh that walks by sight and is contrary to the Spirit (Gal 5:17). Faith sows to the Spirit (Gal 6:7,8) and trusts God for the life of the results. Abraham got a promise from God, he believed the promise and it was put on his account for righteousness (Gal 3:5,6) and he staggered not at that promise through unbelief but was strong in faith (Rom 4:20). We are to be strong in faith, strong in grace (2Tim 2:1), strong in the Lord and in the power of His might (Eph 6:10). The law can not provide the strength we need because it is weak through the flesh (Rom 8:3). We are given exceedingly great and precious promises so that we might escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Through these promises (not through the works of the law) we are partakers of God's divine nature (2Pt 1:4-12)...
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
Legalism becomes a practice of obedience to the law when the law is legislated in place of the word and the Spirit that we are to be led by under the covenant of grace and the promises of God.
Womanlovestexas says:[quote=In the New Testament we have this thing called the Torah. The Pharisees and Saducees were so concerned about breaking the commandments that they made EXTRA laws, called fences, that they would put around the Laws of God, and what they did was “God said here is the boundaries.” The RELIGIOUS LEADERS created all these EXTRA laws to keep God’s people from breaking God’s own law. That was the Pharisee’s and Sadducee’s instructions. This is what is called “LEGALISM”. They put their laws above and beyond the laws God and they said you can’t come to God because God will not accept you unless you keep our laws on top of His laws.]
No I actually am saying the New Testament writers had the TORAH, the first five books of the Old Testament. The Pharisees and Sadducees did not write the Torah, but added to God's instructions *note I never say they are Moses instructions) with their oral laws which are recorded in the Talmud. Jesus railed them, called them hypocrites in front of all their peers, and He was amazing and if He were here today I would use the word "refreshing". He pointed to religion as caring out the simple things of God and making it into something too hard to bear. In my personal resting on the Sabbath, the spiritual insights that come from this is humbling. I think we are robbing ourselves of blessings that God wants His children to have when we do not take full benefit of His instructions for living.
Notice again "Instructions for living" is not instructions for salvation!!!!
HalleluYAH.
Shalom,
~Janet
No I actually am saying the New Testament writers had the TORAH, the first five books of the Old Testament. The Pharisees and Sadducees did not write the Torah, but added to God's instructions *note I never say they are Moses instructions) with their oral laws which are recorded in the Talmud. Jesus railed them, called them hypocrites in front of all their peers, and He was amazing and if He were here today I would use the word "refreshing". He pointed to religion as caring out the simple things of God and making it into something too hard to bear. In my personal resting on the Sabbath, the spiritual insights that come from this is humbling. I think we are robbing ourselves of blessings that God wants His children to have when we do not take full benefit of His instructions for living.
Notice again "Instructions for living" is not instructions for salvation!!!!
HalleluYAH.
Shalom,
~Janet
T
If you believe this, I am truly concerned for you! Jesus Christ made salvation sure for His people, not just possible.
Please, don't rely on your repentance to save you. Trust fully in Christ as your everything, your all in all. Our works are nothing but filthy rags in God's sight. Repentance and good works flow from our salvation by the power of the Holy Spirit within us, and out of our love to God, but not to make ourselves acceptable to Him.
I say this with all due respect, as is proper for a woman as full of years as yourself. I would never disrespect my elders, as I know they have much more wisdom than I.
I may pick on WomanLovesTX, she's only like my older sister
. But you are like a matriarch of these forums.
God bless.
Tom
Please, don't rely on your repentance to save you. Trust fully in Christ as your everything, your all in all. Our works are nothing but filthy rags in God's sight. Repentance and good works flow from our salvation by the power of the Holy Spirit within us, and out of our love to God, but not to make ourselves acceptable to Him.
I say this with all due respect, as is proper for a woman as full of years as yourself. I would never disrespect my elders, as I know they have much more wisdom than I.
I may pick on WomanLovesTX, she's only like my older sister
. But you are like a matriarch of these forums.God bless.
Tom
Tom, what you say is true, but untrue in the balance. By that I mean that when faith is talked of without any of the rest of scripture then it becomes something that is not true. Faith must lead us to doing, to works. You know this, and I do too, but many read what we say. When you stop with faith it is misleading. Faith without works is dead.
The entire OT scripture centers on law, but it says that faith is needed; Hebrews thought process was so they didn’t think or talk in the abstract, they didn’t think of thoughts and emotion except through the doing. The word love in Hebrew can be translated as bringing gifts. To our minds, we don’t think of the works to explain love. The NT reflects our way of thinking; it talks a lot of the thoughts and emotion, not so much about the need to do.
The Jews whose scripture was the OT sometimes used works as enough, and that wasn’t what their scripture said, it was their interpretation. In the same way, it is emphasized to us that it takes faith, we are saved by grace. Paul got pretty worked up when he thought they taught works without faith, or asked gentiles to use ceremonial law in the wrong way. But if we go on about works not being right, not worth doing, we are just as out of balance as the people who depended on works.
I love it that you give me credit for living so long! It has been a fun, wonderful trip I have had on this earth. But I am a strong woman, please just tell me as you think it is. We are looking for truth, it comes first.
The entire OT scripture centers on law, but it says that faith is needed; Hebrews thought process was so they didn’t think or talk in the abstract, they didn’t think of thoughts and emotion except through the doing. The word love in Hebrew can be translated as bringing gifts. To our minds, we don’t think of the works to explain love. The NT reflects our way of thinking; it talks a lot of the thoughts and emotion, not so much about the need to do.
The Jews whose scripture was the OT sometimes used works as enough, and that wasn’t what their scripture said, it was their interpretation. In the same way, it is emphasized to us that it takes faith, we are saved by grace. Paul got pretty worked up when he thought they taught works without faith, or asked gentiles to use ceremonial law in the wrong way. But if we go on about works not being right, not worth doing, we are just as out of balance as the people who depended on works.
I love it that you give me credit for living so long! It has been a fun, wonderful trip I have had on this earth. But I am a strong woman, please just tell me as you think it is. We are looking for truth, it comes first.
Grace and disobedience are opposites.
The Law shows you your disobedience or your obedience. The Law is the opposite of fleshly desires.
Those who are saved by the Lord Jesus Christ know that without Him they could not obey the Law. Even with Him our flesh wanders away from time to time. The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
The Law shows you your disobedience or your obedience. The Law is the opposite of fleshly desires.
Those who are saved by the Lord Jesus Christ know that without Him they could not obey the Law. Even with Him our flesh wanders away from time to time. The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
T
Hi RedTent,
I agree that a Christian should always be striving to live a holy life. We must strive to put to death any sin that we find in ourselves. I have always maintained that people who call themselves Christians, and yet continue to live a sinful life, are just fooling themselves. They prove by their lack of repentance and holiness of life that they have never truly been saved in the first place. No saved person could be comfortable living in sin since the Holy Spirit now indwells us. But what I do disagree with is people who think that they must make themselves healthy first before calling the Physician. They think that their repentance and good works will impress God enough to save them. When we realize that we are sinners under God's wrath, we will call out to God for mercy and repent of our sins. But afterwards, as we learn what God's word teaches, we realize that if God did not move in our life first, we would not even have the desire to repent. I guess it boils down to seeing things from two perspectives, God's perspective and ours. When we look at things from God's perspective, we see that He is the one responsible for drawing us to Himself and saving us. From our perspective we are commanded to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and to turn from our sins and live a sanctified life. But afterwards, we realize that all glory goes to Him and put no trust in our repentance and works, although works and repentance will naturally follow and prove that we have been saved. Faith without works is indeed dead. But working in order to receive God's grace is flat out wrong. But , sadly, there are many who teach that very thing. When an unsaved person is told that they are lost and under God's wrath, all the know is that they must call out to God for mercy and put their trust in Jesus Christ. Froim their perspective it looks like something they have done. But when they begin to study the Bible, they see that it was all of God's grace.
God bless, my friend.
Tom
I agree that a Christian should always be striving to live a holy life. We must strive to put to death any sin that we find in ourselves. I have always maintained that people who call themselves Christians, and yet continue to live a sinful life, are just fooling themselves. They prove by their lack of repentance and holiness of life that they have never truly been saved in the first place. No saved person could be comfortable living in sin since the Holy Spirit now indwells us. But what I do disagree with is people who think that they must make themselves healthy first before calling the Physician. They think that their repentance and good works will impress God enough to save them. When we realize that we are sinners under God's wrath, we will call out to God for mercy and repent of our sins. But afterwards, as we learn what God's word teaches, we realize that if God did not move in our life first, we would not even have the desire to repent. I guess it boils down to seeing things from two perspectives, God's perspective and ours. When we look at things from God's perspective, we see that He is the one responsible for drawing us to Himself and saving us. From our perspective we are commanded to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and to turn from our sins and live a sanctified life. But afterwards, we realize that all glory goes to Him and put no trust in our repentance and works, although works and repentance will naturally follow and prove that we have been saved. Faith without works is indeed dead. But working in order to receive God's grace is flat out wrong. But , sadly, there are many who teach that very thing. When an unsaved person is told that they are lost and under God's wrath, all the know is that they must call out to God for mercy and put their trust in Jesus Christ. Froim their perspective it looks like something they have done. But when they begin to study the Bible, they see that it was all of God's grace.
God bless, my friend.
Tom
There is a difference, I believe, between the work that the people did in Exodus 16 and the "work" that Christ did on the Sabbath. One was a steady, daily labor which occupied the entirety of the day; the other was taking food off a stalk to eat. If you worked a vineyard, then you shouldn't work it on the Sabbath. If you passed through a vineyard and picked some grapes from a vine because you were hungry, then that's as much work as it is to pick some grapes up off a plate and eat them. It's not work. haha It may have been considered work to the man-made laws which were a human interpretation of God's Law. I believe there were two laws in the New Testament - God's Law and Man's Law. Whenever "the Law" is condemned I believe it was Man's Law - not God's.
I think that if Christ broke any law of God's then he was not the perfect sacrifice. He came to be perfect for us, because we couldn't be. The Law shows us our sin only if we transgress it. The thing is that every human has transgressed it. But Christ never has. How could the Law show Christ his sin? And how could it show anyone their sin if they never transgressed it? So it follows that Christ never transgressed the Law. Otherwise he would not be the perfect, blameless sacrifice. So if we want to understand how the Law was to be obeyed then as well as today, then we should look at how Christ observed it.
Christ said that he was Lord of the Sabbath. I think this gives him the right to say how it should be obeyed. And if he could heal on the Sabbath by simply touching someone, if he said people could be circumcised on the Sabbath without breaking it, etc. then his word stands.
As an aside, Christ did not obtain righteousness by the Law. But I believe he preserved his righteousness by not transgressing it and thereby proving that he was God.
I think that if Christ broke any law of God's then he was not the perfect sacrifice. He came to be perfect for us, because we couldn't be. The Law shows us our sin only if we transgress it. The thing is that every human has transgressed it. But Christ never has. How could the Law show Christ his sin? And how could it show anyone their sin if they never transgressed it? So it follows that Christ never transgressed the Law. Otherwise he would not be the perfect, blameless sacrifice. So if we want to understand how the Law was to be obeyed then as well as today, then we should look at how Christ observed it.
Christ said that he was Lord of the Sabbath. I think this gives him the right to say how it should be obeyed. And if he could heal on the Sabbath by simply touching someone, if he said people could be circumcised on the Sabbath without breaking it, etc. then his word stands.
As an aside, Christ did not obtain righteousness by the Law. But I believe he preserved his righteousness by not transgressing it and thereby proving that he was God.