Gays at Prom?!

[bonnie2]

Do also remember that God has commanded people to do a lot of things in Leviticus, such as not eating shellfish (shrimp, lobster, crab, and a lot of seafood) or wearing clothes of mixed fiber. If you're going to take homosexuality literally in Leviticus, you have to take the rest seriously too.
I don't think the Biible is divinely inspired any more than the hundreds of other holy books written in human history. I don't need to think the Bible is divinely inspired to see the good messages in it, and that allows me also to see the bad messages in the Bible also. 'Love one another as I have loved you' is a powerful and beautiful message, and much good would come to the world if people followed this more closely. I don't need to be religious to see that.
I'm curious o you follow every word written in the Bible? If not, how do you choose which to follow and which not to?

I think the Old Testament laws were kind of like rules for just Israel that do not apply anymore. Sure, I believe them.. as true history. I believe every word of the Bible, but Jesus' death put an end to the Old Testament law. He brought a new law, the law of grace and love. Romans explains it a lot. Here's Paul speaking about the Jews, who were still clinging to the Old Testament law, trying to earn their way to Heaven by it:

Romans 10:1-12 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. (2) For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. (3) For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. (4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (5) For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. (6) But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) (7) or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). (8) But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); (9) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (11) For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." (12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

 

[Alex314]

Hm, you are probably right about natural attractions to people of the same gender.
I'm curious, where do you see that the Bible says that about relieving oneself..? I have never found it, but I do believe that we are not to do that because of more general commands about lust and sex outside of marriage.

Ah, it appears this time I was wrong. I thought that the verses in Genesis 38: 8-10 were condemning masturbation, but that appears to be false
"Dont spill your seed on the ground", is this a biblical reference against masterbation? - Yahoo! Answers
Similarly, this link taught me that there are no explicit biblical warnings against masturbation.
Bible.com
The entire 'do not masturbate' think thus seems to be a concept used by many religious preachers, but that's not a position that is very firmly supported by the bible it seems. It all looks very convoluted to me.

Luke 9:23 And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

I believe that God's way is better. It's hard but there is great joy in denying one's self and misery in going my own way. I know this from experience. I believe it would be the same way for a homosexual.

It's odd that I have been told often that I quote the Bible out of context, and now it seems it's my turn to tell the same to you
Luke 21-27
Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone. 22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.” 23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

As we can see here, that bit about denying oneself does not seem in any way to be about denying one's desires or feelings, but rather more about denying their life, their guarantee of survival. Not sure if I'm making much sense here, I hope you understand my point.
As for being miserable and all that, I really do not like the idea of people who live miserably according to God's will in order to gain eternal happiness in paradise in the afterlife, because to me, there is no afterlife. I'm not going to call people names or ban them from doing that, I just think it's a terrible waste is all.

I suppose I should add a touch of taosit to my description, because of what I've read seems to resonante well with how people view listening to themselves and leading to misery, vs listening to God and having happiness.
Principles
Taoist Ethics
Especially this bit :Taoism: Thoughts on "Wu-wei"
Essentially, people have conscious minds who seek to do certain things or accomplish certain goals, such as being happy all the time, being rich, etc etc etc. Often, the conscious mind is deaf or blind to the natural order of things, and goes squarely against it. This can very often lead to unhappiness, or to struggle. However, if one relaxes one's conscious mind and 'goes with the flow', things become much easier and get done much better. In short, letting go of our consciousness and letting God take the direction of our lives may just be that we stop thinking and start listening to the natural order.

 

[Alex314]

I disagree that it brings tension and anguish. If you stop for only a short time it does but it gets easier and there is great freedom in not having to do thatl. I can't help feeling that it would be the same way for gay people even though I've never experienced that.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Denying one's sexual nature until it disappears?

I think the Old Testament laws were kind of like rules for just Israel that do not apply anymore. Sure, I believe them.. as true history. I believe every word of the Bible, but Jesus' death put an end to the Old Testament law. He brought a new law, the law of grace and love. Romans explains it a lot. Here's Paul speaking about the Jews, who were still clinging to the Old Testament law, trying to earn their way to Heaven by it:

Romans 10:1-12 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. (2) For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. (3) For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. (4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (5) For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. (6) But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) (7) or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). (8) But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); (9) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (11) For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." (12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

However, Jesus said in Matthew 5 :17-18, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished"
which can lend itself to confusion. Did Jesus abolish the old laws or not? That would depend on one's interpretation.
Some say people are saved by faith alone, and that work without faith is pointless (for God), while others say that faith without work is dead. Again, it's all up to personal interpretation.
I was using the OT example just to show how a literal interpretation is ridiculous, and how a non-literal interpretation is thus subjective and one can cherry-pick whatever value one wishes to follow or not from the book.

 

[bonnie2]

It's odd that I have been told often that I quote the Bible out of context, and now it seems it's my turn to tell the same to you
Luke 21-27
Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone. 22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.” 23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

As we can see here, that bit about denying oneself does not seem in any way to be about denying one's desires or feelings, but rather more about denying their life, their guarantee of survival. Not sure if I'm making much sense here, I hope you understand my point.

Sorry but I think you are wrong here. Jesus doesn't call people to die literally. We "die to ourselves", our natural sin nature, going with the flow as you put it. We are called to go AGAINST the flow. Sure it's hard sometimes but it does get easier. I don't know how to help you understand that unless you've experienced it... for instance, experienced denying your sexual nature because you believe it's obedience to God. You'd see that it does get easier and its true freedom not to be in bondage to that. It's slavery.. when you get the urge you have to do it.. and it's truly amazing to be able to say no and to be serving God instead.

 

[bonnie2]

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; (15) and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.


Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

 

[bonnie2]

However, Jesus said in Matthew 5 :17-18, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished"
which can lend itself to confusion. Did Jesus abolish the old laws or not? That would depend on one's interpretation.
Some say people are saved by faith alone, and that work without faith is pointless (for God), while others say that faith without work is dead. Again, it's all up to personal interpretation.
I was using the OT example just to show how a literal interpretation is ridiculous, and how a non-literal interpretation is thus subjective and one can cherry-pick whatever value one wishes to follow or not from the book.

This is a good question and I'm trying to figure it out/ figure out how to explain it myself. I mean, I know what I believe, but I'm trying to figure out why the O.T. laws don't all apply. Yet I know that every word in the Bible is inspired.
Here's a quote from an article, but it doesn't really explain it exactly.

Unlike the Old Covenant, which required obedience only to the letter of the Law, the
New Covenant is based on obedience to the spiritual intent of the Law. For this reason, Christ
came as the spiritual Lawgiver to amplify and magnify the laws of God: “The LORD is well
pleased for His righteousness’ sake; He will magnify the Law and make it glorious” (Isa. 42:21).
The Gospel accounts of Jesus’ life and ministry reveal that God requires obedience to His commandments not only in the letter of the Law, but in the spirit of the Law as well. Throughout His
ministry, Jesus taught repentance from sin—which is clearly defined as the transgression of the
laws of God (I John 3:4). 2
In spite of Jesus’ clear teachings which magnify the laws and commandments of God,
most professing Christians have been taught that Christ came to abolish the laws of God. Jesus,
however, emphatically denounced this idea: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the
Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until
the heaven and the earth shall pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the
Law until everything has been fulfilled” (Matt. 5:17-18)

Here's a link to the full article:
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_fullfilllaw.pdf

This wasn't super helpful so I'm still looking.

 

[bonnie2]

Basically, I was wrong to say that Jesus brought a "new" law of love and grace. He came to fulfill the law and so now we follow the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. We're not bound to all the individual laws as Israel was in O.T. times, but we do right.. following what we know God wants us to do (the spirit of the O.T. laws and all the principles in the N.T.) because He died for us. We're in debt, but most of all because we love Him, and when you love someone you want to please them. Does that make sense?

 

[Alex314]

Sorry but I think you are wrong here. Jesus doesn't call people to die literally. We "die to ourselves", our natural sin nature, going with the flow as you put it. We are called to go AGAINST the flow. Sure it's hard sometimes but it does get easier. I don't know how to help you understand that unless you've experienced it... for instance, experienced denying your sexual nature because you believe it's obedience to God. You'd see that it does get easier and its true freedom not to be in bondage to that. It's slavery.. when you get the urge you have to do it.. and it's truly amazing to be able to say no and to be serving God instead.

I posted that in response to your interpretation of Luke 9:23 ; "And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." that the 'deny himself' bit was in reference to personal longing or our sinful nature. Maybe I misunderstood you, but my long paragraph was to show that no, Jesus was not talking about sinful nature.

As for the going with/against the flow, I probably didn't explain myself well. I didn't mean to try to replace the christian teachings with the Taoist philosophy, but merely to draw a parallel, to show that perhaps, when we try to follow our own way, our conscious mind contradicts nature/God, and we become happy by letting ourselves 'lose control' if you wish, take the back seat and either follow what feels natural or let Jesus be the copilot. Do remember to separate how the Taoist philosophy views what is natural as opposed to how the Christian philosophy views what is natural. Let's keep them separate for this argument, ok? Let's just place them side by side to compare.

As per the bondage thing, well I don't think it's a bondage to want to eat. I agree that NEEDING food and wanting to eat it every waking minute is definitely not healthy, but then again, not eating at all is pretty harmful. One could survive on a liquid diet for a long while. Similar with sex, NEEDING i every waking moment is definitely not good, but with moderation and restraint, one can learn to be well balanced.

This is a good question and I'm trying to figure it out/ figure out how to explain it myself. I mean, I know what I believe, but I'm trying to figure out why the O.T. laws don't all apply. Yet I know that every word in the Bible is inspired.
Here's a quote from an article, but it doesn't really explain it exactly.

Unlike the Old Covenant, which required obedience only to the letter of the Law, the
New Covenant is based on obedience to the spiritual intent of the Law. For this reason, Christ
came as the spiritual Lawgiver to amplify and magnify the laws of God: “The LORD is well
pleased for His righteousness’ sake; He will magnify the Law and make it glorious” (Isa. 42:21).
The Gospel accounts of Jesus’ life and ministry reveal that God requires obedience to His commandments not only in the letter of the Law, but in the spirit of the Law as well. Throughout His
ministry, Jesus taught repentance from sin—which is clearly defined as the transgression of the
laws of God (I John 3:4). 2
In spite of Jesus’ clear teachings which magnify the laws and commandments of God,
most professing Christians have been taught that Christ came to abolish the laws of God. Jesus,
however, emphatically denounced this idea: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the
Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until
the heaven and the earth shall pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the
Law until everything has been fulfilled” (Matt. 5:17-18)

Here's a link to the full article:
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_fullfilllaw.pdf

This wasn't super helpful so I'm still looking.

I understand that. I just wonder what's the spirit of the law concerning banning people to eat pork, shellfish and wearing garments of mixed fiber. I'm sure there's a perfectly natural secular explanation for it, but that would mean those rules are not divinely inspired, which could cause a conondrum.
What I sort of take issue with this is that since it's not the letter of the law but the spirit of it, different people will see the letter of the law exactly the same, but interpret the spirit differently. To some, men who lie with men are an abomination means that the homosexual lifestyle (not the feelings) are sinful. To others, it means homosexuals deserve to die. I think people just use their common sense and values to interpret what's in the Bible in a way that suits them, picking the good bits to respect and ignoring the bad bits.

Basically, I was wrong to say that Jesus brought a "new" law of love and grace. He came to fulfill the law and so now we follow the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. We're not bound to all the individual laws as Israel was in O.T. times, but we do right.. following what we know God wants us to do (the spirit of the O.T. laws and all the principles in the N.T.) because He died for us. We're in debt, but most of all because we love Him, and when you love someone you want to please them. Does that make sense?

Yes, it does make sense, and I think it's an internally consistent belief with the rest of the Christian faith. Doesn't mean I agree with it, especially not the debt part.

 

[bonnie2]

Well, I would say that Jesus WAS talking about sinful nature, as is shown not just from that passage but from the other verses I posted As for the rest, I hope someone else can explain it better because I need to leave Christian chat, at least for a while. Spending waay too much time on this site lol

 

[Alex314]

Well, I would say that Jesus WAS talking about sinful nature, as is shown not just from that passage but from the other verses I posted As for the rest, I hope someone else can explain it better because I need to leave Christian chat, at least for a while. Spending waay too much time on this site lol

Oh no, I agree that he did speak about it in other verses, not just that one in particular!

Me too Ought to be writing more CVs for jobs!