The Unnecessary Controversy of Science and Religion

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scott27

Guest
#1
To some, it may be obvious. But you might be surprised how many people think that it must be one way or the other. That science disproves religion, or religion discredits science.

They are one and the same.

There are more things in science that are only theoretical than there are facts. Whether they are correct or not, doesn't change the point. God is behind all science and nature, down to the widely accepted theory of the big bang.

A good example; Evolution. I did a speech about teaching evolution and creationism in public schools (I believe either they both should be taught as optional courses, or neither. All or nothing).

What it came down to was people misunderstanding what religion is. Being religious doesn't mean you believe in God. It means you believe SOMETHING. Even if that something is evolution. Evolution is a religion. So the controversy is not between evolution and religion, it's between religion and religion.

I see God as the founder of all science and nature. If the big bang theory is correct, it didn't happen for no reason. It didn't happen by itself and out of nowhere, it was caused by God.

What are your thoughts?
 
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BananaPie

Guest
#2
I see God as the founder of all science and nature.
What are your thoughts?
I believe God said, "Let there be light" and BANG! The Universe happended. :D
 

shawntc

Senior Member
May 7, 2010
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#3
I do not believe science and Christianity conflict. Christianity is basically compatible with science. Religions like Hinduism which teach that the universe has always existed are the ones that conflict with science.

Science is not in opposition with God. Science is the study of how God operates the universe. Do you really think he would make a haphazard universe? I don't. They are not mutually exclusive. Granted, in things like evolution and the age of the universe, there are differences. These can be settled and either way, they do not discredit God. If you choose to believe evolution is real then you still have evidence that there is a creative God who decided to ultimately create humans through a process of gradual change, making all sorts of awesome and beautiful forms of plant and animal along the way.

My view on their place in school is this: Evolution should be taught in the science class. According to modern science, as best as we can tell from a scientific, non-religious perspective, we evolved. I'm fine with this being taught. If it's found to be untrue then they won't teach it. The creation story according to the Bible should be taught in the social studies class, which is what my elementary and high school did. In the social study/world history classes, they presented the world religions and explained some of their beliefs. The danger here, however, would be saying that "Science says this BUT Christianity says this, only one is right."
 
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Viva_baby05

Guest
#4
Is this site only forums or is there a chat?
 
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scott27

Guest
#5
The problem I have with it is, at least in my school, evolution was taught as fact (out of science books that are outdated and contain disproved theories), and creationism was never mentioned. Sadly I think this is the case in a lot of schools
 
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psychomom

Guest
#6
Firstly, I gotta say, shawn: well put! "Science is the study of how God operates the universe."

And I would rather evolution be taught as t-h-e-o-r-y, not as fact. It's part of the secular humanists' religion, but either they don't get that, or don't want to admit it. (probably both?)

It's amazing how much that's accpeted as "fact" can't stand up to the scientific method itself. :-o
But I agree that Christianity and science can coexist quite peacefully. The sad thing is (at least here in the States) that whole "separation of church and state" thing that most people are sure is in our Constitution. (it isn't) Not saying Christianity ought to be taught in schools. It used to be, but our society has changed too much for that now. So not only to folks not understand science, they don't know history or Con Law, either! lol

What's that old saying about no intelligent design in the universe is like a printing press exploding and ending as Encyclopedia Britannica? (maybe someone will articulate it better--help!?!) lol

~ellie
 
May 15, 2012
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#7
To some, it may be obvious. But you might be surprised how many people think that it must be one way or the other. That science disproves religion, or religion discredits science.

They are one and the same.
I'm sorry, I must disagee with that. Science is a method to gain empirical evidence about the world and to create knowledge via theories that can be tested. Science is all about knowledge and technology and intelligence.
Religion on the other hand offers answers of the more metaphysical kind, such as where we come from (soul), why, and offers peace and comfort to those in need. Religion is more about the emotions and happiness.
One is cold hard reality, the other is about warm human nature. They are not the same, but that does not mean they are mutually incompatible

There are more things in science that are only theoretical than there are facts. Whether they are correct or not, doesn't change the point. God is behind all science and nature, down to the widely accepted theory of the big bang.
That is your opinion. Science is built upon a foundation of facts, without facts to support them there would be no theories. Facts are what we see, the results of countless experiments. the theory is what ties them all together to mean something.
As for God being behind all of science, that is your personal opinion which is not supported by science. You can hold onto that opinion if you wish, just please don't assert it as a universal truth.

A good example; Evolution. I did a speech about teaching evolution and creationism in public schools (I believe either they both should be taught as optional courses, or neither. All or nothing).
I'm sorry, that is not a good example. That evolution happens is a fact (microevolution), but our understanding of it (modern synthesis of the theory of evolution) is far from perfect. Creationism is a religious story of how the world was created, and stands on equal footing with the creation stories of all the other religions that have ever existed in the world.

What it came down to was people misunderstanding what religion is. Being religious doesn't mean you believe in God. It means you believe SOMETHING. Even if that something is evolution. Evolution is a religion. So the controversy is not between evolution and religion, it's between religion and religion.
Again, I'd have to disagree. You seem to conflate religion with a set of beliefs, or a world-view. Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power. Evolution is NOT a religion, it is a fact. Accepting the modern synthesis of the theory of evolution is NOT religion, any more than accepting the theory of gravity is. The conflict is not between religion and religion, but between science and people who are trying to make their religion pass as science.

I see God as the founder of all science and nature. If the big bang theory is correct, it didn't happen for no reason. It didn't happen by itself and out of nowhere, it was caused by God.
That's very well and all if it is your personal opinion. Please don't force these personal subjective opinions on everyone else please.


shawntc
I do not believe science and Christianity conflict. Christianity is basically compatible with science. Religions like Hinduism which teach that the universe has always existed are the ones that conflict with science.

Science is not in opposition with God. Science is the study of how God operates the universe. Do you really think he would make a haphazard universe? I don't. They are not mutually exclusive. Granted, in things like evolution and the age of the universe, there are differences. These can be settled and either way, they do not discredit God. If you choose to believe evolution is real then you still have evidence that there is a creative God who decided to ultimately create humans through a process of gradual change, making all sorts of awesome and beautiful forms of plant and animal along the way.

My view on their place in school is this: Evolution should be taught in the science class. According to modern science, as best as we can tell from a scientific, non-religious perspective, we evolved. I'm fine with this being taught. If it's found to be untrue then they won't teach it. The creation story according to the Bible should be taught in the social studies class, which is what my elementary and high school did. In the social study/world history classes, they presented the world religions and explained some of their beliefs. The danger here, however, would be saying that "Science says this BUT Christianity says this, only one is right."
Thank you!


The problem I have with it is, at least in my school, evolution was taught as fact (out of science books that are outdated and contain disproved theories), and creationism was never mentioned. Sadly I think this is the case in a lot of schools
That evolution is taught with outdated books with disproven theories is indeed a problem. However, that seems to be the only problem here. Creationism should not and cannot be mentioned in the science classroom, as it is not scientific. Whether the school wants to teach creationism in non-science classes is up to them.


Psychomom
And I would rather evolution be taught as t-h-e-o-r-y, not as fact. It's part of the secular humanists' religion, but either they don't get that, or don't want to admit it. (probably both?)

It's amazing how much that's accpeted as "fact" can't stand up to the scientific method itself. :-o
But I agree that Christianity and science can coexist quite peacefully.
There seems to be some misunderstanding here. That evolution happens is as much a fact as the fact that gravity happens. We try to explain those with the theory of evolution and the theory of gravity respectively. Our understanding of how those phenomenon works is far from perfect, but it is close (and getting closer) to the truth the more we test and discover things. Evolution happens, that is a fact. Our understanding of it is the theory

The sad thing is (at least here in the States) that whole "separation of church and state" thing that most people are sure is in our Constitution. (it isn't) Not saying Christianity ought to be taught in schools. It used to be, but our society has changed too much for that now. So not only to folks not understand science, they don't know history or Con Law, either! lol
Unites States First Amendment in the Constitution: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Separation of church and state in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is separation of church and state.

What's that old saying about no intelligent design in the universe is like a printing press exploding and ending as Encyclopedia Britannica? (maybe someone will articulate it better--help!?!) lol

~ellie
I don't know what that saying is, and I can assure you it is most likely false.
 
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scott27

Guest
#8
Well I thought these things being my opinion was a given.
And I wouldn't expect creationism to be taught in science class, but in its own class or perhaps Theories of Creation, which could include both.
Also, religion is not necessarily a "belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power".

religion:
1. a specific set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects
2. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices

The belief in a deity is only one form of religion. By definition, the belief in evolution can be considered a religion.
 
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Wesley

Guest
#9
From the Oxford English Dictionary:

religion


Pronunciation: /rɪˈlɪdʒ(ə)n/
noun

[mass noun]
  • the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods: ideas about the relationship between science and religion
  • [count noun] a particular system of faith and worship: the world’s great religions
  • [count noun] a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion: consumerism is the new religion
The third denotation can be discarded as being out of context; it is a colloquial and not a formal definition.


The second cannot be applied to evolution, because like all science, it is tentative, and subject to disproof.


The first obviously doesn't pertain, because worship is not involved.


As a science, evolution is tentative, and subject to falsification. This is markedly different from faiths as practiced by men. You want to disprove evolution by natural selection? Show a mammal fossilized in 250-million-year-old sandstone, with no geological disturbances to account for any displacement.



It's that easy.

I personally think that an omnipotent god could work through evolution if he wanted to.

I mean, which clock is better -- the clock which keeps time by itself, or the clock which requires the clock-maker to make regular adjustments?
 
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May 15, 2012
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#10
Well I thought these things being my opinion was a given.
And I wouldn't expect creationism to be taught in science class, but in its own class or perhaps Theories of Creation, which could include both.
Also, religion is not necessarily a "belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power".

religion:
1. a specific set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects
2. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices

The belief in a deity is only one form of religion. By definition, the belief in evolution can be considered a religion.
The theory of evolution is neither a belief nor a practice though, it is a framework of mechanisms through which scientists can make predictions and then test those predictions to increase the sum of knowledge. A practice would be the practice of methodological naturalism and the scientific method, which we would both agree is far from religion.

By the definition you provided, belief in aliens, that Elvis is still alive, and any serious hobby such as stamp collecting can be considered a form of religion. You are doing the Judeo-Christian tradition a great disservice by broadening the definition of religion as such.
 
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scott27

Guest
#12
If I may reiterate the direction this thread was intended to go,

I believe science and belief in God are, as shawntc put it, compatible. I brought it up in the first place because I often hear people say you can't believe in God and science, and I disagree. I'm no scientist, but I've taken courses in physics and related theoretical studies, and I believe God is simply the operating force behind all of it; the creation of life, the creation of the universe, the laws of physics and nature..

The whole evolution vs creationism thing is the same, I'm not the one to say if evolution is correct, but is doesn't disprove Christianity even if it is.

My point was, people think that the Bible and science books are like sworn rivals, but I believe they fit together, and that God is the ultimate scientist.
 
May 15, 2012
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#13
See my signature. It is a quote by Professor John Lennox. Listen to him talk about this.

John Lennox - Science vs Religion - YouTube
That's a very nice video, and while the man is allowed his personal opinions, I'd say that most scientists disagree with him, and to a certain extent, he's not even wrong. Let me explain. Science does not prove, it disproves. They take a bunch of ideas, and disprove the lot of them until one hasn't been disproved. Then they take that idea more, and disprove more and more and more of it, sort of how one chips away at stone around a fossil say. After a while, there is no more stone left, only the bones you wanted. At that point, you know you've found a great idea, which in science becomes part of a theory.
So you have wrong, and not yet wrong. There is no 'right' option.
However, with Prof. Lennox' God hypothesis, he's not even wrong, meaning there's no way that he can be proven wrong. It's like saying there's this beautiful and perfect skeleton hidden in a slab of stone, but there's no way to chip away at the stone. We can't try to disprove his idea in any way, shape or form, we have no way of knowing if he's correct or not. Beautiful mathematical equations in the universe? Must come from the mind of a creator! No mathematical equations? Well look at the beauty of it, it must come from the mind of a creator! We have no idea how DNA was formed, therefore it must come from the mind of a creator! We synthesized DNA, look, DNA can only come from the mind of a creator!
See, there's no way at all to tell if his idea is right or wrong, it is non-falsifiable. Falsifiability is a hugely important concept in science, and that is why intelligent design is not science.

As for his point on the Miller-Urey experiment, he is wrong. The gap that has been discovered by science in that area is no more 'bad' than the gap that was discovered with quantum mechanics nor with the gaps about the origin of the cosmos. Gaps in science are areas where research may be conducted, and all knowledge gaps are scientific hot-spots. If there were no gaps, scientists would be out of a job.

He also says it's the science that he does understand that points to his belief in God. That's very well and all, but it's his personal interpretation, because science in and of itself in no way points to God, merely to naturalistic mechanics and formulas about the universe.

"For me, as a Christian believer, the beauty of the scientific laws only reinforces my faith in an intelligent, divine creative force at work. The more I understand science, the more I believe in God because of my wonder at the breadth, sophistication and integrity of his creation."
That's very well, but there is no evidence pointing to an intelligent creative force at work, just natural forces at work. As for the sophistication and integrity, consider the appalling chaos and disorder present everywhere in the universe, stars exploding, asteroids smashing into planets, volcanoes erupting, earthquakes, etc etc etc. What kind of standard does one compare all of this to be able to call it sophisticated and integrity?


If I may reiterate the direction this thread was intended to go,

I believe science and belief in God are, as shawntc put it, compatible. I brought it up in the first place because I often hear people say you can't believe in God and science, and I disagree. I'm no scientist, but I've taken courses in physics and related theoretical studies, and I believe God is simply the operating force behind all of it; the creation of life, the creation of the universe, the laws of physics and nature..
I'd say that religion HAS to be compatible with science, or else it gets left behind.
Also, if you define God as "the operating force behind all of it; the creation of life, the creation of the universe, the laws of physics and nature", then explain how such a god may have a will of its own, benevolence, and how such a god may send his son to earth to be killed and resuscitated on the third day to absolve humanity of the original sin of humans when God created them. If you do not discard those notions, then there are inherent conflicts between your definition and the Judeo-Christian one. If you DO discard those notions, then why not call yourself a deist instead of a christian?

The whole evolution vs creationism thing is the same, I'm not the one to say if evolution is correct, but is doesn't disprove Christianity even if it is.
Agreed. However, creationism isn't an alternative to evolution, it's not scientific. Just pointing out that putting evolution and creation on equal footing is simply not correct.

My point was, people think that the Bible and science books are like sworn rivals, but I believe they fit together, and that God is the ultimate scientist.
I think that biblical literalists turn science and faith one against the other, because they adopt unscientific positions to reinforce their beliefs, and try to call it science. To which scientists respond by saying 'No, creationism/ID is not science' and the general public ends up thinking science is against religion in general, instead of only being against the religious stuff literalists and fundamentalists try to pass off as science.
I'd say science and religion are perfectly compatible, so long as religion stays outside of science.
 
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scott27

Guest
#14
I'd say that religion HAS to be compatible with science, or else it gets left behind.
Also, if you define God as "the operating force behind all of it; the creation of life, the creation of the universe, the laws of physics and nature", then explain how such a god may have a will of its own, benevolence, and how such a god may send his son to earth to be killed and resuscitated on the third day to absolve humanity of the original sin of humans when God created them. If you do not discard those notions, then there are inherent conflicts between your definition and the Judeo-Christian one. If you DO discard those notions, then why not call yourself a deist instead of a christian?
I don't see the conflict. God created the universe. Everything that we know to exist today, God got the ball rolling. God put in place the laws nature works by. That's my view. This does not discard any of the notions you listed
 
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rainacorn

Guest
#15
I'm glad this subject keeps coming up, but I hate being repetitive.

I'll just add that while I have no difficulty accepting the reality of evolution, it is often treated as an explanation for the origin of life and the origin of consciousness, when it really doesn't speak to such things at all. Understanding how life persisted and changed over time is not necessarily understanding how it first started or why humans are so unique.

I will also say that science at this depth is relatively new. Biblical literalists often mock and marginalize science and scientists for not having all the answers, but they really haven't been at it that long. We need to keep learning and not presume to know everything about everything, regardless of what positions you're taking. Whether you worship God or worship science, you have not unlocked all of the secrets of the Universe. Tone it down.
 
May 15, 2012
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#16
I don't see the conflict. God created the universe. Everything that we know to exist today, God got the ball rolling. God put in place the laws nature works by. That's my view. This does not discard any of the notions you listed
The thing is, one could replace God with Odin or AmunRa or Kronus, and it would have just about the same amount of evidence. I understand this is where faith steps in.
I'd just question why God needed to wait more than 10 billion years to get humans here, then to create us with a wasteful process such as evolution, when he could have snapped his fingers and gotten it done immediately. Why did he go to such troubles as to make everything appear to have happened naturally without any outside interference whatsoever?


I'm glad this subject keeps coming up, but I hate being repetitive.

I'll just add that while I have no difficulty accepting the reality of evolution, it is often treated as an explanation for the origin of life and the origin of consciousness, when it really doesn't speak to such things at all. Understanding how life persisted and changed over time is not necessarily understanding how it first started or why humans are so unique.

I will also say that science at this depth is relatively new. Biblical literalists often mock and marginalize science and scientists for not having all the answers, but they really haven't been at it that long. We need to keep learning and not presume to know everything about everything, regardless of what positions you're taking. Whether you worship God or worship science, you have not unlocked all of the secrets of the Universe. Tone it down.
Evolution could perhaps help to explain the origins of consciousness (evolutionary biology and neurobiology together, for instance) but I agree with pretty much everything else :)
 
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scott27

Guest
#17
The thing is, one could replace God with Odin or AmunRa or Kronus, and it would have just about the same amount of evidence. I understand this is where faith steps in.
I'd just question why God needed to wait more than 10 billion years to get humans here, then to create us with a wasteful process such as evolution, when he could have snapped his fingers and gotten it done immediately. Why did he go to such troubles as to make everything appear to have happened naturally without any outside interference whatsoever?
Understandable, I've experimented with finding connections between say Greek mythology, or Norse, or Egyptian, etc. and Christianity. Mostly just out of curiosity. I don't know a whole lot about them, but it seems to me like they all have the same basic concepts of Gods, but with different names. This also occurs with biblical stories. In a lot of ancient cultures, substitute a few names and you've got the same story.

If you've ever watched Ancient Aliens, there are some interesting theories that address the connections between Christianity and other religions. They suggest that most of them are the same story with the same characters, but interpreted in their own unique way. The Greek gods, for example, could have been angels, or archangels, misinterpreted as gods because of their divine nature. Or even demons, considering the situation with Kronus, and the fact that they weren't exactly 'sinless' for lack of a better explanation.

Anyway, I maintain that seeking a better understanding of God is always good, but with the realization that we will never fully understand, nor are we meant to. After all, what would be the point in faith if we already knew all the answers?
 
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scott27

Guest
#18
"We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall."
Proverbs 16:33
 
May 15, 2012
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#19
Understandable, I've experimented with finding connections between say Greek mythology, or Norse, or Egyptian, etc. and Christianity. Mostly just out of curiosity. I don't know a whole lot about them, but it seems to me like they all have the same basic concepts of Gods, but with different names. This also occurs with biblical stories. In a lot of ancient cultures, substitute a few names and you've got the same story.
You'd be amazed at how many people claim this is not true and that their religion is special and all the others are false. I'm very thankful to find people such as yourself here, willing to admit things as they are :)

If you've ever watched Ancient Aliens, there are some interesting theories that address the connections between Christianity and other religions. They suggest that most of them are the same story with the same characters, but interpreted in their own unique way. The Greek gods, for example, could have been angels, or archangels, misinterpreted as gods because of their divine nature. Or even demons, considering the situation with Kronus, and the fact that they weren't exactly 'sinless' for lack of a better explanation.
Actually I've never watched that series.
I'd say that's very nice, but replacing one kind of mythology with another mythology is no substitute for finding out how they really began, if you see what I mean. I mean, to you, saying the Norse gods were mistaken because they were really seeing Roman gods, they just didn't understand the real deal and made up their own stories doesn't really explain éanything. Well, saying that Greek gods were angels doesn't really explain anything either

Anyway, I maintain that seeking a better understanding of God is always good, but with the realization that we will never fully understand, nor are we meant to. After all, what would be the point in faith if we already knew all the answers?
If one thinks faith is a good thing, then that is fine. For me however, I think it would be better to try to understand the natural laws of the universe we inhabit.

"We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall."
Proverbs 16:33
Oddly enough, dice always seem to follow certain laws of probability, no matter who throws them nor how much one prays for a certain number to show up...
 
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psychomom

Guest
#20
Alex, what I mean is that most people think the words "separation of church and state" occur in the US Constitution. The first amendment was meant to protect the people from the government, not the other way around. It specifically protects the people of the United States from the government espablishing a national religion (as had been done in Europe). And it specifically prohibits the government from making any law that would prevent the people's ability to exercise their faith. Period.

The words "separation of church and state" occur in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802, years after the Constitution had been ratified. They wanted him, as the President, to liberate them from the religious constraints they found themselves under in Connecticut. His response was to quote the first amendment to them, and he used the metaphor of a wall of separation between church and state to show them that as the President and a government official, he could not interfere in their internal, state, religious affairs. He was, in essence, saying that the government must stay out of church business. His metaphor was not a demand for the separation of religion and politics; rather it addressed the principle of federalism. He was saying that the federal government has no right to interfere in what was state of Connecticut business.

The Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist papers are excellent resources for this sort of information. Sorry- I know this is off topic, but I thought a clearer explanation of what you challenged was needed.

~ellie