Born Christian?

[Ugly]

OK, I'm sure this fits better in another forum, but i do have my reasons for picking this one.

Something i see in a LOT of peoples profiles on this site, under the question of when they are born again, they answer 'born Christian'. Implying that, from birth, out of the womb, they were saved.

How can you be born again as a baby? The bible says 'you must be born again to enter the kingdom of Heaven'. If you are born, unable to speak, think in terms of right and wrong, or even understand it if it were told to you, how can you make a conscious decision to say 'i am a sinner, i admit my sin and disobedience from God and i need Jesus to fill my heart and forgive my sins and make me born again'? How can a baby think, say or feel that? Because thats what you essentially need to be born again.

Anyone care to explain. Bring scriptural evidence.

 

[CanadaNZ]

There is no scriptural evidence. We must accept in Faith, until we are able to do so we are not christians. Though there is no specific scriptural evidence that I can think of I believe that before we are able to understand God's plan of salvation (too young to understand) we are considered innocent and would still go to heaven (i.e. the 40 million or so babies murdered worldwide every year).

 

[wwjd_kilden]

^agree

I think what they mean is this, at least this is what is true to me:

I grew up in a Christian family, a Christian community. I have no memory of making a specific , concious choice of "now I want to follow God", I've just believed for as long as I can remember.

I do agree that you cannot be born Christian, just thinking what I said above might be what they mean when saying it.

 

[Peter321]

^agree

I think what they mean is this, at least this is what is true to me:

I grew up in a Christian family, a Christian community. I have no memory of making a specific , concious choice of "now I want to follow God", I've just believed for as long as I can remember.

I do agree that you cannot be born Christian, just thinking what I said above might be what they mean when saying it.

I think this aswell, if they say born christian, they probably mean they were raised christian and have pretty much always gone with their parents to church which eventually lead them on to believing themselves.

 

[Jullianna]

I have seen/felt God's presence, teaching, guidance and protection in my life since I was tiny, but I agree that I was not saved until I was old enough to understand my need for a Savior and commit my life to Him and to His ways.

 

[1still_waters]

If one believes in election/predestination, then the logical conclusion is that you were technically saved since birth.

 

[1still_waters]

I think this is some peoples' way of saying...I'M A CALVINIST!!

 

[wwjd_kilden]

If one believes in election/predestination, then the logical conclusion is that you were technically saved since birth.

I just felt like being difficult: If it is predestination, wouldn't they be saved before birth?
(I don't believe in it, so I don't know really)

 

[1still_waters]

I just felt like being difficult: If it is predestination, wouldn't they be saved before birth?
(I don't believe in it, so I don't know really)

Yup. They need to iron out their Calvinism a bit.

 

[Oncefallen]

If one believes in election/predestination, then the logical conclusion is that you were technically saved since birth.

I think this is some peoples' way of saying...I'M A CALVINIST!!

Eeeeh, but if they were hard line Calvinist's they would probably be saying that they were saved since before the foundation of the earth.

Ugly there is an obscure verse in 1 Corinthians 7 that some point to as teaching salvation from birth. Verse 14 says, "For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be un-clean, but as it is they are holy." Those who hold to this doctrine would say that a child is saved by their believing parent's faith until reaching an "age of accountability" at which time then they are saved by their own faith.

Besides Ugly, didn't you know that being born in a barn makes me a cow?

 

[lil_christian]

you know what Oncefallen, I'm pretty sure I HAVE seen things that have said they've been saved since before the foundation of the Earth. LOL crazy, huh?

 

[lil_christian]

Yup. They need to iron out their Calvinism a bit.

 

[lil_christian]

If one believes in election/predestination, then the logical conclusion is that you were technically saved since birth.

You stole what I was gonna say! lol

 

[lil_christian]

OK, I'm sure this fits better in another forum, but i do have my reasons for picking this one.

Something i see in a LOT of peoples profiles on this site, under the question of when they are born again, they answer 'born Christian'. Implying that, from birth, out of the womb, they were saved.

How can you be born again as a baby? The bible says 'you must be born again to enter the kingdom of Heaven'. If you are born, unable to speak, think in terms of right and wrong, or even understand it if it were told to you, how can you make a conscious decision to say 'i am a sinner, i admit my sin and disobedience from God and i need Jesus to fill my heart and forgive my sins and make me born again'? How can a baby think, say or feel that? Because thats what you essentially need to be born again.

Anyone care to explain. Bring scriptural evidence.

But anyways, I'm gonna reply to this now.


So, the way Calvinistic predestination works, is that God predetermines who is saved and who is condemned. So basically, since they were born, they've been saved. Because they were already predestined to be saved.

The verses they give are things like:


Romans 9:15-17

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15 For He says to Moses, “ I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “ For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed [a]throughout the whole earth.”





John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

and then the one thing that really puts the icing on the cake for them is:

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him...

But please note, I am not Calvinist and I am not bashing Calvinism, as much as I disagree with it.

But I'm gonna list the problems with the things of Calvinism and being saved before the foundation of the world or saved at birth (though people probably already see them):

1. Honestly, it limits the power of Jesus' death and Resurrection.

2. It doesn't really give those a need to really repent or ask for forgiveness or even a need for Jesus when it's really put into perspective. You got eternal security. And it was done before the foundation of the world. So seemingly in no way, shape, or form can you lose it. No matter what you do. Even if you walk away from God or even if you reject Him. Because YOU, my friend, were predestined. I honestly wish I could say I was exaggerating, but I've given people this point and they said that what I said was true...

3. They make God look like He loves the "elect" deeply and couldn't care less about the unsaved. That if someone condemns themselves, He couldn't care less. Ezekiel says otherwise.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “ rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”

4. If Calvinism is all true, then where's the need or what's the point of evangelism?


Okay, I think I've covered everything. Hope this helps, Ugly!

And I hope I didn't offend anyone who is Calvinist. I honestly hope I didn't. Not one to intentionally offend anyone.

 

[NodMyHeadLikeYeah]

I'm a Calvanist.

I'm not debating anyone about what i have to say, because a lot of people on here can't control themselves and start calling names and getting really angry when someone does not agree with them. I dont have the patience for that.

So here it goes.

I believe christ did choose me before the foundation of the world. I however do not believe once you pop out of your mothers womb you are a christian, because that would go against what Romans 10:9 says.
If you confess with your mouth Jesus is lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved.

We will never have all the answers. Christinity cannot be put in a neat little box where we understand everything the word of God says, and we have all the answers for everything. That's just crap and whoever tells you they have all the answers is lying.
Were humans and our understanding is limited.

I believe in predestination. Could i be wrong. Yes. Those of you who dont believe in it, could you be wrong. Yes. We will never know for certain until that day he comes back to get us. However while im here on this earth, this is what i choose to believe. That before God shaped this Earth, i was on his mind. When this universe was totally devoid of everything He had a plan for me, and he said i was going to be his. I believe he knew i was going to commit some horrible sins, but he knew i was always his and he knew i was going to eventually run out of steam and say forgive me for trying to go my own way, come change my life.
Do i believe that God created some people who he knew would go to hell. You better believe i do. He created the most beautiful angel in heaven who is now Satan. He knew that angel would eventually be Satan, but he still created him didnt he. He knew satan was going to roam around looking for someone to devour.

Lil christian i love that verse you put in Romans 9:15

For he says to moses i will have mercy on whom i have mercy and i will have compassion on whom i will have compassion. It does not therefore depend on mans desire or effort but on gods mercy. For the scripture says to pharoah, " i raised you up for this very purpose that i might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth". Therefore god has mercy on whoem he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

I believe exactly what this verse says. I see no reason why i shouldn't. It's in his word and i believe his word is truth.


This is what it says in Exodus 7:3
But i will harden pharoahs heart, and though i multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt he will not listen to you.

He also says in Exodus 10 that he hardened Pharoahs heart and his officals
Scripture says that God is the same yesterday as he is today. So if he harden pharoahs heart so that pharoah would not listen, why wouldn't God do that today.

God knew my uncle wouldn't come to know him as his savior until the last four days of his life. He also knew my brother would die never knowing him. My uncle is in heaven, my brother is in hell. Yet he still created both of them. He created my brother KNOWING full well he would go to hell.. He knew Johnny wouldnt make it past 24 years old. He knew Johnny would never accept him. Do you think that shocked God, I mean can you see christ sitting in heaven going. "oh nooo Johnny just died!! He wasnt saved!! i had no idea!!"

Lil christian whats the point of evangelism... Christ tells us to spread his gospel. It's kinda like the same reason why we pray. God already knows whats gonna happen yet he commands us to pray without ceasing. We do things because he tells us to.

Does it seem unfair that christ would create people just to go to hell. Well yes of course it does.
I have to think of it like this though.
I suffered as a child. Never did God step in one time to stop what was going on. He allowed everything that happend to happen, and not only that, he knew i was going to suffer. Do i understand WHY that happened. No. Does it seem unfair. Heck yeah
However it says in scripture that God is love. So i believe he is just as loving now as he was when he sat in heaven and watched me suffer.
I have no right to question him on why he allows this or allows that. Who is he to have to answer to someone like me?

 

[LightningClap0002]

Additional verse that Holly's post brought to mind:

Romans 9:20

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

 

[NodMyHeadLikeYeah]

Additional verse that Holly's post brought to mind:

Romans 9:20

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

That is the verse i was saying in my head as i typed that last part about who am i to question him

 

[kayem77]

I also fall into the category of Calvinist in some degree, although as Holly said I wouldn't be as arrogant as to say I know exactly how God works his plans. I just know that he knew before the foundation of the world that I was going to accept him and that I'm his work, not my own. I can't boast about how I came to God by myself.

I don't believe I was saved all my life though, I confessed Christ as my Savior and Lord only one year ago. I made a decision to serve Him. I lived in sin, and then I turned from it, and I think that any genuine Christian needs to make that decision.
I think that some people mean to say that they were raised Christian, and maybe they just don't remember the day when they started living for God since they were raised in church. But you always need to make a decision, wether you were raised in church or not. Since I wasn't raised Christian it's easier for me to pinpoint when I started living for Christ.

 

[LightningClap0002]

I dunno...

I have always held to the age of accountability idea. Not sure that there is any scritural support against it, and there is the somewhat obscure passage previously mentioned that might support it. It seems like "the loving act" would be that until you have the intelligence and language to acknowledge God, His grace would still apply... somehow.

 

[Liz01]

I pretty much agree with what NodmyHeadlikeyeah wrote.

But i think im not understanding very well what the OP means , as i remember John 3:3-7 says :

"Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

So i believe that we need to born again in water and spirit.
Despite that verse, i have realized that there are many ppl (not where i live bc the mayority is catholic) that say that they are not new-born which is unbiblical according with this and other verses in bible or they havent took yet the decision to obey Jesus.

I have to admit that i was very curious about the ppl who borned in a christian home and grew up being christians (i actually posted a thread on CC ) because in all the new testament, what makes a difference between someone who believe in Jesus and someone that not is a "decision" and for me (that i never knew anything about God before being christian and my family hating priests...) , that decision was very clear, but for someone that always has lived as christian may be not so clear.

And about predestination i read this on my bible Romans 8:29 and Ephesians 1:11 so i believe in predestination, i dont understand it, but if bible say it then i believe it (im not very complicated )