Is denial of sex in marriage same as unfaithfulness?

[pzsl3j]

Ok - before we get all the cliche answers here...let me frame this question. I don't believe witholding sex in marriage is identical to cheating. Cheating is also much easier to diagnose, you either have cheated or you have not(and I mean cheating emotionally or physically).

However as the Bible says - there are sins of omission and sins of commision. So cheating on your spouse would be a sin of commision, but the flipside of that sin is the witholding yourself from your spouse - which is a sin of omission.

Also yes we have all the traditional arguments - well what if he/she has a headache, or medical condition...we all understand there are exceptions. But what if one partnern basically has no libido and the other partner actually has one?

It is interesting that the Bible NEVER talks about partners giving consent to eachother to have marital relations...in fact it says just the opposite - they both have to give consent to any stopping of relations:

1 Corinthians 7
7 Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. 2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

And the part of about Paul calling it "a concession, not as a command" is not refereing to not depriving one another of marital rights..but he is talking about marriage - he wishes everyone could be single like him - but it is a special gift from God to be able to remain single.

In fact in the NASB(which is more literal than the KJV or NIV in many instances) it has stronger language on verse 5 - "Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time"

Basically Paul saw an issue we know about from church history - that many Christians were being falsely taught an asetic way of life(a life of denial of all pleasure) and some were actually practicing celibicy in marriage. Paul strongly condemns this action.

I think it is very interesting - that he acnknowledges the sexual need can be higher from either the women or the man - not just the man.

In this day an age we talk about trying to find compromise between low libido and high libido persons...when the only consent the Bible speaks of is consent NOT to have relations for a short time.

In fact the entire language of this passage suggests married couples ought to come together as often and regular as possible in order to avoid temptation.

Yes marriage is not all about sex - and I have heard of some marriages where they only thing they have is sex, no other relationship - and that is just as wrong. But sex is huge part of marrage - in fact it is the defining act of marriage - the marriage act itself.

So I say all this as backdrop to my question - the Bible says someone can divorce their spouse for unfaithfulness, so is witholding relations fall under the category of being unfaithful? Is it simply the flipside of cheating, really instead of cheating on your spouse, you are cheating your spouse of yourself?

 

[pzsl3j]

One other thing - I know many people will just post simple answer of - "no its not the same" or little answers like that - and thats ok. But what I am looking for is for someone to tackle the tough issue of explaining the difference between the two - the sin of cheating on one's spouse vs the cheating one's spouse of one's self.

 

[Mikhal88]

Everything you have stated is as it is. The unity of two defines who they are in which each own the other. You should not have pursued a relationship with someone who does not share the same wants and desires in life. In some cases a person changes and then things can turn out unexpected. One thing you stated "can divorce their spouse for unfaithfulness" is wrong, only on the grounds of sexual immorality may one divorce from their spouse. And thus the act of not wanting sex cannot be justified as a reason to divorce. You have to question yourself, that if you married a women and then she has an accident and becomes paralyzed and thus no longer has desire nor feelings of such desires, would it be loyal and righteous to now abandon her because of this? Only someone cruel and unloving would do so and it is a sin in Gods eyes. You make an oath when you marry to be there for your other under any circumstances until death. A wife can still submit to her husband if she does not have such a desire, it is her duty to be there for her husband and provide what couples desire in life. Just as when a man does not desire can he still provide his wife by other means to satisfy her, this is also his duty to be there for his wife and provide what she desires. To speak clearly sex does actually define a marriage but for some it does not. The reason for marriage to another is to fulfill the desires in life each so crave, not only physically but emotionally as well. Sex is regarded as a necessity in a marriage life and life in general and i believe very few will disagree with that.

 

[pzsl3j]

Everything you have stated is as it is. The unity of two defines who they are in which each own the other. You should not have pursued a relationship with someone who does not share the same wants and desires in life. In some cases a person changes and then things can turn out unexpected. One thing you stated "can divorce their spouse for unfaithfulness" is wrong, only on the grounds of sexual immorality may one divorce from their spouse. And thus the act of not wanting sex cannot be justified as a reason to divorce. You have to question yourself, that if you married a women and then she has an accident and becomes paralyzed and thus no longer has desire nor feelings of such desires, would it be loyal and righteous to now abandon her because of this? Only someone cruel and unloving would do so and it is a sin in Gods eyes. You make an oath when you marry to be there for your other under any circumstances until death. A wife can still submit to her husband if she does not have such a desire, it is her duty to be there for her husband and provide what couples desire in life. Just as when a man does not desire can he still provide his wife by other means to satisfy her, this is also his duty to be there for his wife and provide what she desires. To speak clearly sex does actually define a marriage but for some it does not. The reason for marriage to another is to fulfill the desires in life each so crave, not only physically but emotionally as well. Sex is regarded as a necessity in a marriage life and life in general and i believe very few will disagree with that.

First here is where I agree with you:

I agree it would be heartless and cruel for someone to divorce their spouse because they had an accident and could no longer have sex - 100%. But that person is not willfully denying the person, there is nothing they can do - I believe this is the rare exception and not the norm.

Where I disagree:

I believe that it is sexually immoral(immoral means wrong action) to willfully deny your spouse when you are physicially capable of having sex. Therefore you are cheating your spouse of yourself and placing them in a position of burning passion and to be tempted by Satan as Paul points out.

Please do not misunderstand me, I am not talking about occasional denials...we are all human. I am talking about willful, thought out, "you are married and stuck with me and if I only want to have sex with 8 times a year, then you are stuck with that, and need to accept it".


Also it is very common...for Christian women and non-christian women alike, to behave very flirtateously and sexually toward their boyfriends(and yes I know sex before marriage is wrong) or husbands and only after a few months of marriage to pull the wool from his eyes to reveal her true intent..that she would set the agenda around sex and not him and he just has to deal with it.

In many ways for a women to the switch-aroo as I am describing would probably be grounds for annullment if you can catch it fast enough. It is tantoumout to fraud, as the King James version calls it - "defraud ye not"

"Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency." 1 Corinthians 7:5

 

[RoboOp]

Ok - before we get all the cliche answers here...let me frame this question. I don't believe witholding sex in marriage is identical to cheating. Cheating is also much easier to diagnose, you either have cheated or you have not(and I mean cheating emotionally or physically).

However as the Bible says - there are sins of omission and sins of commision. So cheating on your spouse would be a sin of commision, but the flipside of that sin is the witholding yourself from your spouse - which is a sin of omission.

Also yes we have all the traditional arguments - well what if he/she has a headache, or medical condition...we all understand there are exceptions. But what if one partnern basically has no libido and the other partner actually has one?

It is interesting that the Bible NEVER talks about partners giving consent to eachother to have marital relations...in fact it says just the opposite - they both have to give consent to any stopping of relations:

1 Corinthians 7
7 Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. 2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

And the part of about Paul calling it "a concession, not as a command" is not refereing to not depriving one another of marital rights..but he is talking about marriage - he wishes everyone could be single like him - but it is a special gift from God to be able to remain single.

In fact in the NASB(which is more literal than the KJV or NIV in many instances) it has stronger language on verse 5 - "Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time"

Basically Paul saw an issue we know about from church history - that many Christians were being falsely taught an asetic way of life(a life of denial of all pleasure) and some were actually practicing celibicy in marriage. Paul strongly condemns this action.

I think it is very interesting - that he acnknowledges the sexual need can be higher from either the women or the man - not just the man.

In this day an age we talk about trying to find compromise between low libido and high libido persons...when the only consent the Bible speaks of is consent NOT to have relations for a short time.

In fact the entire language of this passage suggests married couples ought to come together as often and regular as possible in order to avoid temptation.

Yes marriage is not all about sex - and I have heard of some marriages where they only thing they have is sex, no other relationship - and that is just as wrong. But sex is huge part of marrage - in fact it is the defining act of marriage - the marriage act itself.

So I say all this as backdrop to my question - the Bible says someone can divorce their spouse for unfaithfulness, so is witholding relations fall under the category of being unfaithful? Is it simply the flipside of cheating, really instead of cheating on your spouse, you are cheating your spouse of yourself?

It is inconsiderate and selfish for a person to have sexual relations with their spouse only when he/she wants to.

It's usually females who are guilty of this (as men's sexual desires are more frequent) but I've known of cases of males doing it too. It's been posted here in this forum by a female (regarding her husband depriving her), and I've known of cases. Anyway...

A married person shouldn't have to go on with temptation or sexual desire just because the spouse doesn't currently have the desire.

Yes it is wrong for a person to deprive his or her spouse.

And yes that's "cheating" him/her of marital rights.

But is that "cheating on" as in adultery, as in a Biblical basis for divorce? No.

It can make a marriage miserable but no it's not a reason for divorce. Sometimes as Christians we're called to suffer -- even by having our head sliced off (literally).

Sorry if all my answers are simplistic (I know that marriage issues are not always that simple) but you asked a simplistic question so I'm just giving the simple answers that the Bible gives on these two matters (depriving one's spouse, and allowances for divorce).

The bottom line is, each spouse should try to obey God in his or her role, even if the other isn't (which can be hard).

 

[pzsl3j]

It is inconsiderate and selfish for a person to have sexual relations with their spouse only when he/she wants to.

It's usually females who are guilty of this (as men's sexual desires are more frequent) but I've known of cases of males doing it too. It's been posted here in this forum by a female (regarding her husband depriving her), and I've known of cases. Anyway...

A married person shouldn't have to go on with temptation or sexual desire just because the spouse doesn't currently have the desire.

Yes it is wrong for a person to deprive his or her spouse.

And yes that's "cheating" him/her of marital rights.

But is that "cheating on" as in adultery, as in a Biblical basis for divorce? No.

It can make a marriage miserable but no it's not a reason for divorce. Sometimes as Christians we're called to suffer -- even by having our head sliced off (literally).

Sorry if all my answers are simplistic (I know that marriage issues are not always that simple) but you asked a simplistic question so I'm just giving the simple answers that the Bible gives on these two matters (depriving one's spouse, and allowances for divorce).

The bottom line is, each spouse should try to obey God in his or her role, even if the other isn't (which can be hard).

Thank you for you answer, an no it is not too simplistic.

But my personal belief as I have pointed out that is "cheating on" is the flipside of the same coine as "cheating of"(as in willfully,knowingly cheating your spouse of yourself)

Yes the Bible calls us to suffer for Christ, in the cause giving the Gospel and if someone were to arrest us for spreading the Gospel we turn the other cheek and let them smite us for that.

But the Bible never calls us to suffer in our marriage, to suffer in our jobs, to suffer in country. When we suffer suffer in our job, we can look for a new one where we will be treated better. If our freedoms were taken away in our country - we can go to a new country or fight for our freedoms again as our founding fathers did.

And in our marriage -yes I believe one should fight long and hard to make their marriage work, but if you are dealing with somone who was willfully dishonest about marriage only to defraud their spouse shortly after marriage - that person is not bound to that fradulent marrage for the rest of their lives - in my opinion.

 

[pzsl3j]

It is inconsiderate and selfish for a person to have sexual relations with their spouse only when he/she wants to.

It's usually females who are guilty of this (as men's sexual desires are more frequent) but I've known of cases of males doing it too. It's been posted here in this forum by a female (regarding her husband depriving her), and I've known of cases. Anyway...

A married person shouldn't have to go on with temptation or sexual desire just because the spouse doesn't currently have the desire.

Yes it is wrong for a person to deprive his or her spouse.

And yes that's "cheating" him/her of marital rights.

But is that "cheating on" as in adultery, as in a Biblical basis for divorce? No.

It can make a marriage miserable but no it's not a reason for divorce. Sometimes as Christians we're called to suffer -- even by having our head sliced off (literally).

Sorry if all my answers are simplistic (I know that marriage issues are not always that simple) but you asked a simplistic question so I'm just giving the simple answers that the Bible gives on these two matters (depriving one's spouse, and allowances for divorce).

The bottom line is, each spouse should try to obey God in his or her role, even if the other isn't (which can be hard).

Let me just add one thing. In ancient times and especially Israel - do you think a man would think twice of putting his wife away(divorce) if she were to willfully deny him his marital dues? It is an easy answer - no he would not think twice about it. Because herwillful denial would indicate her lack of love,lack of respect, and lack of submission. In the past a woman would think twice about denying her husband -because if he were to put her away she would have nothing and be an outcast and possibly never see her children again.

So women had a very very strong motive to make their husbands happy. Now I realize this same system also setup the possibility of abuse - where men abused their wives and there was nothing they could do about it - and that is highly unfortunate and it was wrong when it occurred.

But today what does a woman have to fear from denying her husband? If he divorces her she will get the children and half of everything he owns...so the coin has been majorly flipped.

 

[RoboOp]

Thank you for you answer, an no it is not too simplistic.

But my personal belief as I have pointed out that is "cheating on" is the flipside of the same coine as "cheating of"(as in willfully,knowingly cheating your spouse of yourself)

Yes the Bible calls us to suffer for Christ, in the cause giving the Gospel and if someone were to arrest us for spreading the Gospel we turn the other cheek and let them smite us for that.

But the Bible never calls us to suffer in our marriage, to suffer in our jobs, to suffer in country. When we suffer suffer in our job, we can look for a new one where we will be treated better. If our freedoms were taken away in our country - we can go to a new country or fight for our freedoms again as our founding fathers did.

And in our marriage -yes I believe one should fight long and hard to make their marriage work, but if you are dealing with somone who was willfully dishonest about marriage only to defraud their spouse shortly after marriage - that person is not bound to that fradulent marrage for the rest of their lives - in my opinion.

You are wrong, and apparently trying to justify divorce by trying to make "equivalents", with reasoning.

You are wrong in saying that God never calls us to suffer in marriage, in jobs, or in country. There are Bible verses on all three of those.

In fact you can find it all in one passage. I'll simply highlight the parts that I want you to see, in this passage 1 Peter 2:13 - 3:17:

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

22 “He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”[e]
23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25 For “you were like sheep going astray,”[f] but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

3 Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Suffering for Doing Good

8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10 For,

“Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep their tongue from evil
and their lips from deceitful speech.
11 They must turn from evil and do good;
they must seek peace and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”[g]
13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear their threats[h]; do not be frightened.” 15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

Notice wives are told to submit to unbelieving husbands (some translations say "who obey not the word"), which may involve suffering. That's marriage. Slaves are told to submit to even harsh masters who beat them, which is certainly suffering. That's job. And Christians are told to submit to the ungodly emperor and governers, who may be unjust. That's country. All of those may involve suffering. And clearly the whole passage is all about Christians being called to suffer (I mean it's woven throughout).

 

[pzsl3j]

One other thing I would like to ad - I not trying to pick on the ladies here. I realize there are many good Christian women(and non christian women) who understand their husbands needs and do their very best to please him - thank God for women like you or our divorce rates would be much higher.

My mother was one of those women - my father and I talked openly about sexual issues before I got married and according to him my mother was very faithful to my Dad in that area and I am greatful for that example.

But there is that segment of women - I don't know what the percentage is, that either willfully deny their husbands or use sex as tool to manipulate their husbands...these are the ones I speak of.

I also realize as one poster pointed out - and I also have read - sometimes the shoe is on the other foot and some men deny their wives...but this is definitely the exception and no the norm when it comes to male/female issues.

 

[RoboOp]

Having said all that above, I don't mean that any of it is easy. But if you want to know what the Bible says, that's what it says.

Of course the first thing is to have a relationship with God through Jesus.

He will help us though our trials, and help us to obey Him as we seek first His kingdom and His righteousness. (Notice, His righteousness.)

 

[pzsl3j]

You are wrong, and apparently trying to justify divorce by trying to make "equivalents", with reasoning.

You are wrong in saying that God never calls us to suffer in marriage, in jobs, or in country. There are Bible verses on all three of those.

In fact you can find it all in one passage. I'll simply highlight the parts that I want you to see, in this passage 1 Peter 2:13 - 3:17:

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

22 “He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”[e]
23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25 For “you were like sheep going astray,”[f] but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

3 Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Suffering for Doing Good

8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10 For,

“Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep their tongue from evil
and their lips from deceitful speech.
11 They must turn from evil and do good;
they must seek peace and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”[g]
13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear their threats[h]; do not be frightened.” 15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

Notice wives are told to submit to unbelieving husbands (some translations say "who obey not the word"), which may involve suffering. That's marriage. Slaves are told to submit to even harsh masters who beat them, which is certainly suffering. That's job. And Christians are told to submit to the ungodly emperor and governers, who may be unjust. That's country. All of those may involve suffering. And clearly the whole passage is all about Christians being called to suffer (I mean it's woven throughout).

1 Corinthians 7:21
Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so.

Yes it is good to suffer for doing good, to suffer for being a Christian - agree 100% and I see that clearly in these passages. Also while slaves are commanded to obey their harsh masters - in I Corinthians 7 Paul exhorts them to gain their freedom if they can.

Yes we are to submit to the ungodly authorities agreed - but there are certain rights that God has given man that trump the authorities - such as when his home or family are threatened by his Goverment.''

I also agree even in marriage we may have suffer with many issues our spouses have...they may have lots of annoying traits as we all due...but the willful thoughtful denyal of sex is fraud within marriage in my opinion...it is the denyal of the very act that defines marriages and I still believe is grounds for divorce


I am curious - under your suffering argument - would you advice a woman to suffer the daily beatings of her husband and stay married to him?

 

[RoboOp]

1 Corinthians 7:21
Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so.

Yes it is good to suffer for doing good, to suffer for being a Christian - agree 100% and I see that clearly in these passages. Also while slaves are commanded to obey their harsh masters - in I Corinthians 7 Paul exhorts them to gain their freedom if they can.

Yes we are to submit to the ungodly authorities agreed - but there are certain rights that God has given man that trump the authorities - such as when his home or family are threatened by his Goverment.''

I also agree even in marriage we may have suffer with many issues our spouses have...they may have lots of annoying traits as we all due...but the willful thoughtful denyal of sex is fraud within marriage in my opinion...it is the denyal of the very act that defines marriages and I still believe is grounds for divorce


I am curious - under your suffering argument - would you advice a woman to suffer the daily beatings of her husband and stay married to him?

I would advise such a woman to get out of the house but I wouldn't tell her to file a divorce. 1 Cor 7:10:

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

As for depriving, it sounds like your'e talking about chronic total deprivation of sexual needs, as in like months or years. That's unimaginable but it does happen.

I pity both cases and try not to judge. But if you're asking if the Bible makes all these extra allowances for divorce, sorry I don't see it. Jesus seemed pretty clear about there being only one exception/allowance (oh and in 1 Cor 7 Paul says if you're deserted by an unbeliever then you're not bound). Again I'm not judging anyone but if you're asking what the Bible says that's what it says.

In real circumstances, what often happens in such a bad marriage is that the other spouse will eventually do the divorce, and move on with another person, and then you're free (and can have a much clearer conscience that you obeyed God and were freed on His timing). Sorry don't mean to be harsh or judge anyone, but those are my honest answers from the Bible.

It seems that you're seeking justification to divorce on the basis of deprivation of sexual needs. If I were not a Christian, I'd say yes absolutely -- why would I go on in such a situation. But as a Christian.......... well...

Well I'll tell you this. I know a man whose wife deprived him totally for almost a year. It was hard for him of course. But he still tried to obey God. Then finally she left him, and divorced him, and was with other men, and then he felt free, with a clear conscience.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[RoboOp]

Course there are other things that should be asked, or looked at, to try to solve such a problem.

Is the woman a true believer?

Is the man a true believer?

If so, try to get Biblical counseling/help.

If not, hopefully the unbelieving one can be won over -- or if not, and it's too much suffering, then hopefully God will free the believing spouse from that suffering eventually by the unbelieving one leaving.

 

[pzsl3j]

Course there are other things that should be asked, or looked at, to try to solve such a problem.

Is the woman a true believer?

Is the man a true believer?

If so, try to get Biblical counseling/help.

If not, hopefully the unbelieving one can be won over -- or if not, and it's too much suffering, then hopefully God will free the believing spouse from that suffering eventually by the unbelieving one leaving.

I have been raised in church and know the Bible well...and I am familar with the traditional two reasons you mentioned(one by Christ about infidelity) and one by Paul about abandonment. I understand and respect your position.

I just have never seen this before now...with the almost complete deprivation and had never really considered it before as to divorce.

Also on the abuse side...I realize the scriptures give no clear indicator it, so its the same deal..if it does not mention it then its not an exception.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree as brothers in Christ on this issue. Not to spawn a rabit trail(LOL) but I also believe in divorce for chronic abuse(I am not talking one incident - but a pattern of it)..I know based on your comments you only believe in seperation not divorce for such issues.

Good conversation though

 

[jandian]

I empathize with anyone who has a healthy appetite for sex and a spouse who is completely opposite or nil. i think it can be very distressing and not to be treated with scant courtesy. The thing is, though God allows for divorce , He doesn't allow it without saying that it is for "hardness of heart" even for infidelity.

The real reason for divorce is hardness of heart. While your situation is extremely challenging, it would be wise to spend some time abandoning yourself to God in His presence. there you can find strength to pursue your wife within your marriage and the patience and strength to wait for her. Before you come to such a decision, exhaust application of all God's advice with all your heart. Dwell with her according to knowledge and see where to power of God's love leads.

It may take your all, but God will be your strength when you are weak if you let Him.

I pray in the end you will have a powerful testimony.

 

[VikkiKate89]

Yikes. I'm about to entered married life and never thought of sex like this. Rich and I have talked about our future and our views on sex after marriage, and we've always seen sex as an expression of love, not as a way of "keeping the other from sinning." I mean what fun is sex if one of you is just going through the motions to keep you happy or "from sinning"? Personally I'd rather not have it all than force my husband to put out when he doesn't want to. And I know I wouldn't want that sort of pressure from him if I wasn't in the mood for whatever reason. Isn't expecting your partner to put out at your whim just as selfish?

 

[pzsl3j]

Yikes. I'm about to entered married life and never thought of sex like this. Rich and I have talked about our future and our views on sex after marriage, and we've always seen sex as an expression of love, not as a way of "keeping the other from sinning." I mean what fun is sex if one of you is just going through the motions to keep you happy or "from sinning"? Personally I'd rather not have it all than force my husband to put out when he doesn't want to. And I know I wouldn't want that sort of pressure from him if I wasn't in the mood for whatever reason. Isn't expecting your partner to put out at your whim just as selfish?

Thats a common misconception...it really comes down is sex a need or a want? There is a great debate within Christianity about it...but I think based on Paul's commands the Bible makes sex a need within the context of marriage.

When you are in the throngs of new love - you don't even have to think about it - you just do it naturally. But as your relationship matures - you realize that a mature sex life, just like a mature love, is based on a conscious choice, not on feeling.

And you are coming at sex from the viewpoint of a woman - and women generally(not all..but most) view sex through the lenses of feelings, but there are biolgical, physical and emotional needs that need to be met. You will find as your relationship matures - you are not always going to be in the mood at same time...and if you wait for you both to be in mood at same time - you won't be having sex near as often -and the one with the higher libido will suffer for it.

No man wants to make love to his wife and it feel forced on that you are exactly correct - but what the Bible calls for is - when your husband starts kissing on you and you know he is in the mood, unless you hindered by some physical ailement you need to gracisously and lovingly receive him.

We once had a marriage counselor visit our church and speak to the adult married couples class. I will never forget what he said about sex in marriage. He said while on an individual level sex is not a need - like something you will die without, he said on a marriage level, no or little sex will kill a marriage. If you don't want to have sex 3 to 4 times a week, then don't get married.

He also said Biblically speaking the frequency of sex is determined(within reason - he never clarified what reason meant) - by the person with the highest libido. He said Biblically speaking if you as the lower libido person are putting the other off - or trying to make them wait for your schedule you are putting them in a tempting position and you are in direct violation of God's commands concerning your marriage.

 

[pzsl3j]

I empathize with anyone who has a healthy appetite for sex and a spouse who is completely opposite or nil. i think it can be very distressing and not to be treated with scant courtesy. The thing is, though God allows for divorce , He doesn't allow it without saying that it is for "hardness of heart" even for infidelity.

The real reason for divorce is hardness of heart. While your situation is extremely challenging, it would be wise to spend some time abandoning yourself to God in His presence. there you can find strength to pursue your wife within your marriage and the patience and strength to wait for her. Before you come to such a decision, exhaust application of all God's advice with all your heart. Dwell with her according to knowledge and see where to power of God's love leads.

It may take your all, but God will be your strength when you are weak if you let Him.

I pray in the end you will have a powerful testimony.

Thank you for your kind words and emphathy. I know it may seem like it from my earlier statements - but I am not ready to divorce my wife. I just get very frustrated sometimes. I know I can't change her, I can only change myself. I also know though that my needs are normal and are not going to just poof away because I want them too or she wants them too.

Quite honestly in reference to what the other gentlemen said..my wife in no way would ever divorce me. She is happy(by her own frequent admissions to me and others) with things as they are and she has told me that many times. She knows I am good husband and decent man that will always be there for her. She by her own admission does not have the same libido I do and she finds it hard to make herself available when she is not in the mood.

And trust me its not for lack of me trying different things. Its just the fact she has a lot of mood swings, anxiety issues and other physical issues. She has said she will try to move to some middle ground with me, but I have yet to see it occur. In the past she thought whomever had the lowest libido should determine how often people have relations...because after all should'nt both people be in the mood everytime you have relations(that was her thought)?

Then we saw a marriage counselor in addition to our Pastor and she realized that was wrong, or at least she said that in counseling. The problem is nothing changed after counseling.

You see by her being happy what I mean is this - she is happy for us just to cuddle on the couch together for me to play with her hair and take care of her when she is not feeling well. She is happy and content just with my companionship..and occasionally, about 7 or 8 times a year she is actually in the mood to have sex.

She wishes I felt the same...that that would be enough and she has a hard time understanding I need to have sex at least 3 times a week.

So yes I will continue to pray..thank you

 

[CC_Bride]

Its not unfaithfulness, its selfishness and manipulative.

Of course if theres something really serious going on in the marriage like abuse or some unresolved outside the bedroom matter, then that needs to be fixed before reconciliation occurs in the bedroom. Sometimes reconcilation may start in the bedroom but not the majority of it.

 

[episcopotic]

One thing that's worthwhile keeping in mind is that libido is a fragile thing. The truth is contrary to fictional portrayals in which everybody's ready to do it all the time, regardless of circumstance. The average (wo)man in movies, if my stopwatch and spreadsheet are correct, requires less than 2 seconds to decide on and engage in sex, and only ever has difficulties if they're in a coming-of-age story.

Stress, sleep deprivation, depression, disease, nutritional deficiencies, hormonal imbalances, even the use of over-the-counter antihistamines - it doesn't take much to kill a libido. By no means are any of these situations equivalent to unfaithfulness, unless a partner is intentionally engaging in an activity that kills libido, but then the problem is worse than simply not wanting to do it.

Nobody sleeps around because they missed a good night's sleep, but a man's circulating testosterone can be cut in half by a bad day at work. Over a period of years, this can result in a pathologically low libido. Compassion, rather than a comparison to infidelity, is necessary.