-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
T
LOL. Actually, the translators available on the web are notoriously bad. I wouldn't call myself "fluent" in Biblical Hebrew, but I took it for several years, and then taught it, so my level may be higher than your typical layperson, probably even higher than most ordained ministers.
That and $1.75 gets me a cup of coffee.
That and $1.75 gets me a cup of coffee.
T
I understand that you were asking Cheese, but I hope it's okay if I offer an answer.
An allegory is a story in which items in the story represent other things. Characters in an allegory might be actual, "real" people, or they could be completely fictional. Or anywhere in between. In the best cases, an allegory has many levels of meanings. The first level may be historically accurate, but need not be.
I would not say that the entire book of Genesis is one big allegory, but I would say that it is a collection of stories, some which are based on fact, and some which are extended allegories with multiple levels.
I hope that helps.
An allegory is a story in which items in the story represent other things. Characters in an allegory might be actual, "real" people, or they could be completely fictional. Or anywhere in between. In the best cases, an allegory has many levels of meanings. The first level may be historically accurate, but need not be.
I would not say that the entire book of Genesis is one big allegory, but I would say that it is a collection of stories, some which are based on fact, and some which are extended allegories with multiple levels.
I hope that helps.
T
People who don't "believe" in evolution don't realize that it is evolution that causes diversity such as races (in humans), breeds (in animals) or strains (in other life forms).
It always bugs me when people talk about "believing in" evolution, because evolution does not require faith -- it's like 2+2=4. You don't say "I believe that 2+2=4." You know it or you don't. But there is one similarity.
Sometimes I say to my atheist friends, when they tell me, "I don't believe in God," I say, "That's okay, he believes in you." To an extent, evolution's the same way. Evolution trucked right along for billions of years before any human had a clue what was going on. Darwin started to figure it out (though he didn't have everything right ... there was a lot incomplete in his theory, and he knew it), and a lot of the world questioned him. Pretty soon, most of the population that has more than two brain cells to rub together realizes, yup, that's right. 2+2 is indeed 4.
A person is not going to be able to explain why they think that 2+2=5, except to point to their interpretation of Scripture. If you try to tell them their interpretation of Scripture is wrong, they call you a heretic. Proof: this thread.
It always bugs me when people talk about "believing in" evolution, because evolution does not require faith -- it's like 2+2=4. You don't say "I believe that 2+2=4." You know it or you don't. But there is one similarity.
Sometimes I say to my atheist friends, when they tell me, "I don't believe in God," I say, "That's okay, he believes in you." To an extent, evolution's the same way. Evolution trucked right along for billions of years before any human had a clue what was going on. Darwin started to figure it out (though he didn't have everything right ... there was a lot incomplete in his theory, and he knew it), and a lot of the world questioned him. Pretty soon, most of the population that has more than two brain cells to rub together realizes, yup, that's right. 2+2 is indeed 4.
A person is not going to be able to explain why they think that 2+2=5, except to point to their interpretation of Scripture. If you try to tell them their interpretation of Scripture is wrong, they call you a heretic. Proof: this thread.
T
I should clarify. I believe that God has created diversity. I understand that evolution is the vehicle by which God has done this. I want to clarify, because re-reading that, it almost sounded like I was replacing God with evolution, and that's what they always accuse us of, so I wanted to make sure I was clear.
T
Are you offering this as evidence to support Biblical literalism or Biblical allegory?
Because it seems to me clear that this, too, is poetic speech. It doesn't particularly "contradict" either of the Genesis stories, but it seems to me that if you try to take all 3 of them literally, you're really doing exegetical gymnastics.
Because it seems to me clear that this, too, is poetic speech. It doesn't particularly "contradict" either of the Genesis stories, but it seems to me that if you try to take all 3 of them literally, you're really doing exegetical gymnastics.
T
I've heard two theories on this.
One is that the dino fossils were planted by Satan to deceive us, to make us think that the world is older than it actually is. I'm not sure why Satan would have done that. I mean, really, if the whole point was to do something that contradicted a literal interpretation of Scripture, surely he could have found an easier way. Heck, he would have planted way more obvious evidence -- perhaps something that wouldn't have taken us 6000 years to notice -- if that was his plan. Ya think? So this theory is just stupid, logically, and fails on that level.
The other theory is that God planted them to make this world look older than it is. This theory is even worse than the other, because it makes God out to be a liar. If have no problem believing that God could create an entire universe in 6 days, if he wanted to. If he had, though, (and if, as I believe, God is good, without any evil in him) he would have created a world that would appear the same as it actually was. After 100 years, it would appear to be 100 years old. After 1,000 years, it would appear to be 1,000 years old. For God to have created a world that "looked like" it was billions of years old after only a few days makes God out to be a trickster, a fool, and worthy of neither worship nor praise.
Why anyone would want to believe in such a god (let alone worship one) is beyond me. And yet, this is exactly what they do.
I wish someone would explain to me why they would rather worship a lying trickster god who plays mean tricks than a Good and Loving God who speaks in parables. I mean, if they want to worship a lying trickster god, that's fine ... just not sure I like the fact that they claim it's "Christianity," let alone them trying to exclude me from "Christianity" just because I prefer my God to be good rather than evil. Theirs is NOT the God that Jesus told us about.
One is that the dino fossils were planted by Satan to deceive us, to make us think that the world is older than it actually is. I'm not sure why Satan would have done that. I mean, really, if the whole point was to do something that contradicted a literal interpretation of Scripture, surely he could have found an easier way. Heck, he would have planted way more obvious evidence -- perhaps something that wouldn't have taken us 6000 years to notice -- if that was his plan. Ya think? So this theory is just stupid, logically, and fails on that level.
The other theory is that God planted them to make this world look older than it is. This theory is even worse than the other, because it makes God out to be a liar. If have no problem believing that God could create an entire universe in 6 days, if he wanted to. If he had, though, (and if, as I believe, God is good, without any evil in him) he would have created a world that would appear the same as it actually was. After 100 years, it would appear to be 100 years old. After 1,000 years, it would appear to be 1,000 years old. For God to have created a world that "looked like" it was billions of years old after only a few days makes God out to be a trickster, a fool, and worthy of neither worship nor praise.
Why anyone would want to believe in such a god (let alone worship one) is beyond me. And yet, this is exactly what they do.
I wish someone would explain to me why they would rather worship a lying trickster god who plays mean tricks than a Good and Loving God who speaks in parables. I mean, if they want to worship a lying trickster god, that's fine ... just not sure I like the fact that they claim it's "Christianity," let alone them trying to exclude me from "Christianity" just because I prefer my God to be good rather than evil. Theirs is NOT the God that Jesus told us about.
T
I actually did a grad paper on the book of Job. The poem part (between the two dialogues with God and Satan) was written much earlier -- may even be some of the oldest writing in existence, let alone in the Bible. It stood alone as Job, asking God why he was suffering, three mortals trying to tell him why, and then God, taking those 3 mortals to task for deigning to think they know God's Will, and, though God never answers Job's Question, he answers Job's Cry. And ultimately, that is what we all want in suffering. Ultimately, when you have lost someone you love, or are in a dark place from another similar tragedy, you might ask, "Why is this happening to me," but if someone told you the real reason, that wouldn't help any.
"Why did my brother die?"
"He had a horrible disease that slowly ate at his muscles, until his body could no longer sustain him."
Does that answer provide me any comfort in my sorrow? No.
"I am God. I created everything. I created you, and I created your brother, and I will work all things for Good."
Does that answer provide me comfort? You bet your tukus it does.
So that epic poem is not only one of the oldest examples of human writing we have, it is also profoundly theological, a lesson that is still as poignant and important today as it was thousands of years ago, and one that is forgotten too often.
The story around it (the conversation between God and Satan, where Satan talks God into letting him mess with Job, and then the epilogue) was a much later redaction. One of the things that bugs me about it is that whoever wrote it--whoever thought the poem needed redacting--totally missed the point of the original poem. They were stuck with the "why." They wanted to explain what happened to Job, and why it happened. A part of me wants to wag a finger at the ancient Hebrew priests for keeping this redaction, and not tossing it out. But then, all Scripture is inspired, and God has reasons for including this, whether I know or understand those reasons or not.
And that was all WAY off topic, but I enjoy teaching God's Word, and I know many on this board do appreciate such instruction, as I appreciate it when others provide me with new ways of understanding Scripture (as long as those interpretations don't contradict who God is).
God is good, all the time.
"Why did my brother die?"
"He had a horrible disease that slowly ate at his muscles, until his body could no longer sustain him."
Does that answer provide me any comfort in my sorrow? No.
"I am God. I created everything. I created you, and I created your brother, and I will work all things for Good."
Does that answer provide me comfort? You bet your tukus it does.
So that epic poem is not only one of the oldest examples of human writing we have, it is also profoundly theological, a lesson that is still as poignant and important today as it was thousands of years ago, and one that is forgotten too often.
The story around it (the conversation between God and Satan, where Satan talks God into letting him mess with Job, and then the epilogue) was a much later redaction. One of the things that bugs me about it is that whoever wrote it--whoever thought the poem needed redacting--totally missed the point of the original poem. They were stuck with the "why." They wanted to explain what happened to Job, and why it happened. A part of me wants to wag a finger at the ancient Hebrew priests for keeping this redaction, and not tossing it out. But then, all Scripture is inspired, and God has reasons for including this, whether I know or understand those reasons or not.
And that was all WAY off topic, but I enjoy teaching God's Word, and I know many on this board do appreciate such instruction, as I appreciate it when others provide me with new ways of understanding Scripture (as long as those interpretations don't contradict who God is).
God is good, all the time.