"Gay-Friendly" Churches

[TheGrungeDiva]

I was thinking about this the other day. I know we've been arguing about this a lot lately, but it seems most of us here on CC are coming to a sort of ... well, not an agreement, but a truce. It seems that those who are more liberal, are leaning more towards "yes, it is a sin, but we shouldn't judge ... love the sinner, hate the sin," and those who are more conservative / traditional are leaning more towards, "yes, it's wrong, but it's no more wrong than any other sin, so we shouldn't pick it out for special treatment.

It seems to me that as soon as these two sides start coming together, start almost reaching a truce, someone will bring up, "Yes, but what about those churches that are ordaining gay ministers?"

And here's my thinking on that.

There are a lot of churches (denominations) out there who teach things that I think are wrong, that go against the Bible as I understand it. I could bring up a lot of examples, but probably one of the best is the churches who celebrate "closed communion." Catholics and some Lutherans say that if you are not a member of their denomination (some would even say you have to be a member of that particular parish) you may not partake in the Eucharist (communion). Now, that seems so very wrong, and not at all what Jesus would want. Jesus shared that meal with his disciples -- including one who was that very night going to betray him, and another who was going to deny him three times over the next 12 hours. If Jesus could share this meal with these enemies, certainly we should celebrate the meal with anyone who wants to come. After all, it is not "our" table to allow or deny attendance: it is God's.

But Catholic and Lutherans teach differently, and have very good reasons for teaching so. (They believe that if you partake of the sacrament without "right understanding" you do so to your own damnation, so it is really out of love for the non-member, that they don't want that person unwillingly damning themselves ... maybe one of my Catholic or Lutheran friends can explain it better than that.) I disagree with them, but I'm not about to tell them that they're "not allowed" to have their own rules in their own denomination. When I worship at a Catholic Church, or at a Lutheran church that has this rule, I abide by their guidelines, and out of respect for them, do not partake in their Eucharist. I might grumble a little, but ultimately, I have no right to tell another church what to do.

I wonder if we can be the same with these churches that allow for gays -- even openly gay ministers? I could even see saying, "Well, they certainly aren't Christian," -- but then, Unitarians aren't Christian, and they have churches, so I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Can we "live and let live," knowing that these denominations may be completely wrong, even grumbling about it, but in the end allowing them to operate as they see fit?

Open to hearing what others have to say.

 

[murraymuzz]

As a catholic, we have a very unique view of the eucharist, it is our most blessed sacrament as we believe that it contains the real presence of Jesus, so when you partake in the eucharist, you are literally uniting yourself to the trinity, now with that in mind, catholics themselves should not be taking the eucharist unless they are in a state of grace, and to be in that state you must have been absolved of your mortal sins otherwise that is considered desecration of the eucharist.
Mortal sins are defined as the breaking of the ten commandments:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) defines these sins as grave matter:
(This is not necessarily all of the possible grave matters.)
Abortion
Adulation of another's grave faults if it makes one an accomplice in another's vices or grave sins, but it is not grave when it only seeks to be agreeable, to avoid evil, to meet a need, or to obtain legitimate advantages.
Adultery
Blasphemy
Defrauding a worker of his wages
Deliberate failure of the Sunday obligation
Divination, magic, and sorcery
Divorce
Drug Abuse
Endangering their own and others' safety by drunkenness or a love of speed at sea, on the road, or in the air
Envy
Euthanasia
Extreme Anger
False witness
Fornication
Gluttony
Hatred of a neighbor/to deliberately desire him or her great harm
Homosexual acts
Incest
Lying
Murder (intentional homicide)
Perjury and False Oaths
Pornography
Prostitution
Rape
Rich nation's refusal to aid those which are unable to ensure the means of their development by themselves
Sacrilege
Scandal
Suicide
Terrorism that threatens, wounds and kills indiscriminately
Unfair wagers and cheating at games

So from a Catholic perspective Homosexuality is considered a mortal sin, and when you are cut off from Gods grace you are damned to hell, so the reason why the Catholic church has always been against homosexuality is because it is endangering a persons soul and will damn them, so we try to oppose it wherever it may be occuring as a matter of charity, not because we are hateful and intolerant.

 

[Foxxtale]

there is a huge problem with churches not teaching the truth. And while this doesn't ONLY cover homosexuality, this is a serious issue that has arisen.

In Lutheran churches, pastors need to be ordained because what a pastor teaches is often regarded as truth by the members of the church that do not know the truth for themselves. This is why the burden that rests on a pastor's shoulders is so great - if they are wrong, they are screwing with the salvation of others. As such, any pastor preaching that homosexuality is not a sin risks not only his own salvation, but that of his entire church!

there is no question what the bible says about homosexuality. Any pastor that chooses to ignore this part of the bible is horribly wrong. Any church that preaches something other than that which is clearly written is putting their entire congregation at risk.

In 1 Timothy 5: 19-20, Paul clearly states what we are to do with those that lead their congregations astray:
"Do not accept an accusation against an elder (pastor) unless it can be confirmed by two or three witnesses. 5:20 Those guilty of sin must be rebuked before all, as a warning to the rest. "

messing with others' salvation is no joke.

 

[aprilandkeion]

God created boy(adam) and girl(eve). He did not create gay and lesbian it was satan.

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

What a sad thing indeed when the church becomes disobedient to the Word of God and allows such behavior within the body of believers. I shudder to think that those who are walking in the light are allowing such behavior to continue amongst the congregation. The Word of God is very clear about homosexuality and yet many have the attitude to "live and let live."
If they want to start their own churches that allow this wickedness then let them do as they see fit, but I will not attend any church that allows this or any disobedience within it's congregation. (Come out from among them and be ye seperate)
This is the failure of the church today as they have become more worldly and walking after the flesh instead of walking after the spirit and allowing this wickedness to continue within the congregation.
Scripture says,
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

If we as believers are not putting away that wicked person that is continuing in this type of sin from amongst us doesn't it show we are being disobedient to the Word of God?

Now consider the following verses.

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of a harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to a harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

 

[psychomom]

Would we say, "Well, the pastor is a serial killer/adulterer/addicted to porn/drug addict/thief/slanderer/alcoholic/liar...etc. But hey- live and let live!"?
If you know someone is involved in ongoing sin...does tolerance make it okay?? Would we ask anyone like this to lead a flock?

~ellie

 

[shininglight]

Would we say, "Well, the pastor is a serial killer/adulterer/addicted to porn/drug addict/thief/slanderer/alcoholic/liar...etc. But hey- live and let live!"?
If you know someone is involved in ongoing sin...does tolerance make it okay?? Would we ask anyone like this to lead a flock?

~ellie

Exactly, you cant be living a sinful life style and still be a pastor. You have to lead by example and maintain your credibility. I believe maybe someone can be a pastor and struggle with homosexual desires (we all have things we struggle with) but he cant be embracing and living that life style.

 

[Liz01]

I think that we need to call good to the good and bad to the bad and not try to justify the bad things that they do.

If someone is doing something bad that doesnt mean that we should do the same.

And as Christianwarrior said, in bible is this versicle :
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 "But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Would we say, "Well, the pastor is a serial killer/adulterer/addicted to porn/drug addict/thief/slanderer/alcoholic/liar...etc. But hey- live and let live!"?

If a pastor or some other religious leader were a serial killer, I would have a problem with that because there are victims that need to be protected. Murder is not just a sin, but it is also a crime, and therefore needs to be prosecuted as such.

Porn is a really tough one. I can see arguments from both sides. Child porn is ABSOLUTELY a crime, and anyone who engages in it, IMHO, the punishment should be to have their genitals removed, end of story. But porn where the object is a "consenting adult" -- Like I said, on the one hand, I do believe in the US constitution's rights to freedom; on the other, I hear that a lot of women who are in that industry are victimized and stuck. So it's a really tough issue. It's absolutely a sin, but I'm not convinced it's a crime, as long as the object is a "consenting adult," as they say.

As for the other things you pointed out, I actually know instances of all of them, and unless the pastor / minister / priest is one in one's own church / denomination, I don't think one has a right to judge. It is up to the judicial system(s) of that particular denomination.

For example, I know a lot of pastors who are addicted to caffeine, which is a drug. I have yet to hear of anyone "defrock" a pastor out because they won't quit drinking coffee.

In other countries (I'm thinking of Africa and the Middle East primarily) polygamy is allowed. Religious leaders often have multiple wives. Who am I -- or who are you -- to tell that person that it's not okay? They are following their own culture, and sure, I think it's a sin, and I'm not going to let my own husband pick up some tart, but I'm also not going to tell another church that they can't do that.

This is my point of this thread. I'm not asking "is homosexuality wrong." While there are still people on this board who are saying it isn't a sin, I think the majority here accept that it is a sin. I'm asking for feedback about how we deal with other religions and their morality. Do we have a right to point fingers at Jews for rejecting Jesus? At Mormons for their false doctrines? Can we not say, "I do not agree," but, as I said, "live and let live"?

 

[tribesman]

I am all for closed communion. And I do not desire to take communion when visiting "other" churches (other than those who share my beliefs).

As for the poll, I voted They're wrong, but if they want to call themselves "churches" that's their business..

There are various kinds of "churches" of highly suspicious character (seen from a traditional christian viewpoint). All using the name "church". I find it too far fledged to try to pass laws that forbids people to call their organization "church".

 

[meecha]

I am all for closed communion. And I do not desire to take communion when visiting "other" churches (other than those who share my beliefs).

As for the poll, I voted They're wrong, but if they want to call themselves "churches" that's their business..

There are various kinds of "churches" of highly suspicious character (seen from a traditional christian viewpoint). All using the name "church". I find it too far fledged to try to pass laws that forbids people to call their organization "church".

if you don't know who the elect are ...how can do you come to the idea of closed communion?

 

[tribesman]

if you don't know who the elect are ...how can do you come to the idea of closed communion?

How do you make that connection and what has your question to do with the thread?

Netiquette, please.

 

[simplyme_bekah]

Ever just read a thread and feel the urge to pray that Gods truth be revealed to each and every one of us? I did and I prayed *grinz*

 

[shininglight]

Well, I believe all sin separates us from God but I dont believe all sin is equally bad. I dont believe being addicted to caffeine (which indeed is bad) is as abominable as homosexuality. There....I said it. I know people have the attitude that all sin is equally bad and horrendous but I don't share that belief. You think telling a white lie (honey that dress doesn't make you look fat) is as bad as murder? You think stealing a soda from a convenient store is just as bad as molesting a child? Yes, I know all sin is bad in Gods eyes and all sin leads to hell if you don't have a Savior, but a line has to be drawn somewhere....because you cant expect some one to be perfect in order to be a preacher or we wouldn't have any preachers, but you cant just allow anyone to be a preacher either.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Well, I believe all sin separates us from God but I dont believe all sin is equally bad. {snip} you cant expect some one to be perfect in order to be a preacher or we wouldn't have any preachers, but you cant just allow anyone to be a preacher either.

First of all, thank you for this. I appreciate your honesty and frankness, and how you state your views without being condescending or insulting to those with whom you disagree.

Now, let me see if I understand correctly what you are saying. If I am incorrect in summarizing your views here, please let me know. I'm not trying to mock you at all, I just want to make sure I understand you.

1. All sin separates us from God, but not all sin is "equal" in God's eyes.
2. There are some sins which, if committed, would bar a person from being a preacher, and some sins which would not, based on the "badness" of the sin.

Again, if this is not what you are saying, please explain to me where I'm missing your point. If I have summarized your point correctly, let me ask a few more questions:

1. By whose or what authority to you believe the above?
2. Assuming the above is true (which, actually, I think makes sense and would agree ... as far as it goes) .... what is the scale or measuring stick for judging the "badness" of sins? What makes one sin worse than another? Who gets to decide? Is there a point system?
3. If you cannot point to an objective Scriptural means of measuring one sin against another, what happens if your ranking of a sin differs from another devout person's ranking of that same sin? How do you decide which of you is "right," if there is no Scripture to support either one of you?

Of course, all of this is off topic from the thread, because I am referring to churches that don't think homosexuality is a sin at all (or would assign it a "sin value" of zero in this alleged point value system). But I think you have raised an excellent model for discussion, and I would like to explore it further.

Thanks again.

 

[Foxxtale]

all sins are equal, but not all people will be judged on the same scale apparently...

"Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." (James 3:1)

 

[shininglight]

First of all, thank you for this. I appreciate your honesty and frankness, and how you state your views without being condescending or insulting to those with whom you disagree.

Now, let me see if I understand correctly what you are saying. If I am incorrect in summarizing your views here, please let me know. I'm not trying to mock you at all, I just want to make sure I understand you.

1. All sin separates us from God, but not all sin is "equal" in God's eyes.
2. There are some sins which, if committed, would bar a person from being a preacher, and some sins which would not, based on the "badness" of the sin.

Again, if this is not what you are saying, please explain to me where I'm missing your point. If I have summarized your point correctly, let me ask a few more questions:

1. By whose or what authority to you believe the above?
2. Assuming the above is true (which, actually, I think makes sense and would agree ... as far as it goes) .... what is the scale or measuring stick for judging the "badness" of sins? What makes one sin worse than another? Who gets to decide? Is there a point system?
3. If you cannot point to an objective Scriptural means of measuring one sin against another, what happens if your ranking of a sin differs from another devout person's ranking of that same sin? How do you decide which of you is "right," if there is no Scripture to support either one of you?

Of course, all of this is off topic from the thread, because I am referring to churches that don't think homosexuality is a sin at all (or would assign it a "sin value" of zero in this alleged point value system). But I think you have raised an excellent model for discussion, and I would like to explore it further.

Thanks again.

Ok, first I will post verses that lead me to believe that not all sin is equal.

Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

The fact that some will receive greater damnation proves to me that some are worse sinners.

Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Why will it be more tolerable for some than for others in the day of judgment if all sin is the same?

Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

I dont see how a preacher who practices sin that will prevent someone from entering into the kingdom of heaven can have any credibility as a preacher. I'm not saying a preacher who "commits" one of these sins, but a preacher who "practices" these sins or lives that kind of life style.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do (this means "practice" or "habitual" in the greek) such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I believe someone who struggles with homosexual desires can be a preacher, even if they have fallen into temptation at times, but they cannot be living and embracing that life style or teaching others to do so.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Shining:

Thank you very much! You answered the first of my questions:

1. By whose or what authority to you believe the above?

I think the Scripture you posted supports your assertion, and will accept it.

But I still have two more questions:

2. What is the scale or measuring stick for judging the "badness" of sins? What makes one sin worse than another? Who gets to decide? Is there a point system?
3. If you cannot point to an objective Scriptural means of measuring one sin against another, what happens if your ranking of a sin differs from another devout person's ranking of that same sin? How do you decide which of you is "right," if there is no Scripture to support either one of you?

You put forward a few examples: Murder is worse than telling a white lie. Child sexual abuse is worse than gossiping. I will accept those. And I know what criteria I use to make those decisions, but I'm curious what criteria you use.

Then you say homosexuality is worse than being addicted to coffee. Not sure if, using the criterion I use, that still fits. So that's why I was wondering.

Thanks again. I feel like we're making some real progress here.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

all sins are equal, but not all people will be judged on the same scale apparently...

"Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." (James 3:1)

I'm not sure if you're asserting that you think all sins are equal here, or if you're "mocking" that assertion.

If it's the former, can you please provide Scripture that supports the notion that all sins are equal? Yes, the wage of sin is death, so to a point, one death cannot be "more" than another. But Shining provided some compelling Scripture to indicate that some sins seem to be worse than others. Unless you have some Scripture to indicate otherwise, I think shining is right here.

 

[shininglight]

Shining:

Thank you very much! You answered the first of my questions:


I think the Scripture you posted supports your assertion, and will accept it.

But I still have two more questions:


You put forward a few examples: Murder is worse than telling a white lie. Child sexual abuse is worse than gossiping. I will accept those. And I know what criteria I use to make those decisions, but I'm curious what criteria you use.

Then you say homosexuality is worse than being addicted to coffee. Not sure if, using the criterion I use, that still fits. So that's why I was wondering.

Thanks again. I feel like we're making some real progress here.

I'm going to take a guess at what criteria you use. You think of sins that hurt others as being worse than sins that only seemingly hurt yourself? I may be wrong in thinking that, but if I'm right, I think of homosexuality as a sin that hurts others because they are defiling their homosexual partner and vice versa.

I think the below verses pretty much sum up the mac daddy of sins though. I think if a person practices any of the following then they probably shouldn't be preaching. I dont really see being addicted to coffee in there unless you want to include that with witchcraft which means "medication", but I think thats a real stretch.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

By the way, you are being too nice right now....you are scaring me lol