Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[Philos]

We need to be unbias except to truth, and we need to take Scriptures as it is and not twist them in tolerance of our denominational error.

With that said, I've heard many times of Catholics and Protestants arguing on Matthew 16, what Jesus meant when He said "You are Peter, and on this Rock I shall build my church."

Catholics say Peter is the foundation of the Church. Protestants say Peter's confession is the foundation of the Church. I think the very fact that Jesus said Simon's confession was not by flesh and blood but by revelation from God should be mentioned.

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
-Revelation 21:14

I hear ALL THE TIME of Protestants coming against the doctrine of Peter being the foundation and saying it was his confession, but aren't the twelve apostles the foundation of the City of New Jerusalem? If that is the case, Jesus probably did mean exactly what He said, Simon is to be called the Rock, and on this Rock He would build His church.

This is what I was talking about, people coming against error yet ignoring the Scriptures to allow tolerance in their own denominations. It's impartial and it's completely Ungodly and unrighteous. Not only that, James wrote to be impartial is to commit judgment with evil thoughts and to be a transgressor of the Law, and He will not forgive one who walks in transgression.

 

[Philos]

If Catholics follow Jesus then I would expect them to hold to His teachings - faith alone for one, among many other things.

Jesus never taught faith alone in the Gospels, though. On the contrary, He gave some pretty specific commands, and even said only those who do the will of His Father will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Katy-follower]

This might sound crazy, but you could research it yourself. Heck, even Wiki has a decent account of St. Peter, and how he became known as the "founder" of the CCh. (as believed by Catholics of course). Christ's words (as mentioned earlier) are indicative that Peter was to be the first "stone" (hence the name).
Therefore, being the first "authoritive" image of Christianity, after Christ's departure, Peter is viewed as the first pontiff. That's all.

Beyond that, take into account the events of the time, and that occurred upon the fall of Rome and both empires, the lingering practices of paganism, barbarian hordes, the Huns, and Islam, and one can understand why the need to structuralize and organize Christianity helped preserve and protect Christian Europe.

One cannot blindly read scriptures, without studying the history that goes with them.
I hope this clarifies things a bit more for you.
Cheers.

Roman Emperor Constantine was the founder of the Catholic Church. He decided to merge Paganism with the popular Christianity at the time, which you cannot do. The doctrine of Catholicism is like chalk with the cheese of the true Gospel. The disciples were against the Roman authority and were eventually persecuted for the truth that they had. The Roman religion was a way to keep control of the people at the time.. Roman government also now had a Roman religion, so how much more powerful can you get than that? Bible Christians were forced to submit to the Roman authority and many were killed because they would not deny the truth. Christianity was not preserved through the Roman church, this is where deception was given the ability to breed.

 

[Katy-follower]

Jesus never taught faith alone in the Gospels, though. On the contrary, He gave some pretty specific commands, and even said only those who do the will of His Father will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

It is by grace through faith (not works), so it is by faith alone (not works or baptism). Once we are drawn by faith we need to humbly ask for forgiveness and this is where we are born again.

We are not saved by obeying the law. Once we are born again the fruits of salvation are obedience and works given to us, which are prepared in advance. Those who have the truth (the fruits of salvation) do the will of the Father.

 

[Katy-follower]

The bible, can have many different contexts. It speaks to people in different ways. If someone believes in Christ, that really, should be all that matters when it boils down. Do they follow the commandments, do they trust in Christ, and do they repent and worship God.

There is only one correct interpretation of the bible. God is not the author of confusion. Satan is the one that confuses and deceives.

1 Corinthians 2: 14-16: "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ" - the bible is Spiritually discerned. If a person is not born again with the Holy Spirit dwelling in them then they cannot understand the Spiritual messages in the bible. When a man tries to interpret the bible for himself without the spirit he will get the wrong interpretation every time. This is why so many cannot agree on the interpretation because many have the truth (the Holy Spirit guiding them and interpreting) and others don't.

Satan believes in Jesus bu he is not going to Heaven. A person down the road could believe in Jesus but if they are not born again they are not going to Heaven. John 3:3: "Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Once a person has the HS guiding them through scripture, the scriptures are very personal and speak to you in such a way that you understand the meaning of life and everything. You are able to discern truth from errors in the world. Incredible.1 Corinthians 2:4-16
"...And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ"

 

[Mediate]

But what ARE the things of God Katy? I believe them to be Love. and kindness. And understadning. Patience. And faith. Adn hope.

Love of Catholics. Kindness even when they dont believe what we do. Understadning that they do not wish to be bashed, and they will not force their belief onto us either. Mutual respect. Patience as they adjust into this chat room. And friendliness, not throwing hatred and conflicting scripture at them. Faith that we may come ot see each other for the good in us instead of the bad, and hope that God can unite us somehow.

 

[Mediate]

that is achieved, primarily, by friendship and consideration.

 

[Katy-follower]

Philos your missing the point. One Pope wearing robes does not make a whole eighth of the world damned to Hell. If they believe in Christ, and put Christ before the pope, and repent, and do all the things, then they are just as faithful as you. This whole practice of stereotyping a whole religion of people, is quite narrow minded. I know plenty of catholics who agree that the Pope shouldn't be wearing fine robes and jewels. I know some who have reasons to believe he should. The church, really, does not dictate their views. Nor do they give everything they have to the church. You all seem to assume the are devout to 'the church', and not to God. This is not the case.

If a person is Mormon and attends a Mormon church then I can rightfully assume that they hold to the beliefs and teachings of the Mormon church. If they did not agree they would not be Mormon. Same goes for Catholicism. If you don't believe the teachings/doctrines of that church you would not be going, for example.

One thing that is scriptural....

God does not listen to the prayers of a person (who is not born again) unless their prayer is for salvation! A person who is not born again does not have access to God through Jesus. If they are praying for salvation He will listen and will not tun them away. To the people down the road that pray for a promotion etc, God does not listen to them if they are not born again. Once a person is born again they have access to God everyday, all day, and He will answer their prayer in His own time. So when you see the Jews in Israel praying to a wall know that they are muttering words in vain, all outward prayers that mean nothing. Unless a person is born again they are living their life with that burden of sin that has not yet been forgiven. Many religions keep them where they are and they die never knowing the truth and never having been born again. Very sad And their prayers were said as if they thought God was listening but they did not realize that they didn't have access to Him yet, they had to be forgiven first.

 

[Katy-follower]

The Church will always have some corruption. That does not mean that every member is corrupt. A lot of people in Europe have no other church than the cahtolic one.

And again, you seem to forget, that the Catholic church was set up before any of ours were. It came with original canonical books that Martin Luther took from the bible.

No. Christ established a New covenant, a New testament church. The disciples died to preserve the same truth that us born again Christians also have today.

Martin Luther was someone else that saw the deception the same way the disciples did. Many bible Christians died as martyrs because they would not submit to Roman authority, the Roman system. I already commeted on the extra books on a previous post.

 

[Mediate]

Katy, this will not change my views. Niether will it change yours. I believe that Catholic people want Christ. Know Christ. And Need Christ. Like me and you. You believe they are damned. Let's just stop this and agree to disagree. then we can both get on with our lives. There is no point to this anymore. It's going to change nothing.

 

[Katy-follower]

the way we should see this, is not 'catholic and christian', but christian and christian. Don;t you think people under the catholic heading feel ashamed of some of the church activities? Don't you realise that good, God fearing people do have minds of their own??

Christians worship God in spirit and in truth...

John 4:23-24: "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

The bible is the inspired word of God and everything should be compared to it. If you read the bible with the goal of defending you will not see the truth because you are inadvertently twisting scripture to suit your beliefs. You cannot do that.

 

[Katy-follower]

And if we really want to get on the subject of strange dogmas, there's baptist churches, who also child baptize. There's koran burning. And general religious hatred. You get it in EVERy denomination, believe me. You will always get people who believe they know better than everyone else. My view is this; accept that people try.

God doesnt expect anymore of us. So who are WE to expect it? People can only do their best.

I don't like the label protestant. It seems that if you're not Catholic you're branded as Protestant. Not all "protestants" are born again. Not all are going to Heaven. Very few are on the narrow road going to Heaven. A lot of people say they're Christian, it's the most overused term.

Baptist churches do not believe in Baptism for salvation. Baptism is an outward display of what has already happened inwardly. After you are saved you need to be baptized. Baptism doesn't save you. I know that many baptist churches like you to be baptized first before becoming a member.

Denominations began as a result of disagreements in religions, hence different religions took on different traditions that were not favored and so you have a new denomination. The disciples did not belong to any denomination. We are not to have labels. If I were to tell someone I was Christian they might ask me "what type of Christian" because there are so many religions that claim to be Christian. I now just say I'm a born again disciple.

 

[Katy-follower]

come together and share common believes, common love, and common repentance, instead of disputing the minor 'religious' facotrs. << That, my friends, is what Jesus wanted.

We're instructed to not compromise truth for the sake of unity. We're not to fellowship with unbelievers who are not equally yoked. We have to expose falsehoods as we see them and share truth with others.

 

[Katy-follower]

All I have done this whole time is try to say 'everyone, we are all the same'. We all have flaws. We all have flaws. We don;t have the right to judge. Or hate. Or preach to people who, frankly, already know Jesus in their hearts.

No, we are not all the same. Some of us are in God's family and others are in the world. We're all sinners, just that those born again have had the wage of sin paid for. Those who are not born again still carry the burden of that sin and if they die in that state it is too late.

If you don't like hearing anyone preaching then why are you on this site? Those who worship God in Spirit and truth love to preach and talk about Him all the time. This is a site for fellowship and discussing bible topics. There have always been debates because Catholics jump into bible discussions not believing what we share with each other because it doesn't go along with their church teachings. But what we share is biblical and truth.

 

[Katy-follower]

It isn't preaching when it's full of 'you're religion is wrong'. And these jesus following people just try to defend themselves and make you see, they are not so different than you are.

Anything against the word of God is wrong. Period.

Everything must be compared with the bible to see if it matches up.

 

[Mediate]

Katy . . . JESUS WELCOMED PROSTITUTES.JESUS BEFRIENDED PEOPLE. HE DID NOT TELL THEM GET OUT. JESUS TAUGHT WITH LOVE. AND WITH TACT. AND WITH CONSIDERATION. WITH Q AND A. HE WAS GENTLE. AND KIND. AND LOVING. HE DID NOT BASH PEOPLE AND GO ON, AND ON, AND ON, AND ON. Jesus was a pretty nice guy.

Even the mods on this site have expressed to me that they have no interest in closing this thread even when it contains Catholic bashing and some real almost bullying. If someone said to Jesus 'Please, God I have been flogged enough', I'm sure he'd stop bashing them. And perhaps have a conversation and befriend them. There comes a point where you have to put all the constant bashing and faith talk away when it upsets people. And kindle friendships.

 

[Mediate]

yes it should be put the the bible. But nothing youve said so far has convinced me (and i'm not catholic), that catholic doctrine is wrong and as harmful as you protest. Just give it a rest for gooodness sake.

 

[Katy-follower]

I tell you what. If I said to Jesus now, 'Jesus, there are many Catholics on this forum who feel isolated and cursed. They follow in you as best they can, and believe that Peter was the Pope. They believ in all you have written, and have an interpretation of it which some people don't agree with. Christ, is it okay for them to do these practices. To hold mass? To have statues of your mother Mary, there to honour her. Is it okay that they confess to a teacher in the church? Is it okay that they ask the Pope to pray for them all?'

What would Jesus say?

Revelation 18:4-8: "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her"

 

[Katy-follower]

Above all, nobody has the right to judge anybodys

Again, exposing a false doctrines and sharing truth is not judging. Christ Himself told us to do this.

 

[Mediate]

Does anywhere it say 'GIVE HER FOLLOWERS TORMENT AND SORROW? cause you are doing that, whether intentional or not.