tithe

[TheGrungeDiva]

I give over 30 % to my government (taxes) .

Really? You must be quite wealthy. Even in the states with the highest tax rates (combining property, sales, and state income tax), for you to give more than 30% in taxes, you must earn well over six figures, no kids. Seven figures if you've got kids.

Of the 70 % remaining. most of it goes to insurance, regular bills (the only loan I have is house, and no credit cards or bills) and living.

If the cost of living is so high, that 70% of six figures can't even cover insurance, one mortgage, and simple groceries, there's something fishy. My only guess is that you're self-employed? That can eat up a lot in expenses. (Remember, I do this for a living.)

between the government greed, Insurance greed, and the cost of living taking most of my money, I give what I can to God. if it is not ten percent, is it a sin?

Absolutely not. It's not a sin. One could argue, however, that certain choices (buying a house that is more than you can really afford, for example) are not the most godly choices. I'm not saying this is what you did -- I can't possibly know your situation. I do know people who get themselves into situations, and it's always easy to blame "Uncle Sam," when really it comes down to poor personal choices. I've seen plenty of people in that situation.

And yes, sometimes it really is because of "Uncle Sam." I would say it's an evidence of sin -- not your sin or my sin, but the evidence of sin ("insurance greed" is what you call it) that Americans have to spend so much on health insurance. I honestly believe Obamacare will help that situation. I know a lot of my sisters and brothers in Christ disagree with me there, and I don't want to derail this conversation, but I think we can both agree that there is something wrong with "the system" as it stands.

I hope you don't see me as pointing a finger at you. I think it is very possible that you are in the exact situation you describe. Some of my clients are. Through no fault of their own, they just don't have 10% to give. And no, that isn't a sin.

But more often than not, it's not really a matter of not having the money, it's a matter of making choices, and priorities. Again, that's still not a sin. If having a big house or a new car is a higher priority to someone than donating to charity, it's not a sin. It's just that person's priority. God is not going to send someone to hell for that. I guess I'm just asking people to look at their lives and recognize the difference between, "I can't afford to do that" and "I choose to spend my money in other ways."

But ultimately, you're right -- it's not a sin not to tithe.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I read on a catlic brochure about the income of the pastor, deacon, Bishop and etc. That shocked me because I thought that pastors work for free. I didn't know that Church workers got paid because all the workers at my church are volunteers.

There are many positions in many churches (I think you meant "Catholic" not "catlic") that are filled by volunteers. I am not Catholic, so I can't comment on that, but I am familiar with the mainline protestant denominations. Pastors of these churches typically work 60+ hours a week. Many of them have families to support. How do you expect them to support their families if they are working so many hours that they can't have another job?

I know that in some churches they split up the work among a lot of people. That's great if it works. I can't see how that would work in our churches, but if it works for them, that's great.

I do know that of all the professionals I know -- people who have graduate degrees -- pastors are some of the lowest paid. Usually a pastor is married, and the spouse earns more money and has a job that offers health care for the whole family, and that's the only way they're able to make ends meet. Many churches include housing as part of the package to the pastor, but that is becoming less and less common, and housing is becoming more and more expensive.

Our priest is "part time." She only puts in about 40 hours a week, and her income is around $30K/year. I know of few people with graduate degrees who would work those kinds of hours for that little. She doesn't do it for the money. She does it because she has been called by God to serve in that position. But she would not be able to answer that call if she didn't get some kind of compensation.

So yes, some of my tithe is used to pay for her income. I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Red33]

why would it matter what I give?

I give over 30 % to my government (taxes) . Of the 70 % remaining. most of it goes to insurance, regular bills (the only loan I have is house, and no credit cards or bills) and living.

between the government greed, Insurance greed, and the cost of living taking most of my money, I give what I can to God. if it is not ten percent, is it a sin?

Most people I know do not have ten % left after they pay everyone else (ceaser) what is owed them. are you going to judge them because they do not have ten percent to give?

What is wrong with you, have you lost your mind? No one is judging you or condemning you in any way. Challenging you? YES! The tenth part is off the top of the increase, whatever that might be. If the government is taking 30%, which is not available for you to invest or purchase with under your own stewardship, then you pay a tenth on the remainder which is your increase. At tax time, if you get a refund back on what was taken, that is also part of your increase and you pay a tenth on the refund after any other government deductions or fees that might apply.

REITERATE: After what the government takes by law (Caesar's portion) the remainder can be utilized under your control and stewardship. A tenth comes off the top of that remainder (or what you have been increased including any refunds) and that goes to the work of the ministry of the local church (or barns) that you participate in, which needs to be supplemented and supplied including those that have been called to serve and lay there life down as full-time laborers. That should not be a problem and anything given over and above the tithe (or tenth part) is considered an offering. Let's not rob God of the portion of the increase that we have been given by the grace of God and give cheerfully with thanksgiving. I think we can trust God for all our needs and never have to worry or be anxious because He knows what we have need of before we ask.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I join with many here in warning against the "prosperity gospel." That's these groups that say "Do you need a blessing in your life? A miracle? Send a check or money order now for $19.99 made out to so-and-so Ministries, and we know God will bless you with whatever you ask."

God is not some Cosmic bank account where you put your money in and it earns interest. Thankfully, scams like the above saw their heyday in the 80s and seem to be on the decline (that's the kind of miracle I can attribute to God). But they still exist. And they always have. This is nothing new. One of Martin Luther's main arguments against the Church at his time was the selling of "indulgences." The Church in Germany had a saying, "When a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from pergatory springs." (I think that's where _It's a Wonderful Life_ got it's idea for "every time you hear a bell an angel gets its wings")

Anyway, I'm glad to see so many of my sisters and brothers speak out against this kind of false gospel. Not that there is any Gospel outside of Jesus Christ, as Paul reminds us.

It is a fine line, between "give all you have and follow me" to "just hand it over and trust God to take care of you." I think God expects us to keep enough of what we make to take care of ourselves and our families. On the other hand, there is a kind of faith that can give freely, maybe even "give til it hurts," and trust that somehow it will work out in the end. God does provide.

And as I said before, a lot of it has to do with priorities. Recognizing that you don't really need that 2nd car: you can combine trips, rely on mass transit, etc., and hey, look, now you have a surplus, and fewer headaches, too! I think that's how God's blessings work. When the human soul recognizes that it can survive on less and less, just that process means that the little we have feels like more and more, and we end up with surplus, even though we make the same that we did before.

 

[Chadtreme]

There are many positions in many churches (I think you meant "Catholic" not "catlic") that are filled by volunteers. I am not Catholic, so I can't comment on that, but I am familiar with the mainline protestant denominations. Pastors of these churches typically work 60+ hours a week. Many of them have families to support. How do you expect them to support their families if they are working so many hours that they can't have another job?

I know that in some churches they split up the work among a lot of people. That's great if it works. I can't see how that would work in our churches, but if it works for them, that's great.

I do know that of all the professionals I know -- people who have graduate degrees -- pastors are some of the lowest paid. Usually a pastor is married, and the spouse earns more money and has a job that offers health care for the whole family, and that's the only way they're able to make ends meet. Many churches include housing as part of the package to the pastor, but that is becoming less and less common, and housing is becoming more and more expensive.

Our priest is "part time." She only puts in about 40 hours a week, and her income is around $30K/year. I know of few people with graduate degrees who would work those kinds of hours for that little. She doesn't do it for the money. She does it because she has been called by God to serve in that position. But she would not be able to answer that call if she didn't get some kind of compensation.

So yes, some of my tithe is used to pay for her income. I wouldn't have it any other way.

You need a degree to be a pastor?

 

[Hurricane1]

You need a degree to be a pastor?

You need nothing of the sort.

1 John 2:26 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

 

[Red33]

You need nothing of the sort.

1 John 2:26 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

The anointing is very important and we all have an anointing because we have the Spirit that reveals Christ in us as the anointed one. However, Jesus called the twelve disciples and made sure they walked with Him and were taught by Him for at least three years before He left them in the ascension. It took all of three years just to bring them to a place to know that He was the Christ, God manifest in the flesh being sent of the Father. They went through major times of unbelief, bad doctrine, misdirected faith, denial and even forsook Christ for a time when He was crucified.

It was a learning process for a solid three years with its ups and downs before they were given their apostleship and sent out to go into all the world to preach to the lost sheep of Israel and shepherd them along with the Gentiles as one body with many flocks. They became teachers along with Paul and Barnabas, Timothy and Titus and many other men who were called to pastor and feed the flock including Apollos.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

You need a degree to be a pastor?

In many churches, yes, you have to go through a four-year post-college seminary program, which is quite rigorous. It usually consists of two years of "book learning" -- in subjects like Greek and Hebrew, Biblical Studies, Church History, Theology, Worship, Preaching, Ethics, Evangelism, Pastoral Care and Counseling -- then a one-year internship, then one more year of study, where you might pick a more narrow topic -- for example, some might look at mission work, others might want to delve into Hebrew Scripture, others might want to look at Church Growth....

This four-year program gives you a degree called "Master of Divinity." That degree is not enough ... you also need to be called. But in the mainline protestant churches and in all of the Catholic rites I know of, you have to have that degree before you can be called to serve as a priest or pastor.

There are other positions that don't require degrees, and it all depends on the particular congregation. I know some churches where all of the ministry leaders have to have at least some seminary training -- the Director of Christian Education, the Youth Minister, the Minister of Music -- these are all positions where a seminary degree is not required, but it sure is helpful, if you want to be sure you're getting the right message across. I mean, would you want your children to learn Scripture from someone who hadn't really studied it themselves very carefully? Would you trust your youth to be shepherded by someone who wasn't steered in Christian Ethics? Not that a 4-year degree necessarily guarantees that. Of course, I know plenty of people who have all sorts of "book smarts" but are no closer to God than your average chimp. But I also know a lot of people who are "on fire" for the Lord, who mean well, but because they haven't been tempered with training, they may or may not be particularly effective.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Hurricane1]

The anointing is very important and we all have an anointing because we have the Spirit that reveals Christ in us as the anointed one. However, Jesus called the twelve disciples and made sure they walked with Him and were taught by Him for at least three years before He left them in the ascension. It took all of three years just to bring them to a place to know that He was the Christ, God manifest in the flesh being sent of the Father. They went through major times of unbelief, bad doctrine, misdirected faith, denial and even forsook Christ for a time when He was crucified.

It was a learning process for a solid three years with its ups and downs before they were given their apostleship and sent out to go into all the world to preach to the lost sheep of Israel and shepherd them along with the Gentiles as one body with many flocks. They became teachers along with Paul and Barnabas, Timothy and Titus and many other men who were called to pastor and feed the flock including Apollos.

That was BEFORE the Holy Spirit was given. We have no need of "holy men" today.

Romans 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

It's very simple brother. We are to be led by the Spirit of God... not any man. Jesus is our King, no man leads us. The office of Pastor in the first century was a person gifted in helping others see clearly. It was not a paid position or even an official position. I myself have been told I function in the pastoral gift in the house church I went to. I have no training except by the Spirit of God. And, BTW, I have been told that by actual clergy as well, so don't even try to say I'm deceived.

 

[Red33]

That was BEFORE the Holy Spirit was given. We have no need of "holy men" today.

Romans 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

It's very simple brother. We are to be led by the Spirit of God... not any man. Jesus is our King, no man leads us. The office of Pastor in the first century was a person gifted in helping others see clearly. It was not a paid position or even an official position. I myself have been told I function in the pastoral gift in the house church I went to. I have no training except by the Spirit of God. And, BTW, I have been told that by actual clergy as well, so don't even try to say I'm deceived.

If you are a student of the word and have diligently studied the NT, especially the epistles written to the church including Hebrews, you would never make such an assessment, it's just foolishness and unintelligent and is based in subjectivity. It is amazing how many times I have been through this with others who avoid those passages of scripture that clearly refer to those who have been raised up and called to be pastors and teachers, bishops and elders in the church and body of Christ. And as far as following the faith of those who have been called by God to preach and teach as pastor-teachers, here is some scripture for your learning; (this all comes after the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Christ.)

1Cor 4:16, 11:1, Eph 5:1, Phil 3:17, 1Thes 1:6, 2:14, 2Thes 3:7,9, Heb 6:12
and ... 1Thes 5:12, Heb 13:7,17,24

Most of those who believe as you do have no intention is submitting to any man of God or the word and doctrine they teach. They have a problem with it because of the delegated authority it represents being in Christ's stead and they don't want to humble themselves under the mighty hand of God represented by these men who have been called by grace and raised up of God and not self appointed. They think they can do it on their own not understanding that God does everything decently and in order and understands what's in the heart of man.

 

[Hurricane1]

If you are a student of the word and have diligently studied the NT, especially the epistles written to the church including Hebrews, you would never make such an assessment, it's just foolishness and unintelligent and is based in subjectivity. It is amazing how many times I have been through this with others who avoid those passages of scripture that clearly refer to those who have been raised up and called to be pastors and teachers, bishops and elders in the church and body of Christ. And as far as following the faith of those who have been called by God to preach and teach as pastor-teachers, here is some scripture for your learning; (this all comes after the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Christ.)

1Cor 4:16, 11:1, Eph 5:1, Phil 3:17, 1Thes 1:6, 2:14, 2Thes 3:7,9, Heb 6:12
and ... 1Thes 5:12, Heb 13:7,17,24

Most of those who believe as you do have no intention is submitting to any man of God or the word and doctrine they teach. They have a problem with it because of the delegated authority it represents being in Christ's stead and they don't want to humble themselves under the mighty hand of God represented by these men who have been called by grace and raised up of God and not self appointed. They think they can do it on their own not understanding that God does everything decently and in order and understands what's in the heart of man.

I never said that there wern't pastors, teachers evangelists and the like. I only said that they don't have to be "ordained" by others and that they are not "professional" positions. Every person in the Church functions to their fullest when we strip away the pagan traditions that we have adopted post first century. Please don't ever put words in my mouth brother, and condemning people, especially if you "think" that I am unlearned is a type of judgement and hatred...not really becoming of a child of God.

Not self appointed???? They decide for themselves that they want to be a "leader" in the church, they put themselves through school and they come out in their desired profession... most certainly self appointed. If it were otherwise, they would probably be very reluctant to take their office. An apostle would raise them up slowly and diligently, not send them off to college. There is a HUGE difference between discipleship and bible college. This is why we have soooo many dead places of worship with congregations that are spectators instead of participants. Being called isn't something you decide for yourself, it's imposed on you through the Spirit of God and taught to you through discipleship of an apostle. And, yes, apostles are still around today. In the house church movement I am in, we call them "workers". And, yes, we submit to their "God given" authority. We meet as the first century Church met, with every member contributing to the meetings. You meet under pagan rituals established by men who appointed themselves as leaders and you sit and watch a show. Stand back and really watch what is happening sometime. Or better yet, ask the pastor if you can sit in on the planning meetings. You will be shocked at how orchestrated it is... right down to each song sung, when the offering will be taken, the pastors message and the ministry that follows the message. I have sat in on these meetings... and I wanted to puke when I did. There is no life in them, no compassion, no real concern for the congregation. I did this because I was put on staff in two different churches, and they were both very similar. One was a PDI church and the other was an AG church. Dude, you can call me unlearned, stupid, unintelligent or anything else you desire... but it doesn't make it so. I have studied it ad nauseum. I have the Holy Spirit to teach me. I understand a lot more than you think and I do not seek your approval. I look to the Lord for my approval, and judging by His presence in my life, I am on the right track. I have seen things others can only imagine seeing. I walk with my Lord everyday, in the garden, as it were. Yes, I believe in complete restoration of my relationship with my Father. I can talk with Him as I would my best friend. He speaks to me in many ways and it always lines up with the bible.

Let me ask you a question... is the bible the "Word of God"?

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I never said that there wern't pastors, teachers evangelists and the like. I only said that they don't have to be "ordained" by others and that they are not "professional" positions.

I have no ill feeling towards churches that do not put their pastors and other leaders through as rigorous training as the mainline protestants and Catholics do. I am not saying that preachers who haven't had their 4-year seminary degree are some how "less holy" than an Episcopal priest or Methodist minister who has. However, please understand that our tradition is not what you think it, and please do not mock what for us is a very important part of our tradition.

Our pastors are not "ordained" by other men. They are ordained by God.

Not self appointed???? They decide for themselves that they want to be a "leader" in the church, they put themselves through school and they come out in their desired profession... most certainly self appointed.

No, they do not "decide for themselves" that they want to be a leader. They are called by God to that profession, and part of that calling includes the learning and education. Some of them put themselves through school, though many do not have that kind of money, so their congregation sponsors them, puts up the money for their education, because the congregation recognizes that they have been called. If someone comes to seminary out of their own sense of self-importance or ego, they are quickly sniffed out and sent packing. I assure you -- I have seen it happen dozens of times. Seminaries have no patience for those who think they want to be a leader out of their own selfish desires. And there are few enough of those. As I said -- they don't make a lot of money. I know the power can be something some may covet, but God has a way of revealing those wolves-in-sheep's-clothing before they get far. God is not mocked.

If it were otherwise, they would probably be very reluctant to take their office.

I have yet to meet someone who was not reluctant to answer their call to seminary. I've heard dozens of stories. Rarely is it, "God called me, so I just picked myself up and went to seminary." More often, it's, "God was pushing and prodding, and I didn't want to do it. I kept trying to do other things, until finally I gave in and answered God's call."

There is a HUGE difference between discipleship and bible college.

Ummm, yes. And there is a huge difference between bible college and seminary. But what does that have to do with anything, anyway?

Being called isn't something you decide for yourself, it's imposed on you through the Spirit of God and taught to you through discipleship of an apostle.

I agree with you here.

And, yes, apostles are still around today. In the house church movement I am in, we call them "workers".

I think that's why I like the title "minister," which really means "servant."

You meet under pagan rituals established by men who appointed themselves as leaders and you sit and watch a show.

Please do not judge what you do not know. I find this comment highly insulting, and God would not be pleased with your bad-mouthing people who have come to love a form of worship that has been around for thousands of years.

It's called liturgy. It is not "pagan" in origin, but Jewish. Pagans actually stole it from Jews long before Jesus walked the earth. In fact, Jesus worshiped a liturgy. And I don't think Jesus would take kindly to you trash-talking his form of worship. It is a beautiful, meaningful way of praising God, and millions of Christians participate in this form of worship every week, every day even. When I participate in the liturgy, I know I am one with Christians across the planet, and in all times, past, present, and future. If such a ritual does not give you any sense of awe or meaning, then by all means, don't attend a liturgical church. But I will ask you kindly not to insult what is for me and more God-fearing men and women than you can fathom, a very sacred practice.

Stand back and really watch what is happening sometime. Or better yet, ask the pastor if you can sit in on the planning meetings. You will be shocked at how orchestrated it is... right down to each song sung, when the offering will be taken, the pastors message and the ministry that follows the message. I have sat in on these meetings... and I wanted to puke when I did.

Yes, we plan the hymns, the message, the activities of the day ahead of time. We know what the Scripture readings are going to be. The preacher prepares the sermon based on those readings. I plan the music for that week accordingly. The deacon who leads the prayers knows the theme, too, and plans that accordingly. That way, members of the congregation get to hear the same message in many different ways. They hear the Gospel, read by lectors, straight out of Scripture, then they hear the message interpreted, then they sing hymns and songs of praise that point to that same message, then they participate in prayer on that same exact message. I guess you could call it "orchestrated." I would simply call it organized. I've gone to churches that were not organized, where the songs sung had nothing to do with the message that was preached. Frankly, that type of worship made me want to puke. So I'll tell you what: I won't force you to puke at my church, and then I won't puke at yours. Fair enough?

There is no life in them, no compassion, no real concern for the congregation.

I'm sorry that your experience at two churches was like this. In my life, I've probably been to at least 100 churches of various types. Yes, some of them feel dead, just going through the motions. Some of them are alive. The difference has nothing to do with whether they are liturgical. I've seen your non-liturgical churches just as dead and dispassionate as any morgue. The question isn't how they worship. The question is WHO they worship.

 

[Red33]

I never said that there wern't pastors, teachers evangelists and the like. I only said that they don't have to be "ordained" by others and that they are not "professional" positions. Every person in the Church functions to their fullest when we strip away the pagan traditions that we have adopted post first century. Please don't ever put words in my mouth brother, and condemning people, especially if you "think" that I am unlearned is a type of judgement and hatred...not really becoming of a child of God.

Not self appointed???? They decide for themselves that they want to be a "leader" in the church, they put themselves through school and they come out in their desired profession... most certainly self appointed. If it were otherwise, they would probably be very reluctant to take their office. An apostle would raise them up slowly and diligently, not send them off to college. There is a HUGE difference between discipleship and bible college. This is why we have soooo many dead places of worship with congregations that are spectators instead of participants. Being called isn't something you decide for yourself, it's imposed on you through the Spirit of God and taught to you through discipleship of an apostle. And, yes, apostles are still around today. In the house church movement I am in, we call them "workers". And, yes, we submit to their "God given" authority. We meet as the first century Church met, with every member contributing to the meetings. You meet under pagan rituals established by men who appointed themselves as leaders and you sit and watch a show. Stand back and really watch what is happening sometime. Or better yet, ask the pastor if you can sit in on the planning meetings. You will be shocked at how orchestrated it is... right down to each song sung, when the offering will be taken, the pastors message and the ministry that follows the message. I have sat in on these meetings... and I wanted to puke when I did. There is no life in them, no compassion, no real concern for the congregation. I did this because I was put on staff in two different churches, and they were both very similar. One was a PDI church and the other was an AG church. Dude, you can call me unlearned, stupid, unintelligent or anything else you desire... but it doesn't make it so. I have studied it ad nauseum. I have the Holy Spirit to teach me. I understand a lot more than you think and I do not seek your approval. I look to the Lord for my approval, and judging by His presence in my life, I am on the right track. I have seen things others can only imagine seeing. I walk with my Lord everyday, in the garden, as it were. Yes, I believe in complete restoration of my relationship with my Father. I can talk with Him as I would my best friend. He speaks to me in many ways and it always lines up with the bible.

Let me ask you a question... is the bible the "Word of God"?

None of what you have been through changes what the scriptures teach and what the practice is of the NT local assembly. No matter where you go and serve God, you go as a servant to lay your life down and love the brethren. If you are rejected for that then that's not the place for you to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. If you are in the midst of a dead church that does not mean you can't have life and live by the grace of God and minister that grace to others that are open. That's all.

 

[garyarnold]

Why not look at scripture to see exactly what the Biblical tithes were:

THE FIRST TITHE
Leviticus 27:30-33 defines this tithe as a tenth of crops and animals in herds and flocks.
Numbers 18 gives the ordinances, or instructions, for this tithe, and commands this tithe be taken to the Levites.
Purpose of this tithe: to support the Levitical Priesthood.

SECOND TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:22-27: aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take to the yearly feasts.
Purpose of this tithe: “that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always”

THIRD TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:28-29: aka The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe - a tenth of crops, kept at home, and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat.
Purpose of this tithe: to feed the poor.

Now, be truthful. Anyone here pay the Biblical tithe? The tithe was NEVER money and could not be money even though the Temple Tax had to be paid with money. The tithe NEVER came from anyone's income. The tithes commanded by God ALWAYS came from God's miraculous increase from crops and animals. NOTHING ELSE. Wage earners did not tithe.

When God gave the Israelites the promised land, He RESERVED, for Himself, a tenth of the crops and every tenth animal. They NEVER did belong to the Israelites. In other words, the tithe was from God's increase of FOOD, not from man's income. It was a way to distribute FOOD to the Levites and priests who did NOT inherit any land.

No one, not even the farmers, tithed on their income.

The farmers made their income by SELLING and/or barter-exchanging their crops and animals but did NOT tithe on that income.

Today, ALL born-again believers are priests. ALL of us are called to be deciples of the Lord. No one of us is higher than another. Our bodies are the Temple where the Spirit dwells. According to the scriptures, priests do not tithe.

 

[Philos]

Today, ALL born-again believers are priests. ALL of us are called to be deciples of the Lord. No one of us is higher than another. Our bodies are the Temple where the Spirit dwells. According to the scriptures, priests do not tithe.

Considering tithes were for the priests, that pretty much explains it on this topic.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[tribesman]

There is a very interesting discussion here and now about the due form of worship and deviations from it/ignorance about it. With experience from both "traditional" and "free" churches I am pleased over the traditional reformed position, which shines as a golden middle path. But, hey, this is not really OnT. Tithe is the topic. And I can reiterate my take on it. For me an "OT" commandment does not have to be "repeated" in the "NT" to be valid. It is only when it is clearly implied that a commandment is not longer binding (by way of having been fulfilled in the person and work of Christ, see the temple service) that one can say that we need no longer to mind it. I do not find tithing among these. This said, I believe that tithing, for christians, is more a matter of attitude and heart about giving rather than the strictest observance. A tenth is the least we are to give.

 

[garyarnold]

For me an "OT" commandment does not have to be "repeated" in the "NT" to be valid. It is only when it is clearly implied that a commandment is not longer binding (by way of having been fulfilled in the person and work of Christ, see the temple service) that one can say that we need no longer to mind it. I do not find tithing among these.

Study Hebrews 7. Pay particular to verses 5,12,18. Those verses tell us that the tithe was disannulled.

SIX STEPS TO UNDERSTANDING WHEN AND HOW THE TITHE ENDED

STEP 1

Hebrews 7:5 (KJV)
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Hebrews 7:5 confirms that Levi received tithes according to the law under the Levitical priesthood.

STEP 2

Hebrews 7:12 (KJV)
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 7:12 tells us changing the priesthood will also change the law.

STEP 3

Hebrews 7:18 (KJV)
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Hebrews 7:18 verifies that Numbers 18, which established the Levitical priesthood, including the command to tithe was disannulled (canceled).
STEP 4

Ephesians 2:15 (KJV)
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Colossians 2:14 (KJV)
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 confirm that the Old Testament laws were abolished; nailed to the cross.

STEP 5

Galatians 4:5 (KJV)
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Galatians 4:5 tells us that Jesus redeemed those who were under the law. Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 above tell us how Jesus redeemed those under the law – by nailing the laws to the cross.

STEP 6

Galatians 3:10 (KJV)
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:10 is telling us those who reject what Jesus did on the cross and continue to put themselves under the law are cursed by the law. That verse also tells us those who put themselves under even one of the laws, are putting themselves under all of the laws written in the book.

Old Testament - God defined His tithe as crops and animals in herds and flocks. Nothing else. ONLY assets that came from God's hand, not man's income. Leviticus 27:30-34. ONLY Israelite farmers tithed. Jesus did not tithe. Paul did not tithe. Peter did not tithe. Wage earners did not tithe.

New Testament - The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth). The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent.

OLD TESTAMENT - THE FIRST OF THE FRUITS SHOULD GO TO GOD
Proverbs 3:9 (KJV) “Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:”

NEW TESTAMENT - THE WORKER SHOULD BE FIRST TO RECEIVE A SHARE OF THE CROPS
2 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) “The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.”

When was the last time you heard a pastor say that YOU should spend the first part of your income on yourself and your family?

1 Timothy 5:8 (KJV) “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”

The New Testament makes it clear that we are to use the FIRST of our income to take care of ourselves and our family. We are talking about needs, here, not just anything we want. Then we should give generously from what is left.

 

[1still_waters]

This get rich doctrine of the more you give the more you will recieve is not from god. God did not promise anyone they would get richer if they gave more. All this is is a cheap way to try to get people to give more so the hcurches and pastors can get rich while their people starve!

amen.

..............

 

[Hurricane1]

Study Hebrews 7. Pay particular to verses 5,12,18. Those verses tell us that the tithe was disannulled.

SIX STEPS TO UNDERSTANDING WHEN AND HOW THE TITHE ENDED

STEP 1

Hebrews 7:5 (KJV)
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Hebrews 7:5 confirms that Levi received tithes according to the law under the Levitical priesthood.

STEP 2

Hebrews 7:12 (KJV)
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 7:12 tells us changing the priesthood will also change the law.

STEP 3

Hebrews 7:18 (KJV)
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Hebrews 7:18 verifies that Numbers 18, which established the Levitical priesthood, including the command to tithe was disannulled (canceled).
STEP 4

Ephesians 2:15 (KJV)
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Colossians 2:14 (KJV)
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 confirm that the Old Testament laws were abolished; nailed to the cross.

STEP 5

Galatians 4:5 (KJV)
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Galatians 4:5 tells us that Jesus redeemed those who were under the law. Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 above tell us how Jesus redeemed those under the law – by nailing the laws to the cross.

STEP 6

Galatians 3:10 (KJV)
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:10 is telling us those who reject what Jesus did on the cross and continue to put themselves under the law are cursed by the law. That verse also tells us those who put themselves under even one of the laws, are putting themselves under all of the laws written in the book.

Old Testament - God defined His tithe as crops and animals in herds and flocks. Nothing else. ONLY assets that came from God's hand, not man's income. Leviticus 27:30-34. ONLY Israelite farmers tithed. Jesus did not tithe. Paul did not tithe. Peter did not tithe. Wage earners did not tithe.

New Testament - The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth). The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent.

OLD TESTAMENT - THE FIRST OF THE FRUITS SHOULD GO TO GOD
Proverbs 3:9 (KJV) “Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:”

NEW TESTAMENT - THE WORKER SHOULD BE FIRST TO RECEIVE A SHARE OF THE CROPS
2 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) “The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.”

When was the last time you heard a pastor say that YOU should spend the first part of your income on yourself and your family?

1 Timothy 5:8 (KJV) “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”

The New Testament makes it clear that we are to use the FIRST of our income to take care of ourselves and our family. We are talking about needs, here, not just anything we want. Then we should give generously from what is left.

AMEN to this brother... well said!

 

[Hurricane1]

I have no ill feeling towards churches that do not put their pastors and other leaders through as rigorous training as the mainline protestants and Catholics do. I am not saying that preachers who haven't had their 4-year seminary degree are some how "less holy" than an Episcopal priest or Methodist minister who has. However, please understand that our tradition is not what you think it, and please do not mock what for us is a very important part of our tradition.

Our pastors are not "ordained" by other men. They are ordained by God.


No, they do not "decide for themselves" that they want to be a leader. They are called by God to that profession, and part of that calling includes the learning and education. Some of them put themselves through school, though many do not have that kind of money, so their congregation sponsors them, puts up the money for their education, because the congregation recognizes that they have been called. If someone comes to seminary out of their own sense of self-importance or ego, they are quickly sniffed out and sent packing. I assure you -- I have seen it happen dozens of times. Seminaries have no patience for those who think they want to be a leader out of their own selfish desires. And there are few enough of those. As I said -- they don't make a lot of money. I know the power can be something some may covet, but God has a way of revealing those wolves-in-sheep's-clothing before they get far. God is not mocked.


I have yet to meet someone who was not reluctant to answer their call to seminary. I've heard dozens of stories. Rarely is it, "God called me, so I just picked myself up and went to seminary." More often, it's, "God was pushing and prodding, and I didn't want to do it. I kept trying to do other things, until finally I gave in and answered God's call."


Ummm, yes. And there is a huge difference between bible college and seminary. But what does that have to do with anything, anyway?


I agree with you here.


I think that's why I like the title "minister," which really means "servant."


Please do not judge what you do not know. I find this comment highly insulting, and God would not be pleased with your bad-mouthing people who have come to love a form of worship that has been around for thousands of years.

It's called liturgy. It is not "pagan" in origin, but Jewish. Pagans actually stole it from Jews long before Jesus walked the earth. In fact, Jesus worshiped a liturgy. And I don't think Jesus would take kindly to you trash-talking his form of worship. It is a beautiful, meaningful way of praising God, and millions of Christians participate in this form of worship every week, every day even. When I participate in the liturgy, I know I am one with Christians across the planet, and in all times, past, present, and future. If such a ritual does not give you any sense of awe or meaning, then by all means, don't attend a liturgical church. But I will ask you kindly not to insult what is for me and more God-fearing men and women than you can fathom, a very sacred practice.


Yes, we plan the hymns, the message, the activities of the day ahead of time. We know what the Scripture readings are going to be. The preacher prepares the sermon based on those readings. I plan the music for that week accordingly. The deacon who leads the prayers knows the theme, too, and plans that accordingly. That way, members of the congregation get to hear the same message in many different ways. They hear the Gospel, read by lectors, straight out of Scripture, then they hear the message interpreted, then they sing hymns and songs of praise that point to that same message, then they participate in prayer on that same exact message. I guess you could call it "orchestrated." I would simply call it organized. I've gone to churches that were not organized, where the songs sung had nothing to do with the message that was preached. Frankly, that type of worship made me want to puke. So I'll tell you what: I won't force you to puke at my church, and then I won't puke at yours. Fair enough?


I'm sorry that your experience at two churches was like this. In my life, I've probably been to at least 100 churches of various types. Yes, some of them feel dead, just going through the motions. Some of them are alive. The difference has nothing to do with whether they are liturgical. I've seen your non-liturgical churches just as dead and dispassionate as any morgue. The question isn't how they worship. The question is WHO they worship.

You just can't seem to get what I am saying. If your services are all planned out, the people sit idle in their pews, if their is no room for the Lord to use any and e very member of the body to bring a word or what they believe that Lord id saying to them, then they are just spectators. That was never the Lords, or even Pauls desire for the Church. The local Church was an organic thing that demonstarted the love of the Lord to everyone around it. It was so dynamic that, once people became part of it, they would rather die than lose what they have. That's not the case in todays congregations. Yes, there are a few that would give their lives, but not many. The current state of christianity today is an abomination because it is fractured, manufactured and controlled by religeous people. Jesus ENDED religeon. He started the "EKKLESIA". The following web site explains what this means. Let's see if this helps you understand where I am coming from...

The Church, the ekklesia