Warnings about Contemporary Praise Music by David Cloud

[ChosenbyHim]

Warnings about Contemporary Praise Music

By David Cloud
​

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=150419292

 

[Nautilus]

Why has he posted this tripe in every forum?

 

[feedm3]

Concerning the sermon, the reason for the "entertainment" among "churches" is because they are not following scripture when its comes to worship.

Entertainment like this is a common ramification from the use of mechanical instruments of music in worship.

The NT never says to play instruments, there is no example of the early church doing so, and their is not any valid inference that any church ever used them.

Col 3:16, Eph 5:19, we are told to sing, and make melody in our hearts to the Lord. NOT play, dance, etc, but sing. It does not say NOT to play, yet we do not get our authority from what the Bible does NOT say, but from what it does.

We sing to please God, not to entertain ourselves. When we go beyond what is written, and add things to our worship that are pleasing to us, this is where it leads, full blown concerts, deemed as "worship".

 

[LightningClap0002]

Concerning the sermon, the reason for the "entertainment" among "churches" is because they are not following scripture when its comes to worship.

Entertainment like this is a common ramification from the use of mechanical instruments of music in worship.

The NT never says to play instruments, there is no example of the early church doing so, and their is not any valid inference that any church ever used them.

Col 3:16, Eph 5:19, we are told to sing, and make melody in our hearts to the Lord. NOT play, dance, etc, but sing. It does not say NOT to play, yet we do not get our authority from what the Bible does NOT say, but from what it does.

We sing to please God, not to entertain ourselves. When we go beyond what is written, and add things to our worship that are pleasing to us, this is where it leads, full blown concerts, deemed as "worship".

Did you miss Psalm 150? Not specifically about church services, but definitely about praise. Or are you suggesting that we shouldn't praise in our church services, but only in our own alone time?

Psalm 150

1Praise the Lord.a
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
5praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.
6Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord.

 

[feedm3]

Did you miss Psalm 150? Not specifically about church services, but definitely about praise. Or are you suggesting that we shouldn't praise in our church services, but only in our own alone time?

Psalm 150

1Praise the Lord.a
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
5praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.
6Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord.

Nope, didn't miss it, yet I realize that it was under a different law and covenant. Did you miss Col chapter 2? That reveals to us that the Law has been nailed to the cross.

So what is was used in the OT? Do you also feel it is okay to sacrifice animals and burn incense at altars?

The OT was physical, the NT is spiritual, we dont sacrifice a lamb, Jesus did that. We don't burn instance, we pray. We dont make melody with a physical instrument, we do it spiritually with the heart.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

If those under the NT are termed as the "true worshippers" that implies that before they were not the permanent image of what God wanted. They were the physical symbolization of the true image that comes only in the NT. So why would we use those under a shadow (Heb 10) to justify what we can or cannot do under the NT?

Using the OT for authority in the NT is not how we are to use the word properly. Otherwise you open the door for all kinds of things.

 

[Dude653]

I enjoy contemporary christian music. As long as the lyrics are glorifying God, i dont see the problem

 

[Nautilus]

Concerning the sermon, the reason for the "entertainment" among "churches" is because they are not following scripture when its comes to worship.

Entertainment like this is a common ramification from the use of mechanical instruments of music in worship.

The NT never says to play instruments, there is no example of the early church doing so, and their is not any valid inference that any church ever used them.

Col 3:16, Eph 5:19, we are told to sing, and make melody in our hearts to the Lord. NOT play, dance, etc, but sing. It does not say NOT to play, yet we do not get our authority from what the Bible does NOT say, but from what it does.

We sing to please God, not to entertain ourselves. When we go beyond what is written, and add things to our worship that are pleasing to us, this is where it leads, full blown concerts, deemed as "worship".

So find where instruments are outlawed in a church service...oh wait thats not biblical either. I mean ive heard the whole 'instruments in church are wrong' thing before. Its a pretty weak argument that comes from a denomination bordering on cult...

 

[feedm3]

So find where instruments are outlawed in a church service...oh wait thats not biblical either. I mean ive heard the whole 'instruments in church are wrong' thing before. Its a pretty weak argument that comes from a denomination bordering on cult...

Okay and find me where it says I cannot use pizza for the Lord's supper. Also find me where it says I cannot use animal sacriice during a service. Can you please do that?

I don't need a scripture that tells me NOT to do it, when I have scripture that tells me how to do it. Do you go to McDonalds and order a number meal, and then tell them all the numbers you dont want?

When God told Noah build thee an ark out of gopher wood, did he have to name every wood their was that Noah could not use?

Of course not, the command "gopher wood" excluded all other types of wood. Just as the command "sing" excludes all other things like "play" "dance" - just Sing.


So we see the argument is not weak, because you are trying to say we can do things as long as the Bible did not say anything about it.

That is foolish. So the whole "cult" thing is just what people say when they cant find scriptural support for the things they like to add to worship.

So can we use pizza for the Lords supper? If not why not, the Bible does not say not to use it?

The Bible does tells us to sing, so I know that is not a sin, yet to argue from silence is weak, because now your going to have show why we cant use pizza, without saying because Jesus told us what to use, because that's not consistent. So whats your argument against that?

Here is more proof that silence is binding:
God said a priest could only come from the tribe of Levi, this excluded all other tribes.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood

The fact that Moses spoke NOTHING concerning Juda and priesthood, showed that priesthood could NOT come from Juda. He did not have to specifically say that, the fact he said it would come from Levi, already excluded any other. Same with the NT commands, the command given excludes anything else, it does not have to mentioned.

God in the NT speaks NOTHING of playing, so why is that you feel we are at liberty to add what God did not specifically forbade, if God gave us the command or what we are to do - Sing.

Jesus told us what to use for the lord's supper, he did not have specifically forbade every other type of food we cannot use. When he said unleavened bread, it exluced ALL other types of foods.

But you want the specific comamd that says YOU cannot use.....You not going to find it. ANd that is a weak method of interpretation, because you will not be able to remain consistent.

IF I am wrong, prove me wrong, can we use pizza? If not, why not?

 

[Nautilus]

HE specifically said to use Bread and Wine which most churches dont even do nowadays anyways they use grape juice. So based on the fact that only the word sing is mentioned you feel this is a ban on instruments of any tye even though the human voice itself is an instrument?

 

[LightningClap0002]

Nope, didn't miss it, yet I realize that it was under a different law and covenant. Did you miss Col chapter 2? That reveals to us that the Law has been nailed to the cross.

So what is was used in the OT? Do you also feel it is okay to sacrifice animals and burn incense at altars?

The OT was physical, the NT is spiritual, we dont sacrifice a lamb, Jesus did that. We don't burn instance, we pray. We dont make melody with a physical instrument, we do it spiritually with the heart.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

If those under the NT are termed as the "true worshippers" that implies that before they were not the permanent image of what God wanted. They were the physical symbolization of the true image that comes only in the NT. So why would we use those under a shadow (Heb 10) to justify what we can or cannot do under the NT?

Using the OT for authority in the NT is not how we are to use the word properly. Otherwise you open the door for all kinds of things.

I'm sorry my friend, but I won't accept this opinion. "The OT was physical" is a gross over-generalization. There is much in the NT that is also physical (Matthew 25, just off the top of my head). It is about what we do that that praises God.

Also, I'm confused by your reference to worship when we are on the topic of praise. To me they have always been two different things (they are different words). To me, and who I read and interpret, worship is a matter of reverence, praise is a matter of thankfulness.

 

[feedm3]

HE specifically said to use Bread and Wine which most churches dont even do nowadays anyways they use grape juice.

Like I said, now your being inconsistent. You say we should only use bread because he said to use bread. Yet he also said to "Sing" and never said anything about playing, but here you feel it is justified to add what he did not say, yet in the Lord's supper you say we cannot because of what he did say. Inconsistent.

When one starts this, then you see opinion manifesting instead of using the Bible for our authority.

So based on the fact that only the word sing is mentioned you feel this is a ban on instruments of any tye even though the human voice itself is an instrument?

Hence why I said "mechanical" instruments of music, did think I needed to say it evertime. And the voice is an instrument, and it the only instrument the Bible says to use under the NT. So again, if we cannot add pizza, why can we add any other instruments?

And you also did not ansewr if we can sacrifice animals or not?

 

[feedm3]

I'm sorry my friend, but I won't accept this opinion. "The OT was physical" is a gross over-generalization. There is much in the NT that is also physical (Matthew 25, just off the top of my head). It is about what we do that that praises God.

It ws not me who made this "over generlaztion" the Bible tells us the things uner the Old law were a shadow, but the true image is spiritual. Heb 10:1-f. Col 2:14-f. These things represented the true, they were a shadow of what was to come. What came was the "true worshipers" that worship in spirit and in truth.

I never meant to imply there is not anything physical in the NT, that would be absurd, we live in a physical world.

I meant the the things that foreshadowed were not spiritual themselves, but represented the spiritual.

For example.
The Temple - a physical building that was said to be God's dwelling place.

NT - The temple is now spiritual, made up of Christians, God's dwelling place, there is not a physical temple anymore that God "dwells in", Yet that does not mean Christians do not meet in physical building, yet the Building is just a building, the Christian is the temple, the spiritual body of Christ.

The Tabernacle - the holy room, only the physical high priest could enter.

The NT, the holy room is heaven, and Christ our spiritual High priest, has entered as the forerunner for us all.

The lamb without blemish for sacrifice. It was a physical lamb without any physical spots.

Jesus is that lamb spiritually, he not literally a lamb. He was not literally without blemish(or if he was that's beyond the point) he was "un-spotted" from the world, meaning he was sin free.

These things were all physical things that looked forward to the spiritual.

The burning of incense in worship. Was the act of literally burning incense, yet the NT is shown this symbolized the prayers of the saints - Revelation.

So we no longer burn incense we pray as a sweet odor to God.

It was the same with the use of stringed instruments and other types. It symbolized the Christians who "pluckes the strings of the heart", the literal meaning of "psallo" in Eph 5:19.

We are to make melody in our heats - again this is spiritual. Not only do we see anywhere in the NT the early church using them, we also have the command to "sing".

Just as we understand why animal sacrifice, the temple, the tabernacle, burning of incense all ceased because of what they symbolized, we also should use the same reasoning with mechanical instruments.

I am not Methodist, but this quote surprises many Methodists:

John Wesley (1703-1791), a father of Methodism

"I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard."


The fact is using instruments is something still new. Only in the last couple hundred years.

Also, I'm confused by your reference to worship when we are on the topic of praise. To me they have always been two different things (they are different words). To me, and who I read and interpret, worship is a matter of reverence, praise is a matter of thankfulness.

praise is a part of worship. It glorifies God. it is done with reverence and fear, Col 3:17. Yet the entire act of worship, includes praise, prayer, communion, etc.

We are to these according to what God says, not according to what pleases us. Not saying that's what you do, I am just saying this in general.

 

[Nautilus]

Like I said, now your being inconsistent. You say we should only use bread because he said to use bread. Yet he also said to "Sing" and never said anything about playing, but here you feel it is justified to add what he did not say, yet in the Lord's supper you say we cannot because of what he did say. Inconsistent.

When one starts this, then you see opinion manifesting instead of using the Bible for our authority.



Hence why I said "mechanical" instruments of music, did think I needed to say it evertime. And the voice is an instrument, and it the only instrument the Bible says to use under the NT. So again, if we cannot add pizza, why can we add any other instruments?

And you also did not ansewr if we can sacrifice animals or not?

Sure we can sacrifice animals...why not I mena it might be pointless but we can do it all we want. Same like pointlessly trying to convince you about instruments in a church. I mean unless you honestly believe people that use instruments are going to go to hell I personally don't care how drab your sunday songs sound.

 

[feedm3]

Sure we can sacrifice animals...why not I mena it might be pointless but we can do it all we want. Same like pointlessly trying to convince you about instruments in a church. I mean unless you honestly believe people that use instruments are going to go to hell I personally don't care how drab your sunday songs sound.

Wow do you people always get mad when your exposed for your inconsistency? And dont start putting words in my mouth, thats only the beginning of your next tatcic - the straw man argument.


And if you seriously feel we can sacrifice animals for a sin offering, even though Christ has already came and died, and your not in sin, you really need to read the NT. Most letters from Paul are telling Christians NOT to do exactly what you just said we can.

P.S. You just proved why you think the way you do with that "how drab" our songs are. So your saying now if one opens the Bible to Col 3:16, and Eph 5:19, the only two places in the NT where we are told how to sing, your saying that If one does exactly what it says in those passages, then his worship is "drab" to you.

And thats what it's all about YOU and what YOU like to hear. Yet I know if one SINGS exactly how we are told in Eph and Col, then our worship is pleasing to God, and that's all I care about. I could care less what you like or dont like, why would I even listen to you, you still believe we can sacrifice animals for a sin offering and be okay. That is your ridiculous FORCED conclusion due to your inconsistency. You have to say that in order to try and be consistent.
Now your mad because I forced you to say something ridiculous, like we can still sacrifice animals under the NT, forget the book of Rom, Gal, Col, Hebrews, just throw them out because YOU feel we still can.

NO thanks.

Stop being so cocky and just learn to ask what people believe, then you might not get so mad when your exposed.

 

[Nautilus]

Clearly you missed or more likely conveniently ignored Sure we can sacrifice animals...why not I mena it might be pointless but we can do it all we want. I never said sacrificing animals would be of any benefit but its still doable just as doable as opening a door or plucking a guitar string. And I have no desire to ask what you believe. I have seen and heard plenty about the 'church of Christ' a term i use loosely, to know that i dont ever want to hear more. So you can continue to try to tell me im wrong and that music in church is bad, and that baptism is necessary to be saved, but in the end youre just talking to yourself at this point.

 

[feedm3]

Clearly you missed or more likely conveniently ignored Sure we can sacrifice animals...why not I mena it might be pointless but we can do it all we want.

I didnt miss it at all. Just because you said it was pointless, does not mean we can do so. It is a sin to go back to the law of Moses. If you did not know that then I suggest reading more. Any Christian who would bring an animal to sacrifice, when the only reason they were sacrifed was for sin offerings, would be denying the blood of Chirst. So NO we cannot "do it all we want", even if you think it's pointless.

I never said sacrificing animals would be of any benefit but its still doable just as doable as opening a door or plucking a guitar string.

Does not matter, we still cannot do it. If you think we can, then go on thinking that. It would seem you missed the point of the NT. Even if you think one who deos it is not benifted. This is just silly anyway.

And I have no desire to ask what you believe. I have seen and heard plenty about the 'church of Christ' a term i use loosely, to know that i dont ever want to hear more.

Okay, then why are you taking to me. would you rather tell me what I believe? Like I said, cocky and arrogant, and I could care less what you heard about the church of Chirst. If you want to know what a Catholic believes, dont go to a baptist to find out.

Still, you backed yourself into a corner, now either you must admit your inconsisnt, or believe its okay for some to try and sacifince animals in worship, even if you dont believe they are benifted. DUde that is just plain stupid, I know you cant really ebleive that, it just a forced conclusion.

So you can continue to try to tell me im wrong and that music in church is bad, and that baptism is necessary to be saved, but in the end youre just talking to yourself at this point.

Lol. Okay man, I am sorry you cannot prove anything you say. And I am sorry you only believe what "your pastor" teaches you to believe.

Why bring up baptism, trying to change the subject.

I didn't say baptism saves you, Peter did.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

I know, your "pastor" said that verse does not really mean what it says.

So do you believe you can go to heaven with all your sins?
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord

I know I Know, you pastor said this was not true either, and it does not mean what it says.

Anyway, you obviously cant think for yourself, nor prove anything you say.

If so prove to me it's okay for me to bring an animal to worship and attempt to sacrifice it for my sins. Show that one please. Even if you believe it's pointless, you said it's okay to do it still, so show that please. Maybe ask your pastor.

 

[Jullianna]

2 Samuel 6



6 David again brought together all the able young men of Israel—thirty thousand. 2 He and all his men went to Baalah in Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the Name, the name of the Lord Almighty, who is enthroned between the cherubim on the ark. 3 They set the ark of God on a new cart and brought it from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart 4 with the ark of God on it, and Ahio was walking in front of it. 5 David and all Israel were celebrating with all their might before the Lord, with castanets, harps, lyres, timbrels, sistrums and cymbals.
6 When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.
8 Then David was angry because the Lord’s wrath had broken out against Uzzah, and to this day that place is called Perez Uzzah.[e]
9 David was afraid of the Lord that day and said, “How can the ark of the Lord ever come to me?” 10 He was not willing to take the ark of the Lord to be with him in the City of David. Instead, he took it to the house of Obed-Edom the Gittite. 11 The ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-Edom the Gittite for three months, and the Lord blessed him and his entire household.
12 Now King David was told, “The Lord has blessed the household of Obed-Edom and everything he has, because of the ark of God.” So David went to bring up the ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David with rejoicing. 13 When those who were carrying the ark of the Lord had taken six steps, he sacrificed a bull and a fattened calf. 14 Wearing a linen ephod, David was dancing before the Lord with all his might,15 while he and all Israel were bringing up the ark of the Lord with shouts and the sound of trumpets.
16 As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, she despised him in her heart.
17 They brought the ark of the Lord and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it, and David sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings before the Lord. 18 After he had finished sacrificing the burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord Almighty. 19 Then he gave a loaf of bread, a cake of dates and a cake of raisins to each person in the whole crowd of Israelites, both men and women. And all the people went to their homes.
20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, “How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, going around half-naked in full view of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!”
21 David said to Michal, “It was before the Lord, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the Lord’s people Israel—I will celebrate before the Lord. 22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor.”
23And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.



(Michal had to learn the hard way not to criticize how the children of God expressed their love for Him and His holiness. )

 

[GuyforChrist85]

Totally rediculous. Being a follower of Christ is about a relationship with Him.

I could not bare to listen to much of this, but I got the gist of it. This is the true definition of legalism and a true distortion of what Christianity is all about.

 

[feedm3]

Yeah same old worn out argument of legalism. Yet I never said anything the Bible did not. Nor did I say you must accept what I believe. Thats everyone choice. What the difference if I say your wrong, and you say I am wrong? Wheres the legalism?

Was Paul legalistic? Read Rom 16:17, I Cor 1:10, Gal 1:8-9, II Thess 3:6.

It's not legalism for one to believe I must worship exactly how God says so. It's not legalism if I feel it's a sin to do so. Either way it's a sin for me. Even if God does not care, if I feel it is a sin, and do it just because everyone else is, it is sin for me.

I was commenting on the sermon the OP posted, he came to me telling me I am wrong, so does that make him legalistic as well? Actually if one does not agree with your views, that makes them a legalist in your eyes, that fits the definition more than me feeling it is sin to add to the word. You feel we should all believe what you believe, if not, then I am a legalistic.

This is what's old, the same old legalistic type comments, yet you all do exactly what you condemn, try to bind your opinion.
Because if I don't believe it's okay to use instruments like you do, then I am labeled by you as a legalist. Talk about hypocrisy.

 

[Nautilus]

Wow bit defensive how? If you noticed he said listen, which probably means the actual audio sermon at the top. Not everything in this thread is centered around you believe it or not. And yes the audio sermon is very legalistic, it comes from a very legalistic man.