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greatblue
Guest
Why would anyone say that the law was condemned...how would that even make sense?
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Why would anyone say that the law was condemned...how would that even make sense?
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Laodicea
Guest
Because it is taught that because Christ fulfilled the Law we are no longer under the Law. Meaning we no longer have to keep the Law. To be under the Law means to be under the condemnation of the Law.
If you "love as I have loved" as He put it, then you will find yourself keeping the 10 commandments.
If you keep the INSTRUCTIONS, but just because you're "commanded", then you still lack the great commission.
They go hand in hand, they are one and the same.
Can you love your fellow man AND break these?
Love the Father
Avoid idol worship
Keep His name Set Apart
Give yourself and other's a break
Honor your parents
Avoid hatred
Stop defiling marriage
Avoid stealing
Not slander or gossip or lie
Be happy with what you have
If you break these, then what can you call "love"?
This whole "to keep or not to keep" should be obvious.
And there's nothing hard about keeping them. IF we love each other.
You won't be sinless, ok? That's why we forgive. But you can have NO SINFUL INTENT for sure.
If you keep the INSTRUCTIONS, but just because you're "commanded", then you still lack the great commission.
They go hand in hand, they are one and the same.
Can you love your fellow man AND break these?
Love the Father
Avoid idol worship
Keep His name Set Apart
Give yourself and other's a break
Honor your parents
Avoid hatred
Stop defiling marriage
Avoid stealing
Not slander or gossip or lie
Be happy with what you have
If you break these, then what can you call "love"?
This whole "to keep or not to keep" should be obvious.
And there's nothing hard about keeping them. IF we love each other.
You won't be sinless, ok? That's why we forgive. But you can have NO SINFUL INTENT for sure.
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greatblue
Guest
OK I see what you are saying...
I think the issue here is always what people interpret "God's law" to be/mean. At the very least we should all acknowledge that the understanding of the condemning weight of God's law was increased by Christ's teachings.
Our salvation is not by law, but by grace and faith. You all know scripture says this. It says we are under grace not law, meaning we are accepted even though we did not earn it, but by God’s grace.
Scripture also tells us that when we receive Christ we are given the Holy Spirit for our instruction. It can be compared to a child being born into an earthly family, or being adopted in. It wasn’t good behavior that had anything to do with it, and unless we blaspheme against the HS, it isn’t our behavior that keeps us there.
Mark 3:28-29 28 I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme.29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”
Now that we have been born into the family of God, we are to grow up in that family. There are some pretty rotten sons of earthly families out there, and there are some pretty rotten Christians. God gives us guide lines in scripture for us to follow, just as earthly fathers do. His guide lines for living are based on love, they are perfect. God’s rules include rules for our entire universe, they are awesome. Our heavenly father is a good father, not like some earthly ones. The rewards of good behavior in this family are priceless, and the punishments can be severe. We are also asked to grow strong, and given difficult tasks at times for this to happen.
But our salvation is not what we earn, it is given us.
Scripture also tells us that when we receive Christ we are given the Holy Spirit for our instruction. It can be compared to a child being born into an earthly family, or being adopted in. It wasn’t good behavior that had anything to do with it, and unless we blaspheme against the HS, it isn’t our behavior that keeps us there.
Mark 3:28-29 28 I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme.29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”
Now that we have been born into the family of God, we are to grow up in that family. There are some pretty rotten sons of earthly families out there, and there are some pretty rotten Christians. God gives us guide lines in scripture for us to follow, just as earthly fathers do. His guide lines for living are based on love, they are perfect. God’s rules include rules for our entire universe, they are awesome. Our heavenly father is a good father, not like some earthly ones. The rewards of good behavior in this family are priceless, and the punishments can be severe. We are also asked to grow strong, and given difficult tasks at times for this to happen.
But our salvation is not what we earn, it is given us.
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edward99
Guest
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Laodicea
Guest
Isaiah 58:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
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edward99
Guest
Yes. Thank you
But what about the rest of the Commandment?
Exodus 31
The Sign of the Sabbath
12The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 13“But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. 14‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. 16‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’ 17“It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”
18When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God.
So, no work at all on the Sabbath, AND anyone who profanes it is to be put to death.
I don't think anyone is being put to death for profaning the Sabbath. So aren't we breaking it by not putting transgressors to death?
And how do we square that with this?:
Galatians 3
6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” 12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Intent of the Law
15Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 21Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
What does Paul mean?
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Hurricane1
Guest
Nice try. The key words in all of these scriptures is, "law of the SPIRIT". The written law of Moses has nothing to do with the spirit. It has everything to do with legalism. "as many as are led by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God". Jesus Christ gave us the Holy Spirit. By doing so, He wrote His law upon our heart and in our minds. Now, when we are living by the Spirit of God, we obey the law of the Spirit. Look back at ancient Israel. They didn't have a king... whu? Because God was their King. That is what God wanted. Then the people demanded an earthly king to take care of them. God gave them Saul, and look at what happened. That is what God wants today... to rule in our hearts and minds... DIRECTLY. Not through a written law.
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Laodicea
Guest
The Law written on the heart is the 10 commandments. The Law is written on the heart and lived out in the life.
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edward99
Guest
I assume you are 7th Day Adventist?
Aren't you and your denomination breaking The Law by not putting transgressors to death?
Travelling is prohibited also. Do SDA assemble and worship on that day?
How do excuse that?
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Laodicea
Guest
This thread is about what it means to be under the law. The sabbath commandment is found in Exodus 20:8-11 and there is no mention of putting people to death. That was a law for the nation of Israel putting people to death but, is not part of the sabbath commandment.
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Moe
Guest
As a Christian, I am not under the law and if you are a Christian you are not under the law. The law and the Sabbath was given to the Jews only, not to the Gentiles. What are you really trying to find out? Cheers
It's a shame that is has been taught that there is a separation between "OT" and "NT".
Please, if you are "not under the law", toss the whole OT.
But that won't happen because of the following 3 reasons:
1. The "battle" for creation.
2. Daniel.
3. Psalms make great fodder for P&W music.
That's all it's good for to most people. SERIOUSLY.
Nobody even bothers to understand the tabernacle and it's implements, which tell you metaphorically how to "construct" and worship within YOUR TEMPLE.
It's the same story, over and over and over from cover to cover.
Stoning:
Casting your "testimony" against a transgressor until they "die to self" (repent).
If they don't, cut them off (kick them out of the assembly)
"You shall not kill" does not mean you can also "throw a literal rock and kill your neighbor"
Matthew 18:15-17 describes the EXACT SAME THING without the metaphors.
The pharisees did the same thing we are doing today. Taking the metaphors and making them literal or changing the meaning in order to control people with religion.
Metaphors people.
Symbolism.
To test your heart and how deep you will dig for the truth.
You cannot understand NT symbolism without OT. Because that's where it's defined.
If you toss OT, you can toss Revelation too, cause it's all mirrored from OT verses.
There is no "new" covenant. The word is "RE-newed" covenant.
Haven't you seen the rainbow, circumcising the throne?
It's green with life and renewal.
They've never explained ANY of this to you. So go look!
There's very little time left to play catch up
Fulfilling law and prophets has been turned into abolishing law and prophets
Please, if you are "not under the law", toss the whole OT.
But that won't happen because of the following 3 reasons:
1. The "battle" for creation.
2. Daniel.
3. Psalms make great fodder for P&W music.
That's all it's good for to most people. SERIOUSLY.
Nobody even bothers to understand the tabernacle and it's implements, which tell you metaphorically how to "construct" and worship within YOUR TEMPLE.
It's the same story, over and over and over from cover to cover.
Stoning:
Casting your "testimony" against a transgressor until they "die to self" (repent).
If they don't, cut them off (kick them out of the assembly)
"You shall not kill" does not mean you can also "throw a literal rock and kill your neighbor"
Matthew 18:15-17 describes the EXACT SAME THING without the metaphors.
The pharisees did the same thing we are doing today. Taking the metaphors and making them literal or changing the meaning in order to control people with religion.
Metaphors people.
Symbolism.
To test your heart and how deep you will dig for the truth.
You cannot understand NT symbolism without OT. Because that's where it's defined.
If you toss OT, you can toss Revelation too, cause it's all mirrored from OT verses.
There is no "new" covenant. The word is "RE-newed" covenant.
Haven't you seen the rainbow, circumcising the throne?
It's green with life and renewal.
They've never explained ANY of this to you. So go look!
There's very little time left to play catch up
Fulfilling law and prophets has been turned into abolishing law and prophets
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Hurricane1
Guest
So I guess the words of Paul don't mean anything to you and your religion. The fact that Paul said if you say you have to obey even one law, you have to obey them all... says it all. To believe that we have to obey an external law means you have to throw away almost the entire NT. You have put yourself in the unenviable possition of having to obey all 413 laws... go for it, but you better read them real close. I'll bet you're breaking a lot of them.
To have the law written in one's heart (by the new birth) does not mean that one is seeking/believing to be justified through the law. But it does mean a totally different attitude towards it than one had before regeneration.
While you have said other things that I agree with I do not agree with your view of the law. This strict distinction that you make between external and internal (to the point of elevating the internal at the bereft of the external) is not what Paul taught. I would say that such a view is a modern day, primarily charismatic (in your case obviously charismatic) error. Yes, there is an external as well as an internal aspect of the law (as well as with all of the word of God), however, they do not contradict one another and both are equally needed. And unless you can memorize every "jot and tittle" of the law, you need that good ole' book as well.
1 Corinthians 7
One must remember that Paul was teaching people the New Covenant and many would not leave the Law of Moses....
The 10 Commandments of Yahvah God condemned us and through Yahshua the Messiah we can be pardoned.
Consider that Paul himself teaches above to keep the Commandments of Yahvah God.
If you think Paul taught anyone not to do so, then you see not that most often he refers to the Law of Moses and many stumble.
Yahshua the Messiah told us that:
Matthew 5
Yahshua the Messiah is our sin offering to be reconciled with Yahvah God.
Peace and Blessings in the name of Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.
One must remember that Paul was teaching people the New Covenant and many would not leave the Law of Moses....
The 10 Commandments of Yahvah God condemned us and through Yahshua the Messiah we can be pardoned.
Consider that Paul himself teaches above to keep the Commandments of Yahvah God.
If you think Paul taught anyone not to do so, then you see not that most often he refers to the Law of Moses and many stumble.
Yahshua the Messiah told us that:
Matthew 5
Yahshua the Messiah is our sin offering to be reconciled with Yahvah God.
Peace and Blessings in the name of Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.