No Mercy Without Justice

[TheAristocat]

Hebrews 9:23 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

The Torah being a pattern of the heavenly, it makes sense that God does not first forgive and show mercy without there being some form of shed blood or justice. Do you think this is the case? And if so, then on what level do you think this is relevant to our own lives?

Also notice that King David's sins were forgiven when he committed adultery and murdered. However, it was said, I believe, that the sword would never leave his house. Two of his sons were killed, his own son committed adultery with his wives, etc. But his sins were forgiven before this? How do you understand this?

 

[angelofmercy]

Hebrews 9:23 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

The Torah being a pattern of the heavenly, it makes sense that God does not first forgive and show mercy without there being some form of shed blood or justice. Do you think this is the case? And if so, then on what level do you think this is relevant to our own lives?

Also notice that King David's sins were forgiven when he committed adultery and murdered. However, it was said, I believe, that the sword would never leave his house. Two of his sons were killed, his own son committed adultery with his wives, etc. But his sins were forgiven before this? How do you understand this?

Jesus took away the sins of the world and yet we still have it with us. We must die as those who came before us did. True remission of sin can only come after truly dying!

 

[TheAristocat]

Jesus took away the sins of the world and yet we still have it with us. We must die as those who came before us did. True remission of sin can only come after truly dying!

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[angelofmercy]

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

I'm saying that we are all born to die like beasts. But it IS death that seperates us from sin. True removal of sin can only come by physical death. For now we are transformed by the renewal of OUR MINDS so that with the body we serve the law of sin until death, but with the mind, we serve God.

 

[TheAristocat]

I'm saying that we are all born to die like beasts. But it IS death that seperates us from sin. True removal of sin can only come by physical death. For now we are transformed by the renewal of OUR MINDS so that with the body we serve the law of sin until death, but with the mind, we serve God.

I see. So you're saying that even though our sins have been atoned for we still have sinful desires? I could see that. I was just talking about something a little different on the level of what God did with David. He forgave David's sins (and therefore David would not die), but justice was still served - one way or another. David lost a lot for his sin. Do you think that still applies to us today? Will God forgive us but still seek justice?

 

[angelofmercy]

I see. So you're saying that even though our sins have been atoned for we still have sinful desires? I could see that. I was just talking about something a little different on the level of what God did with David. He forgave David's sins (and therefore David would not die), but justice was still served - one way or another. David lost a lot for his sin. Do you think that still applies to us today? Will God forgive us but still seek justice?

Most certainly. But we must understand that BOTH good and evil come from God to serve His purpose of bringing us to to Him.

 

[Red33]

David had a perfect heart before the Lord and was always after God's mercy (1Kgs 11:4). He always sought God's mercy when he sinned (2Sam 12:22, Ps 109:21,26). David understood that mercy and goodness followed him all the days of his life (Ps 23:6) and we have those sure mercies of David (Acts 13:34). Mercy rejoiceth against judgment (Jm 2:13) because Christ was made the propitiation of our sins (Rom 3:25, 1Jn 2:2, 4:10). Propitiation means mercy-seat. Christ is our mercy-seat and it is His blood that was shed and sprinkled on the mercy-seat that satisfied the Father and made it possible for sinful man to receive God's mercy and grace for the forgiveness, complete cleansing and remission of ALL sin.

God does not deal with the believer according to his sin (Ps 103:10). He deals with the believer as with a son (Heb 12:7) according to what God has placed in the heart through grace (Heb 13:9) the moment of salvation (Eph 2:8,9). God will never judge the believer for his sin because His Son was already judged for all sin through death (Rom 8:3) and He has imputed His righteousness to the believer through faith (Rom 4:6,7). This is so difficult for so many to understand that God's goodness passes by all our concepts and understanding that we may have of Him through the natural mind.

We need to know the promises of God and to claim them as part of the faith that we have been given by the Son. Mercy has taken away what we deserve (wrath and condemnation) and grace has given to us what we don't deserve (God's favour). This is why, as a believer-priest, we must come boldly by faith to the throne of grace, obtain mercy, and find grace in the eyes of the Lord in the time of need (Heb 4:16, Rom 5:2). When sin abounds, God does not impute that sin unto us (2Cor 5:19, Rom 4:8) nor charge us with it, but makes grace much more (super-abundantly) abound toward us so that we can be free from that sin, not live in any condemnation associated with it and provide super-natural strength not to continue in that sin (Rom 5:15,20).

This is mercy rejoicing against judgment and it is the mercy and goodness that follows us and is sure and without partiality. God deals with us according to wisdom which is full of mercy and is justified of its children who are partakers of it (Jm 3:7, Lk 7:33-35).

Heb 9:11-17
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[Shilo]

Hebrews 9:23 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

The Torah being a pattern of the heavenly, it makes sense that God does not first forgive and show mercy without there being some form of shed blood or justice. Do you think this is the case? And if so, then on what level do you think this is relevant to our own lives?

Also notice that King David's sins were forgiven when he committed adultery and murdered. However, it was said, I believe, that the sword would never leave his house. Two of his sons were killed, his own son committed adultery with his wives, etc. But his sins were forgiven before this? How do you understand this?

When you shame someone you cause them to blush. This is considered blood shed. So when we come to GOD in our shame we come covered in our blood. Then we ask that our sins be forgiven and covered by the blood of Yeshua / Jesus. This means we died with Yeshua/ Jesus.

 

[TheAristocat]

David had a perfect heart before the Lord and was always after God's mercy (1Kgs 11:4). He always sought God's mercy when he sinned (2Sam 12:22, Ps 109:21,26). David understood that mercy and goodness followed him all the days of his life (Ps 23:6) and we have those sure mercies of David (Acts 13:34). Mercy rejoiceth against judgment (Jm 2:13) because Christ was made the propitiation of our sins (Rom 3:25, 1Jn 2:2, 4:10). Propitiation means mercy-seat. Christ is our mercy-seat and it is His blood that was shed and sprinkled on the mercy-seat that satisfied the Father and made it possible for sinful man to receive God's mercy and grace for the forgiveness, complete cleansing and remission of ALL sin.

God does not deal with the believer according to his sin (Ps 103:10). He deals with the believer as with a son (Heb 12:7) according to what God has placed in the heart through grace (Heb 13:9) the moment of salvation (Eph 2:8,9). God will never judge the believer for his sin because His Son was already judged for all sin through death (Rom 8:3) and He has imputed His righteousness to the believer through faith (Rom 4:6,7). This is so difficult for so many to understand that God's goodness passes by all our concepts and understanding that we may have of Him through the natural mind.

We need to know the promises of God and to claim them as part of the faith that we have been given by the Son. Mercy has taken away what we deserve (wrath and condemnation) and grace has given to us what we don't deserve (God's favour). This is why, as a believer-priest, we must come boldly by faith to the throne of grace, obtain mercy, and find grace in the eyes of the Lord in the time of need (Heb 4:16, Rom 5:2). When sin abounds, God does not impute that sin unto us (2Cor 5:19, Rom 4:8) nor charge us with it, but makes grace much more (super-abundantly) abound toward us so that we can be free from that sin, not live in any condemnation associated with it and provide super-natural strength not to continue in that sin (Rom 5:15,20).

This is mercy rejoicing against judgment and it is the mercy and goodness that follows us and is sure and without partiality. God deals with us according to wisdom which is full of mercy and is justified of its children who are partakers of it (Jm 3:7, Lk 7:33-35).

Heb 9:11-17
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

In David's experience when God forgave him the result was, "You are not going to die." However, there were still consequences. I see an obvious parallel with our own sinful condition the moment we accept the Gospel. Our sins are forgiven, and the death penalty is revoked.

2 Samuel 12:13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.

However, I'm curious that in spite of David's sins being forgiven justice still seems to be served.

2 Samuel 12:11-12 This is what the Lord says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.

What name would you give this act of God's if it were not justice? That's an honest question.

 

[episcopotic]

The Torah being a pattern of the heavenly, it makes sense that God does not first forgive and show mercy without there being some form of shed blood or justice. Do you think this is the case? And if so, then on what level do you think this is relevant to our own lives?

This has always disturbed me. I can forgive without insisting on reparations or sacrifice of any sort. God, who is sovereign, should be able to do the same. Therefore, the pattern of the heavenly is his choice. The need for blood and justice is his choice. That doesn't make sense to me.

This is one of the best critiques I've read of Christianity, mostly by Muslims, and it is nearly convincing. God can exercise his will. There is nothing outside of him that makes him require sacrifice. And if he chooses to require sacrifice...

 

[TheAristocat]

This has always disturbed me. I can forgive without insisting on reparations or sacrifice of any sort. God, who is sovereign, should be able to do the same. Therefore, the pattern of the heavenly is his choice. The need for blood and justice is his choice. That doesn't make sense to me.

This is one of the best critiques I've read of Christianity, mostly by Muslims, and it is nearly convincing. God can exercise his will. There is nothing outside of him that makes him require sacrifice. And if he chooses to require sacrifice...

Well, in my opinion it's a matter of morality. God has said that the soul who sins will die. He requires the death of the sinner. However, he wants sinners to live. In order to accomplish this he has to atone for (i.e. buy back) our lives. If he chose to pay another price or pay nothing at all he'd be requiring a higher standard for us and a lower standard of himself. He would be a hypocrite. I believe that's why he had to pay with his own life. It was a moral choice. A choice between honor and consistency or hypocrisy and double standards. God chose honor and consistency.

Proverbs 20:23 The LORD detests differing weights, and dishonest scales do not please him.

I have no problem with him requiring a sacrifice. I just want to know what exactly the sacrifice takes care of. It seems to take care of the death penalty and "forgives our sins", but do we still have to suffer as David did?

 

[PopClick]

There is nothing outside of him that makes him require sacrifice. And if he chooses to require sacrifice...

But He also provided the sacrifice FOR us. He set it up for our sins to be atoned for, even before He created those who would sin.

I just want to know what exactly the sacrifice takes care of. It seems to take care of the death penalty and "forgives our sins", but do we still have to suffer as David did?

I believe that we are sometimes punished on Earth for choices we have made. Sometimes difficult situations are the "chastening of the Lord", and sometimes they aren't. I try to always ask God, when I'm going through a trial, "What would You have me learn through this?"

 

[TheAristocat]

But He also provided the sacrifice FOR us. He set it up for our sins to be atoned for, even before He created those who would sin.

I believe that we are sometimes punished on Earth for choices we have made. Sometimes difficult situations are the "chastening of the Lord", and sometimes they aren't. I try to always ask God, when I'm going through a trial, "What would You have me learn through this?"

Yes, I agree he disciplines us. So you would call what David suffered through discipline then and not justice? It's interesting that God would not have given us mercy without first executing some form of justice (only through Christ's sacrifice did we receive mercy). Otherwise it seems like God would have to compromise on justice to deliver mercy. And that seems wrong to me - to ignore justice for the sake of mercy.

What do you think?

 

[PopClick]

I've always thought of David's "punishment" as a consequence of his disobedience, something he had to live with and remember... he wouldn't be able to brush off anything he had done as "Oh well, water under the bridge, la-dee-da, all is forgiven". But I don't think his subsequent trials are what brought him forgiveness.

Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. 14“However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.”

The fact that Nathan used the past tense, "The lord has taken away your sin", before the child had died, is partly what makes me say that. But I could also be wrong.

 

[TheAristocat]

I've always thought of David's "punishment" as a consequence of his disobedience, something he had to live with and remember... he wouldn't be able to brush off anything he had done as "Oh well, water under the bridge, la-dee-da, all is forgiven". But I don't think his subsequent trials are what brought him forgiveness.

Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. 14“However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.”

The fact that Nathan used the past tense, "The lord has taken away your sin", before the child had died, is partly what makes me say that. But I could also be wrong.

Yes, I didn't mean to say that God hadn't forgiven David. I thought I had made that clear. But even years ago I didn't believe that forgiveness precluded justice or vice versa. I believe you can have both - just as criminals can be converted in prison but still face their full sentences. They repent and are saved from the penalty of sin (i.e. death) and may even be forgiven by those they have wronged, but justice is still served to the rest of the community by the criminals living out their sentences.

In the Torah the sins of the people were "atoned for" by sacrifices (and it's possible this atonement was meant in a ritual context - not to be confused with the real thing), but there was still a system of justice that every person was held to in spite of their sins being "atoned for". Eye for an eye justice was still observed. And I think that was fair to those who such criminals had wronged. If they stole, then they would give back. If they injured, then they would be injured.

God kept David alive, but it could still be said that eye for an eye justice was upheld. David's son Absalom died, because David took a life. A man committed adultery with his wives, because he had committed adultery with another man's wife. I believe justice is a balancing concept. I'm not entirely sold on this idea, but it is beginning to make sense.

 

[PopClick]

Yes, I didn't mean to say that God hadn't forgiven David. I thought I had made that clear. But even years ago I didn't believe that forgiveness precluded justice or vice versa. I believe you can have both - just as criminals can be converted in prison but still face their full sentences. They repent and are saved from the penalty of sin (i.e. death) and may even be forgiven by those they have wronged, but justice is still served to the rest of the community by the criminals living out their sentences.

In the Torah the sins of the people were "atoned for" by sacrifices (and it's possible this atonement was meant in a ritual context - not to be confused with the real thing), but there was still a system of justice that every person was held to in spite of their sins being "atoned for". Eye for an eye justice was still observed. And I think that was fair to those who such criminals had wronged. If they stole, then they would give back. If they injured, then they would be injured.

God kept David alive, but it could still be said that eye for an eye justice was upheld. David's son Absalom died, because David took a life. A man committed adultery with his wives, because he had committed adultery with another man's wife. I believe justice is a balancing concept. I'm not entirely sold on this idea, but it is beginning to make sense.

You did make it clear that God had forgiven David. I was highlighting the past tense phrasing of what Nathan said, which makes it sound as though David has been forgiven before his child dies, before any of the other consequences happen. Yes, they were foretold, yes they overshadowed the rest of David's life on Earth... but he was indeed forgiven right away, before any of the consequences had taken place. I think the past tense phrasing is relevant to this part of the OP:

The Torah being a pattern of the heavenly, it makes sense that God does not first forgive and show mercy without there being some form of shed blood or justice. Do you think this is the case? And if so, then on what level do you think this is relevant to our own lives?

 

[TheAristocat]

You did make it clear that God had forgiven David. I was highlighting the past tense phrasing of what Nathan said, which makes it sound as though David has been forgiven before his child dies, before any of the other consequences happen. Yes, they were foretold, yes they overshadowed the rest of David's life on Earth... but he was indeed forgiven right away, before any of the consequences had taken place. I think the past tense phrasing is relevant to this part of the OP:

I have a bad habit of not jumping to conclusions and sometimes of not even arriving at them. Could you explain to me how the two are related?

 

[PopClick]

I have a bad habit of not jumping to conclusions and sometimes of not even arriving at them. Could you explain to me how the two are related?

It may have had more to do with the fact that I was typing those posts at 1 AM. And so I shall try again.

You said, in the OP: "it makes sense that God does not first forgive and show mercy without there being some form of shed blood or justice. Do you think this is the case?"

I was trying to say that God had already forgiven David, before the child had died and the other consequences of David's actions had happened. So I think God can, indeed, FIRST forgive and show mercy, and THEN still require some kind of shed blood or justice. Even if the "justice" is just as an example for other people, so they will not say, "but David got away with it".

I hope I've made more sense that time, or perhaps I just didn't understand what you were saying in your OP.

 

[TheAristocat]

It may have had more to do with the fact that I was typing those posts at 1 AM. And so I shall try again.

You said, in the OP: "it makes sense that God does not first forgive and show mercy without there being some form of shed blood or justice. Do you think this is the case?"

I was trying to say that God had already forgiven David, before the child had died and the other consequences of David's actions had happened. So I think God can, indeed, FIRST forgive and show mercy, and THEN still require some kind of shed blood or justice. Even if the "justice" is just as an example for other people, so they will not say, "but David got away with it".

I hope I've made more sense that time, or perhaps I just didn't understand what you were saying in your OP.

That makes a lot more sense. In fact it states my feelings with much more clarity than I was able to put into words. Justice is both a deterrent to crime and a system of fairness. I believe that even if a person is forgiven they should still face some form of punishment or discipline - if for nothing more than a mere deterrent. If the Kingdom of Israel had no form of punishment its laws would be entirely merciful but neither fair nor persuasive. The common citizen's morale would sink to a record low.

And I believe that if God reconstructed some form of physical kingdom today which included both Jews and Christians, then I would argue that his righteous character would necessitate the inclusion of physical justice alongside spiritual mercy.

 

[PopClick]

That makes a lot more sense. In fact it states my feelings with much more clarity than I was able to put into words. Justice is both a deterrent to crime and a system of fairness. I believe that even if a person is forgiven they should still face some form of punishment or discipline - if for nothing more than a mere deterrent. If the Kingdom of Israel had no form of punishment its laws would be entirely merciful but neither fair nor persuasive. The common citizen's morale would sink to a record low.

And I believe that if God reconstructed some form of physical kingdom today which included both Jews and Christians, then I would argue that his righteous character would necessitate the inclusion of physical justice alongside spiritual mercy.

I'm glad the fourth time was the charm. My trains of thought can be a little hard to follow for some. I knew I'd get it eventually, though.