The dead are asleep

[IMINJC]

chesser


You Said: why dispute over a carcass? thats like you and your sisterdisputing over who gets to keep the dead bunny rabbit you found.

Fair question, but it's not for you or me to assume or speculate the reason why. The safe thing to do is accept scripture as the Lord gives it to us, and avoid adding to it or taking away from it. If the Lord thought it was important enough for us to know the reason why the dispute took place over the carcass of Moses He would have given us the reason in scripture, so since He did not, we must accept it as is. Any opinion as to why this took place is only speculation on my part and yours.

 

[A-Omega]

Hey man you overlooked a key word in verse one

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


Signified. Gr. sēmainō, “to indicate [or, “attest”] by a sign,”=symbolic

I don't follow. How do you get that what John wrote was all symbolic from that definition???

28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. Acts11:28.

Same exact Greek work. Was Agabus speaking symbolically?? No. It just means that he indicated what was going to literally happen in the future.

 

[A-Omega]

A-OMEGA


Laodicea said: The Bible tells us that Moses was resurrected.

YOU ASKED LAODICEA: And where is this??? ....

(very good question by the way.)

Laodicea responded: Do a search on Moses in the NT and you will find it


LOL!....Well did you do the search?.... If you did, this is what comes up.

MATTHEW 17
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Can you believe it?...The very scripture that you used to clearly show that Moses is not sleep, Laodicea uses to show that he was resurrected somehow.

The FACT is that this verse and no other verse in the Bible says that Moses was resurrected....The only FACT that can be found here is that Moses is definitely not sleep.

Can't you just hear the soul sleep scholars... "How do we disprove this?...."Moses is is clearly alive here and he should be sleep..."why is he not sleep?"...."Darn it to Heck!"...."Well God must have resurrected him ahead of resurrection day for this occasion."...."But why would God do that?"..."Who cares he does what he want's, we need an explanation here and that's as good as any."

LOL

>>>>>>
LOL

 

[GreenNnice]

Dear Lord, help me to have heard words from you just now what I'm about to say, amen, in your precious name, Lord, amen, amen, amen, for your Word, that proves all, tells all, IS all. You are All And All, my Saviour, my Lord, my Redeemer,, my King.

THEN WHO ARE THESE

Revelation 6
The Fifth Seal—Martyrs

9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

If we go to the contextual understanding of all of Revelation, we must start with Rev. 1:1.

Rev. 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show his servants-- things which must shortly take place. and He sent and signified it by His angel and to His servant John.

Let's look carefully at this verse, my Christ peeps.

What is this verse saying to you, using pure logic that this is Christ revealing a vision to John of what will be happeninf in end times?

This revelation is being shown to who? His servants.

And, are these things to come happening in end times said by Christ to be told and unfold through symbolic form or literal form?

Does Christ say these things to come might take place or must take place that John reveals to all?

Now, we get to interesting scripture, with a word which must boggle one's mind, for it signifies so much...
'Signified,' what does this marvelous-legged word mean to you, it is trult a word that defines the complete Revelation of Jesus Christ

Now, how so can it be that it means what it truly, in unadultereated meaning, defines for all to grasp.
What does the true meaning of 'signify' mean as related and contexted to the 2nd part of Rev. 1:1 ?

I went to the 'net and came up with these 'signify/signified' verses, testament coming to you, from the old and new

Acts 23:15 Now then, you and the Sanhedrin petition the commander ... ... Now therefore ye with the council signify to the chief captain that he bring him down unto you to morrow, as though ye would enquire something more perfectly ... //bible.cc/acts/23-15.htm - 18k

1 Peter 1:11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to ... ... Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory ... //bible.cc/1_peter/1-11.htm - 18k

Acts 21:26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself ... ... Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until ... //bible.cc/acts/21-26.htm - 18k

Hebrews 11:14 People who say such things show that they are ... ... For they that say these things, do signify that they seek a country. ... //bible.cc/hebrews/11-14.htm - 16k

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him ... ... A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it, having sent ... //bible.cc/revelation/1-1.htm - 18k

1 Kings 5:9 My men will haul them down from Lebanon to the sea ... ... shall bring them down from Libanus to the sea: and I will put them together in floats in the sea, and convey them to the place, which thou shalt signify to me ... //bible.cc/1_kings/5-9.htm - 19k

Acts 11:28 One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the ... ... and one of them, by name Agabus, having stood up, did signify through the Spirit a great dearth is about to be throughout all the world -- which also came to ...


Where is the symbolism in these verses contexted, the word 'signify' and 'signified' MUST be looked at its meaning passed the Greek and Hebrew, to the very real context within the words of the verse.

Signified = what?

Here, to me, relating it to itself's own hung verse as well as the other 'signify' verses, so, we do not unrightly divide the word, as laod will get mad at us, LOL. And, lol, will get upset too, for they WANT TRUTH NOT OPINION !

Well, my two Christ brothers, does this just maybe show REPREZENTATION of the word signify with needed meaning of describing real events that MUST take place and the uttermost importance of John's words must be taken such not as symbolic telling of something like Leviticus for martyrs in Rev.6 but of real literal meaning for John's vision as SIGNALED ('made real,' is that a real synonym?) by the Angel's message.sent to John. Dragons, beasts, stars, lampstands, so much vision, so much to John, for ALL our future sakes, that MUST be known, so, we can ALL do our part to help others become Godly as to NOT become left behind.

So you believe that there is a lamb in heaven with 7 eyes and 7 horns. Next you will tell me that the dragon with 7 heads is literal.

Hey man you overlooked a key word in verse one

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


Signified. Gr. sēmainō, “to indicate [or, “attest”] by a sign,”=symbolic

 

[LawofLove]

A-OMEGA


Laodicea said: The Bible tells us that Moses was resurrected.

YOU ASKED LAODICEA: And where is this??? ....

(very good question by the way.)

Laodicea responded: Do a search on Moses in the NT and you will find it


LOL!....Well did you do the search?.... If you did, this is what comes up.

MATTHEW 17
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Can you believe it?...The very scripture that you used to clearly show that Moses is not sleep, Laodicea uses to show that he was resurrected somehow.

The FACT is that this verse and no other verse in the Bible says that Moses was resurrected....The only FACT that can be found here is that Moses is definitely not sleep.

Can't you just hear the soul sleep scholars... "How do we disprove this?...."Moses is is clearly alive here and he should be sleep..."why is he not sleep?"...."Darn it to Heck!"...."Well God must have resurrected him ahead of resurrection day for this occasion."...."But why would God do that?"..."Who cares he does what he want's, we need an explanation here and that's as good as any."

LOL

Wrong Verse keep looking

 

[LawofLove]

I don't follow. How do you get that what John wrote was all symbolic from that definition???

28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. Acts11:28.

Same exact Greek work. Was Agabus speaking symbolically?? No. It just means that he indicated what was going to literally happen in the future.

How do you think he indicated it? He used a sign. The book of Daniel is a sister book to Rev. Maybe try to read Daniel to see what I mean. He to had a angel come to him and signify things to him about what would happen in the future. These two books go hand and hand.

 

[A-Omega]

How do you think he indicated it? He used a sign. The book of Daniel is a sister book to Rev. Maybe try to read Daniel to see what I mean. He to had a angel come to him and signify things to him about what would happen in the future. These two books go hand and hand.

He was in IN HEAVEN when he saw the martyrs. An angel did not come deliver the message to him. He was literally in Heaven. The angel who speaks to him has not even entered his presence yet.

The martyrs are describes so specifically:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

What is this supposed to "symbolize"? I mean the description of this passage is not even the language of symbolism used in the Bible. It's clearly a literal description.

And where in the Bible do we see symbols having a conversation with God? John just made up that conversation and attributes the words to God? Again, it just doesn't make sense. I don't know why we can't just trust the plain meaning of the text.

 

[edward99]

I don't know why we can't just trust the plain meaning of the text.

Because Seventh Day Adventism is a cult, with aberrant teachings.

 

[IMINJC]

LAWOFLOVE


YOU SAID: Wrong Verse keep looking


Darn It To Heck!...

 

[onoma]

where in the bible do we find he will bring us back from Heaven?

 

[onoma]

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him "verily i say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in Paradise."

And Jesus said unto him, "verily i say unto thee to day, thou shalt be with me in Paradise."

WHICH TRANSLATION IS RIGHT?

The interpretation of this verse depends entirely on punctuation, which rest wholly on human
authority, The Greek Manuscripts having no punctuation of any kind till the ninth century.

SO WHAT IS THE ANSWER?

Matt. 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the son of man be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her,"Touch me not for i am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my
brethren, and say unto them, i ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God,
and your God."

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before, spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his Soul was not left in Hell,
neither his flesh did see corruption.

Now this being true, how could Christ be in Paradise? Now where would you put the comma
in Luke 23:43?.

 

[edward99]

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him "verily i say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in Paradise."

And Jesus said unto him, "verily i say unto thee to day, thou shalt be with me in Paradise."

WHICH TRANSLATION IS RIGHT?

The interpretation of this verse depends entirely on punctuation, which rest wholly on human
authority, The Greek Manuscripts having no punctuation of any kind till the ninth century.

SO WHAT IS THE ANSWER?

Matt. 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the son of man be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her,"Touch me not for i am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my
brethren, and say unto them, i ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God,
and your God."

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before, spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his Soul was not left in Hell,
neither his flesh did see corruption.

Now this being true, how could Christ be in Paradise? Now where would you put the comma
in Luke 23:43?.

The "Amen I tell you..." Sayings of Jesus

The answer lies in the characteristics of the formula Jesus uses in Luke 23:43: "Amen, I say to you..." The Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels describes this formula as follows:

Amen is used one hundred times in the Gospels....It is always the first word of the formulaic expression "Amen I say to you," and it is always and only spoken by Jesus, apparently to emphasize the significance of the words he is about to speak. No other person - apostle or prophet - of the early church felt at liberty to follow his example by making use of this very formula (Dictionary of Jesus, p. 7).

Thus, we have a formula - apparently invented by Jesus2 - used nearly 100 times in the Gospels3, which precedes a solemn expression of great significance. The formula is never modified by an adverb of time; whatever follows is considered part of the expression Jesus emphasizes. Understanding "today" as part of the promise Jesus makes to the thief suits the context perfectly, for as John Gill points out in his Commentary, quoted above, the thief was asking Jesus to remember him in His future kingdom. But Jesus says to him, "Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

It seems obvious that the vast majority of translators throughout the centuries have understood that Jesus is here using the "Amen I say to you..." formula precisely as He does in nearly 100 examples elsewhere in the Gospels. It is unlikely in the extreme that only here - where the placement of the comma means so much to the Watchtower - does Jesus alter His formula by adding "today."

For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Luke 23:43

 

[GreenNnice]

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him "verily i say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in Paradise."

And Jesus said unto him, "verily i say unto thee to day, thou shalt be with me in Paradise."

WHICH TRANSLATION IS RIGHT?

The interpretation of this verse depends entirely on punctuation, which rest wholly on human
authority, The Greek Manuscripts having no punctuation of any kind till the ninth century.

SO WHAT IS THE ANSWER?

Matt. 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the son of man be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her,"Touch me not for i am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my
brethren, and say unto them, i ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God,
and your God."

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before, spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his Soul was not left in Hell,
neither his flesh did see corruption.

Now this being true, how could Christ be in Paradise? Now where would you put the comma
in Luke 23:43?.

I dunno what I will tell you today, you are wrong

 

[edward99]

I dunno what I will tell you today, you are wrong

I dunno how to tell you that, today you will be wrong.

 

[LawofLove]

He was in IN HEAVEN when he saw the martyrs. An angel did not come deliver the message to him. He was literally in Heaven. The angel who speaks to him has not even entered his presence yet.

The martyrs are describes so specifically:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

What is this supposed to "symbolize"? I mean the description of this passage is not even the language of symbolism used in the Bible. It's clearly a literal description.

And where in the Bible do we see symbols having a conversation with God? John just made up that conversation and attributes the words to God? Again, it just doesn't make sense. I don't know why we can't just trust the plain meaning of the text.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Not heaven. A vision.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were(or was like) of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew (or show)thee things which must be hereafter.

Compare:

Eze 1:1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

Again not Heaven a vision. (Emphases added)

 

[LawofLove]

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him "verily i say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in Paradise."

And Jesus said unto him, "verily i say unto thee to day, thou shalt be with me in Paradise."

WHICH TRANSLATION IS RIGHT?

The interpretation of this verse depends entirely on punctuation, which rest wholly on human
authority, The Greek Manuscripts having no punctuation of any kind till the ninth century.

SO WHAT IS THE ANSWER?

Matt. 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the son of man be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her,"Touch me not for i am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my
brethren, and say unto them, i ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God,
and your God."

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before, spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his Soul was not left in Hell,
neither his flesh did see corruption.

Now this being true, how could Christ be in Paradise? Now where would you put the comma
in Luke 23:43?.

To day. Gr. sēmeron. As originally written, the Greek was without punctuation, and the adverb sēmeron, “today,” stands between two clauses which read, literally, “truly to you I say” and “with me you will be in the paradise.” Greek usage permitted an adverb to appear anywhere in a sentence the speaker or writer desired to place it.

Merely from the Greek construction of the sentence in question it is impossible to determine whether the adverb “today” modifies “I say” or “you will be.” Either is possible. The question is, Did Jesus mean to say, literally, “Truly to you I say today,” or “Today with me you will be in paradise”? The only way of knowing which Christ meant is to discover scriptural answers to some other questions: (1) What is paradise? (2) Did Jesus go to paradise on the day of His crucifixion? (3) What did Jesus teach about the time when men would enter upon their reward in paradise?


(1)In the NT paradeisos occurs only in Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7. In 2 Cor. 12:2–4 “paradise” is obviously synonymous with “heaven.”

(2&3)On the eve of the betrayal—less than 24 hours before making this promise to the thief—Jesus had told the Twelve, “In my Father’s house are many mansions. … I go to prepare a place for you. … I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” Yet, three days later after Jesus died He informed Mary, “I am not yet ascended to my Father”
Obviously Jesus did not go to heaven when he died and could not be in paradise. Any other interpolation is a misunderstanding.

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

Sometimes when I'm bored and I dont have anything better to do I like to read rebuttals to things that I believe.
I have to say that this is probably the strongest argument I have ever come across in favor of cessation of the soul at death. Not saying I believe it, but he does make a strong argument.

DCox: Bullinger - Rich man and Lazarus: An Intermediate State?

 

[Brother_Don]

Proverbs 26:17-24, would put it up, but don't know how to work this thing.

 

[RedTent]

Before Christ spent time as a man, scripture talked of death as being asleep with the fathers. After Christ spent time as He did before the resurrection, death was spoken of in scripture as being with Christ.

We know that we live with time, but God doesn’t. God is eternal. The cross was part of eternity, and all through the time before Christ was on the cross there was a shadow of what Christ did. The shadow was the sacrificial system. By studying the details of that shadow, we can learn a lot about what Christ did on the cross. With the resurrection, Christ’s blood was for our salvation rather than the blood of animals that was only a symbol, a fortelling of Christ. Some think it also meant that those asleep could now be with Christ.

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

Before Christ spent time as a man, scripture talked of death as being asleep with the fathers. After Christ spent time as He did before the resurrection, death was spoken of in scripture as being with Christ.

We know that we live with time, but God doesn’t. God is eternal. The cross was part of eternity, and all through the time before Christ was on the cross there was a shadow of what Christ did. The shadow was the sacrificial system. By studying the details of that shadow, we can learn a lot about what Christ did on the cross. With the resurrection, Christ’s blood was for our salvation rather than the blood of animals that was only a symbol, a fortelling of Christ. Some think it also meant that those asleep could now be with Christ.

You know I was actually giving this some serious thought because it seems that the vast majority of the time, people use the Old Testament to prove soul sleep, and the New Testament to prove an intermediate state.

I'm thinking could it be true that people were just simply "dead" in the Old Testament (pre-Christ) but now go to be with the Lord in a conscious state in the New Testament (post-Christ). The good and the bad went to Sheol which could just simply mean the grave.

Because the Old Testament does seem to speak of death as being the end and does not explicitly suggest consciousnesses after death. The New Testament is somewhat of a different story though.

I mean the dead did come back to life after Jesus's resurrection.

Matthew 27:52-54
King James Version (KJV)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

I have been doing some research on the immortality of the soul and it does seem to have some pagan roots. Seems like it was something maybe rooted in ancient Egyptian religions and then infiltrated Greek culture through a Greek philosopher named Plato. The Hebrews in the Old Testament didn't seem to explicitly suggest a belief in an intermediate state.