Who is a Jew?

[Bookends]

Answer: ALL those who put their full trust in the atoning death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Once you authentically accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior through a heart felt repentance and an ongoing faith, not a mere moment of faith, but a faith that is eternal. This includes all mankind who placed faith in the coming savior (OT saints) and all those who look back to the cross with faith (NT Saints), this is God's true Israel. This means that the Church has always existed, it's just that the NT Church as been made more visible to the whole World. Thus you could say the OT church was invisible or not clearly seen and in the NT the Church is clearly made obvious for us to see. Therefore, Christians today don't replace natural or physical Israel, we are a continuation of Israel, true Israel. For the apostle Paul says,:

Roman 9:6
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
The seed is singular, their is only one seed. The seed represents Christ. All who receive Christ enter into the one seed, thus becoming brothers in Christ and Sons of God. This is a spiritual seed and is how we become of the elect of God. For God first elected Christ to take away the sins of His redeemed, then the believers are added to the election dependent upon faith in Christ. Paul makes this clearer in Galatians 3.

Galatians 3:26-29
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Therefore, there is no second plan of God for the natural/physical Jew today! They are saved in same manner as the 1st century Jew was, by the blood of Christ, the same way we are saved today. This is what Paul means says in Romans 11:26 that many Christians grossly misinterpret as today's State of Israel being "all saved."

Romans 11:25-27: (parenthesis are my comments)
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery (the gospel), lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to (natural)Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (the whole gospel believing church). 26 And **so** all (spiritual)Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion(Jesus Christ),
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob (by the redeeming power of the blood of Jesus);
27 For this is My covenant with them (the new and better covenant),
When I take away their sins” (those who wholeheartedly except the gospel message).

The Greek word for SO here is Strong's G3779, look it up, in means "in this manner", so what Paul is saying here the only way natural/physical/apostate Israel will be saved is by the same way or manner spiritual Israel is saved, which is by the mystery of the gospel.

The promises of God stand are being fulfilled in the true (spiritual)Israel today, the body of Christ, the church! If you have accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior authentically, then you have been sealed by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ. Which means you are a Jew and you are Israel, a true Jew and the church is true Israel. Look how James, natural 1/2 brother of Christ, addresses the Church:

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: (the new church, Christians, which consisted mostly of Jews).

2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, Greetings.
He is calling Christians the 12 tribes, spiritual Israel.



If there was a second plan for the natural/physical Jew, there is no mention of it in the NT, and Paul would have never said this in Romans 9:2,

2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen (the natural/physical Jew) according to the flesh," Paul felt anguish for his fellow natural/physical Jew because of their ongoing rejection of the gospel. That on going rejection is still going on today in the State of Israel. How does God accept them back? The answer is found in Leviticus 26,


Leviticus 26:40-42

40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.


The state of Israel, not individuals, has never repented for the crucifying their King. Therefore they are just another secular nation like the rest of us.



And the apostle Peter talks of the Church as a holy nation:


1 Peter 2:9-10 (parenthesis are my comments) Peter was a preacher and teacher to the Jews and stayed in and around Jerusalem. So Peter's main audience was primarily the 1st century (natural)Jewish Christians! This is important to consider because it makes it clearer what Peter is saying.

9 But you (1st century Christians which can and does apply to us today) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness (worthless religion and sin, an apostate nation) into His marvelous light (gospel of Christ); 10 who once were not a people (the unbelieving Jew, apostate Jew) but are now the people of God (because of their acceptance of Christ's work, the gospel), who had not obtained mercy (the apostate nation of Israel) but now have obtained mercy (forgiveness of God for their sins through the gospel).


Hope this clears things up!



May God's peace and love fill you all today, God bless.

 

[babyboyblue]

Hear, Hear.

 

[Mediate]

Not that Jews are not necessarily 'Israelites', and Israelites are not necessarily Jews.

It is Israelites who are 'God's chosen people'.

Just as Jacob was renamed 'Israel', so we must become Israel.

It is not a geographical place (as the real Israel was gone, a very symbolic event), but rather a way of life.

Something to think about.

 

[JaumeJ]

Gen 29:35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.

Above is how Leah named her last son, Judah. Hebrew is a fairly easy language in many manners, and yet it is very mysterious. The Ju in Judah is from Jah or Yah, and this is short for Yahweh. Here is something amusing and simple about the second half of the name, dah. Hand in Hebrew is Yad, and when we praise Yahweh, we raise our hands to Him. Thus yadah is praise! Sounds funny, like yada yada yada, but it really does.
Putting the two words together we have Praise or Praiser of Yahweh. With all of this understood, we know that by translation, anyone brought to the Father in Jesus Christ is a Praiser of Yahweh, Judah, a Jew..........simple as that. This by no means makes anyone a Jew by blood, unless referring to the Blood of God's Lamb, but it is certain we all are brought to be One Flock in the meaning of the word, amen.

 

[babyboyblue]

Gen 29:35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.

Above is how Leah named her last son, Judah. Hebrew is a fairly easy language in many manners, and yet it is very mysterious. The Ju in Judah is from Jah or Yah, and this is short for Yahweh. Here is something amusing and simple about the second half of the name, dah. Hand in Hebrew is Yad, and when we praise Yahweh, we raise our hands to Him. Thus yadah is praise! Sounds funny, like yada yada yada, but it really does.
Putting the two words together we have Praise or Praiser of Yahweh. With all of this understood, we know that by translation, anyone brought to the Father in Jesus Christ is a Praiser of Yahweh, Judah, a Jew..........simple as that. This by no means makes anyone a Jew by blood, unless referring to the Blood of God's Lamb, but it is certain we all are brought to be One Flock in the meaning of the word, amen.

Very interesting indeed.

 

[doulos]

The following parable appears in all three synoptic Gospels, (in Mat 9, Mark 2 and Luke 5), in which Jesus tells us what the future holds for His chosen people.
Luke 5:36-39“And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment (the New Testament Gospel) upon an old (The Levitical code); if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine (of the Gospel)into old bottles (of Moses’ law); else the new wine (of the Gospel)will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the (Old Testament) bottles shall perish. But new wine (of the Gospel)must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church)are preserved.”

So the New Wine of the Gospel is preferable to the Old Wine of the Levitical code, but how can the Jewish people be “preserved” if they don’t recognize Yeshua as their Messiah?

Leviticus 26:33-45 (excerpts) “I will scatter you (Isrealites) among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you . . . and they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands . . . And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God . . . But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.”

So salvation for the Jewish people does not depend on their sanctification, but on the covenant-keeping faithfulness of God.

Romans 11:8“According as it is written, God hath given them (the Jewish People)the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see (the Gospel). and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.”

So the question is this: Would God be just if He sends a people to Hell after He sovereignly blinded them to the Gospel?

Not according to this verse!
Romans 4:15“For where no law is, there is no transgression.”

Romans 11:11“I say then, Have they (the Jews)stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto theGentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.”
Romans 11:28-29“As concerning the gospel, they (the Jews)are enemies for your sakes: but as touching theelection (Greek:¦iλογήν, ekloge, by definition: divine choice) , they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Greek: •μgταμέλητος, ametamel¯etos, by definition: irrevocable or cannot be declared void).

Before Jesus went to the Cross, He said the following to Nicodemus . . .
John 3:3-10(excerpts) “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest notthese things?”
Since Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand being born again before the Cross, Old Testament believers were born again before the Cross! (also see 1Cor10:1-4 which shows both Old and New Testament saints drink from the same Rock and that Rock is Christ).

So did those Old Testament Jews spread throughout the whole world (who never even heard of Jesus) become un-born again immediately after the Cross?
Isn’t salvation based on faith and heart condition rather than doctrinal knowledge? Psalm 24:3-6, 51:17, Isaiah 57:15, 66:2, Micah 6:8, Romans 4:15, 11:8, 11:11, 11:28-29, Hebrews 11:4- 38 all declare it to be so. The point being: If a blinded Jew can be saved for one microsecond into the Christian era without recognizing Jesus as his Messiah, then Jews in that same spiritual condition can be born again right now without recognizing Jesus as his Messiah . . . Salvation has never been based on doctrinal knowledge, it has always depended on heart condition!

Matthew 27:24-25“When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed His hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, ‘His blood be on us, and on our children.’”
The Jews thought they were uttering a curse, but I’m not sure the Lord saw it that way.
“For by thy words thou shalt be justified.” Matthew 12:37
We are saved today because Jesus’ blood is upon us! Doesn’t that also hold true for the Jews?
Gen 17:7 speaks of an unconditional everlasting covenant with the seed of Abraham.
Lev 26:44-45 Shows Israel's restoration would not be conditional.
Isa 11:11 speaks of a second restoration of the Jews.
Isa 26:20-27:1 speaks of a final hiding of the children of Israel followed by Satan's complete judgment.
Isa 27:12-13 in context with the above, speaks of a final regathering of Israel.
Jer 30:4-8 speaks of the time of Jacob's trouble and future restoration.
Jer 30:18-24 states that a restoration for the tents of Jacob will take place in the latter days.
Jer 31:35-37 speaks of the permanent nation of Israel.
Jer 33:24-26 is a definitive unconditional covenant with Jacob's descendants.
Eze 16:60-63 speaks of an unconditional everlasting covenant with the Jews.
Eze 37:1-28 speaks of an unconditional restoration of Israel, followed by a major conflict in Eze 38-39.
Hos 11:9-10 speaks of a restoration of Israel from the West.
Joe 3:1-3 predicts the restoration of Judah, followed by war.
Amo 9:11-15 speaks of Israel restored to the land.
Zec 8:7-8 speaks of a post-exilic unconditional restoration of the Jews to Jerusalem and to the land.
Zec 10 & 12 contain more prophecies of a future restoration of the Jews.
Zec 14 speaks of final battle with the Jews in Jerusalem.
Luk 21:24 speaks of a dispersion, the time of the Gentiles, and a restoration following.
Rom 11:11 states that the Jews have not fallen.
Rom 11:17 states that only SOME of the branches were broken off.
Rom 11:17 further states that the church was grafted in AMONG the Jews.
Rom 11:28 states that the gospel age Jews are still elect.
Rom 11:29 states that God's calling of the Jews is irrevocable.
Rev 7:4-9 speaks of the 12 tribes of Israel during the Christian Era.
Rev 12:1-6 speaks of Israel during the Christian Era.
Rev 15:3 there are two songs, one for the Jewish people, one for the Gentile Church.
If the Jews cannot trust the promises God gave them, then the Church has no basis for trusting the promises God Gave to us!

Hope this clears things up!

 

[Bookends]

The following parable appears in all three synoptic Gospels, (in Mat 9, Mark 2 and Luke 5), in which Jesus tells us what the future holds for His chosen people.
Luke 5:36-39“And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment (the New Testament Gospel) upon an old (The Levitical code); if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine (of the Gospel)into old bottles (of Moses’ law); else the new wine (of the Gospel)will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the (Old Testament) bottles shall perish. But new wine (of the Gospel)must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church)are preserved.”

So the New Wine of the Gospel is preferable to the Old Wine of the Levitical code, but how can the Jewish people be “preserved” if they don’t recognize Yeshua as their Messiah?

Leviticus 26:33-45 (excerpts) “I will scatter you (Isrealites) among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you . . . and they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands . . . And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God . . . But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.”

So salvation for the Jewish people does not depend on their sanctification, but on the covenant-keeping faithfulness of God.

Romans 11:8“According as it is written, God hath given them (the Jewish People)the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see (the Gospel). and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.”

So the question is this: Would God be just if He sends a people to Hell after He sovereignly blinded them to the Gospel?

Not according to this verse!
Romans 4:15“For where no law is, there is no transgression.”

Romans 11:11“I say then, Have they (the Jews)stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto theGentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.”
Romans 11:28-29“As concerning the gospel, they (the Jews)are enemies for your sakes: but as touching theelection (Greek:¦iλογήν, ekloge, by definition: divine choice) , they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Greek: •μgταμέλητος, ametamel¯etos, by definition: irrevocable or cannot be declared void).

Before Jesus went to the Cross, He said the following to Nicodemus . . .
John 3:3-10(excerpts) “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest notthese things?”
Since Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand being born again before the Cross, Old Testament believers were born again before the Cross! (also see 1Cor10:1-4 which shows both Old and New Testament saints drink from the same Rock and that Rock is Christ).

So did those Old Testament Jews spread throughout the whole world (who never even heard of Jesus) become un-born again immediately after the Cross?
Isn’t salvation based on faith and heart condition rather than doctrinal knowledge? Psalm 24:3-6, 51:17, Isaiah 57:15, 66:2, Micah 6:8, Romans 4:15, 11:8, 11:11, 11:28-29, Hebrews 11:4- 38 all declare it to be so. The point being: If a blinded Jew can be saved for one microsecond into the Christian era without recognizing Jesus as his Messiah, then Jews in that same spiritual condition can be born again right now without recognizing Jesus as his Messiah . . . Salvation has never been based on doctrinal knowledge, it has always depended on heart condition!

Matthew 27:24-25“When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed His hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, ‘His blood be on us, and on our children.’”
The Jews thought they were uttering a curse, but I’m not sure the Lord saw it that way.
“For by thy words thou shalt be justified.” Matthew 12:37
We are saved today because Jesus’ blood is upon us! Doesn’t that also hold true for the Jews?
Gen 17:7 speaks of an unconditional everlasting covenant with the seed of Abraham.
Lev 26:44-45 Shows Israel's restoration would not be conditional.
Isa 11:11 speaks of a second restoration of the Jews.
Isa 26:20-27:1 speaks of a final hiding of the children of Israel followed by Satan's complete judgment.
Isa 27:12-13 in context with the above, speaks of a final regathering of Israel.
Jer 30:4-8 speaks of the time of Jacob's trouble and future restoration.
Jer 30:18-24 states that a restoration for the tents of Jacob will take place in the latter days.
Jer 31:35-37 speaks of the permanent nation of Israel.
Jer 33:24-26 is a definitive unconditional covenant with Jacob's descendants.
Eze 16:60-63 speaks of an unconditional everlasting covenant with the Jews.
Eze 37:1-28 speaks of an unconditional restoration of Israel, followed by a major conflict in Eze 38-39.
Hos 11:9-10 speaks of a restoration of Israel from the West.
Joe 3:1-3 predicts the restoration of Judah, followed by war.
Amo 9:11-15 speaks of Israel restored to the land.
Zec 8:7-8 speaks of a post-exilic unconditional restoration of the Jews to Jerusalem and to the land.
Zec 10 & 12 contain more prophecies of a future restoration of the Jews.
Zec 14 speaks of final battle with the Jews in Jerusalem.
Luk 21:24 speaks of a dispersion, the time of the Gentiles, and a restoration following.
Rom 11:11 states that the Jews have not fallen.
Rom 11:17 states that only SOME of the branches were broken off.
Rom 11:17 further states that the church was grafted in AMONG the Jews.
Rom 11:28 states that the gospel age Jews are still elect.
Rom 11:29 states that God's calling of the Jews is irrevocable.
Rev 7:4-9 speaks of the 12 tribes of Israel during the Christian Era.
Rev 12:1-6 speaks of Israel during the Christian Era.
Rev 15:3 there are two songs, one for the Jewish people, one for the Gentile Church.
If the Jews cannot trust the promises God gave them, then the Church has no basis for trusting the promises God Gave to us!

Hope this clears things up!

What are you saying? please tell me in a nutshell.

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

Romans 11:25-27: (parenthesis are my comments)
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery (the gospel)

Since when has the Gospel been a mystery???

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

 

[eternally-gratefull]

WHo is a jew? Jew is the name given to the southern tribe of Isreal, which originally consisted of two tribes and part of a third (Judah, Benjamin and Levite) Later the name was bestowed on all people who were of the nation of Isreal who lived in the same area (after the return from exhile)

Is a Christian Jew? No, According to pau, there is no jew or gentile, male or female, etc etc. We are called Chrisitans, We are called children of God. We are given the promise made to Abraham (in you shall all the nations of the earth be blessed) thus, since there are no jews or gentile, we are not jews.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Since when has the Gospel been a mystery???

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

Amen, Romans 11 is not talking about the mystery of the gospel. He was already talking about people who knew the gospel and were saved, So it would not be a mystery to them. The poster needs to study some more before he starts trying to add to the word of God.

 

[RedTent]

I agree with almost everyone who posted here. I appreciate those who pointed out the spiritual meaning of “Jew”.

At the same time, God did physically create a race of people through Abraham and his descendents. God has blessed those people by their race. They are also persecuted, just as Jesus was, according to their race. Paul says that even their being blinded to Christ as the Messiah is for our good. I think all Christians who check every scripture that pertains to God’s relationship to this race is helpful to our walk with our God.

God even says in Zechariah 8:23 that:
Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from nations of every language shall take hold of a Jew, grasping his garment and saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

 

[Bookends]

Since when has the Gospel been a mystery???

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

Most of ancient Israel didn't figure it out. Did they?

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

Most of ancient Israel didn't figure it out. Did they?

Context, context, context! The mystery is how one can be elect while being an enemy of the gospel.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

The context does not indicate that the gospel is the mystery. How can one be elect yet still be an enemy of the gospel for our sake? There is your mystery!! If you don’t understand this mystery may I suggest you read doulos’s post earlier in this thread.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

 

[Bookends]

The context does not indicate that the gospel is the mystery. How can one be elect yet still be an enemy of the gospel for our sake? There is your mystery!! If you don’t understand this mystery may I suggest you read doulos’s post earlier in this thread.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

That is basically what I said,

The Greek word for SO here is Strong's G3779, look it up, in means "in this manner", so what Paul is saying here the only way natural/physical/apostate Israel will be saved is by the same way or manner spiritual Israel is saved, which is by the mystery of the gospel. (maybe I should have added) To them, the non-believing Jew. It's also a mystery to the nonbeliever today! To those who are saved it's not a mystery.

The promises of God stand are being fulfilled in the true (spiritual)Israel today, the body of Christ, the church!

I'm sorry you and EG don't recognize the bond woman within apostate Israel and the free woman in the nation of ancient Israel. This is why Paul said "not all of Israel is Israel", because there are two aspects to it, a physical or natural aspect by descent and a spiritual one.

Thanks for you input though, and thanks for not deliberately insulting me and my intelligence. EG, I am deeply hurt over your words, but I forgive anyway. God bless both of you.

 

[doulos]

What are you saying? please tell me in a nutshell.

In a nutshell we don’t replace the Jews , but instead we are grafted in amongst them. How do you explain the elect that are enemies of the gospel for our sake but elect for their father’s sake? If they are enemies of the gospel they aren’t Christians, how can one that is not a Christian be elect? I know my earlier post was lengthy (but so was your original post) but it does explain this mystery.

God is true to His word and has kept His everlasting covenant with the Jews (to this day) just as He will keep His covenant with the New Covenant believers.

 

[Bookends]

In a nutshell we don’t replace the Jews , but instead we are grafted in amongst them. How do you explain the elect that are enemies of the gospel for our sake but elect for their father’s sake? If they are enemies of the gospel they aren’t Christians, how can one that is not a Christian be elect? I know my earlier post was lengthy (but so was your original post) but it does explain this mystery.

God is true to His word and has kept His everlasting covenant with the Jews (to this day) just as He will keep His covenant with the New Covenant believers.

I never said we replace Israel, I said we are Israel. Spiritual or true Israel. Once we become grafted in we become part of the cultivated olive tree. Once we become a believer the Spirit of Christ is joined with our spirit;
1 Corinthians 6
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Jesus was a Jew, the branch and root of Jesse, who also was a Jew. And I placed my faith in Christ I was grafted in as a wild olive branch and became part of that tree. The unbelieving Jew's branches fell off, but they too can be grafted in again, how?: the same way we are, "so" in this manner all Israel will be saved.



Therefore, Romans 8:29 Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers. I am not only in the body of Christ, but also a brother. Again, Jesus was a Jew. How can I not be a Jew, not of physical descent, but of a spiritual significance!? For since I was born again I became a son of God by adoption. In which I became a heir to the better promises of God.


Romans 8:12-17


Sonship Through the Spirit

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

A true Christian is a spiritual Jew, i'm not the one trying to divide the Jews and gentiles here. A true Jew and a true Christian are one in the same. By saying God has a separate plan for the natural Jew in the future is makeing a division that Paul was speaking against.

 

[JaumeJ]

There is ample Holy Scripture in the entire Word supporting that we are Israel. I am not going to clog a post with cuts and pastes, but one of the easiest manners of understanding is quite simple. Jesus, Yeshua, is the Good Shepherd. He had a Flock in having Israel, and He had another Flock in the Nations, and they are brought together.

It was placed over His Precious Dying Body on the cross, "King of the Jews" in Hebrew, Greek and the language of Rome.

All who truly believe worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob because of Jesus, Yeshua.

The capitol of our Israel is in Heaven and in His time and on His Glorious Day, Yahweh will bring it down from Heaven. That would be New Jerusalem.

We come through the Gate provided by the Children of Abraham, as per God's promise to him in Genesis. The Gate is Yeshua, Jesus, of course.

There are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of references and inferences to all of this throughout the Word.

Contrary to what unbelievers often say, the Word is not a collection of random predictions but the same message repeated in various manners for various believers' needs in understanding.

Yes, our spiritual nation is Israel, which may be translated, "Israel = Prince with God (El)," and are we not to be heavenly royalty with our King, God, forever? How much more do people need to recognize all of the family?

 

[doulos]

I never said we replace Israel, I said we are Israel. Spiritual or true Israel. Once we become grafted in we become part of the cultivated olive tree. Once we become a believer the Spirit of Christ is joined with our spirit;
1 Corinthians 6
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Jesus was a Jew, the branch and root of Jesse, who also was a Jew. And I placed my faith in Christ I was grafted in as a wild olive branch and became part of that tree. The unbelieving Jew's branches fell off, but they too can be grafted in again, how?: the same way we are, "so" in this manner all Israel will be saved.



Therefore, Romans 8:29 Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers. I am not only in the body of Christ, but also a brother. Again, Jesus was a Jew. How can I not be a Jew, not of physical descent, but of a spiritual significance!? For since I was born again I became a son of God by adoption. In which I became a heir to the better promises of God.


Romans 8:12-17


Sonship Through the Spirit

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

A true Christian is a spiritual Jew, i'm not the one trying to divide the Jews and gentiles here. A true Jew and a true Christian are one in the same. By saying God has a separate plan for the natural Jew in the future is makeing a division that Paul was speaking against.

Yet through all that you have not answered the questions I asked. How do you explain the Jew that has been given the spirit of slumbers until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in that is an enemy of the gospel yet still elect for their father’s sake? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? How can they be elect if they are not Christians? Doesn’t Scripture tell us we must be born again? So how are those enemies of the gospel born again, if not by observing the old (everlasting) covenant, the only one they are allowed to see?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is basically what I said,

The Greek word for SO here is Strong's G3779, look it up, in means "in this manner", so what Paul is saying here the only way natural/physical/apostate Israel will be saved is by the same way or manner spiritual Israel is saved, which is by the mystery of the gospel. (maybe I should have added) To them, the non-believing Jew. It's also a mystery to the nonbeliever today! To those who are saved it's not a mystery.

The promises of God stand are being fulfilled in the true (spiritual)Israel today, the body of Christ, the church!

I'm sorry you and EG don't recognize the bond woman within apostate Israel and the free woman in the nation of ancient Israel. This is why Paul said "not all of Israel is Israel", because there are two aspects to it, a physical or natural aspect by descent and a spiritual one.

Thanks for you input though, and thanks for not deliberately insulting me and my intelligence. EG, I am deeply hurt over your words, but I forgive anyway. God bless both of you.

1. You are making dangerous assumptions, your trying to read the passage from pre-concieved beliefs and force the passage to fit those beliefs. In doing so, your destroying context.

2. Strongs is a week greek help, it gives you a general idea of how a word can be translated. I recommend you get better ones.

3. Although "in this manner" does fit here, you still have to take the passage in context.

4. Context: He is writing to Gentiles (not spiritual jews)

Rom 11: 13 - 15:
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

5. Paul in this passage is separating Gentiles from Isreal (saved or unsaved) as he proves by saying he hopes he will save some of THEM (his flesh) as apposed to calling them spiritual jews or gentiles. The context of the passage is Gentile (saved or unsaved) vs isreal (saved or unsaved)

6. as for the mystery, not only did you completely ignore context, you destroyed sentence structure.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, (Saved GENTILES) that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion,

1. Again, He is speaking TO GENTILES, as he calls them gentiles, this your view they are spiritual jews is totally unfounded.

2. He tells them WHAT this mystery is, why? so they should not be ignorant of this mystery, which would do what? make them WISE in THEIR OWN OPINION.

3. Then he tells us WHAT this mystery is!

that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

THIS is the mystery, it is not the gospel as you want to believe, that only comes through your faulty belief system. Your trying to force your belief on the passage, instead of trying to interpret that passage for what it says.

1. Blindness is part. Not all of Isreal has rejected their messiah, There are many saved, Paul was one of them who recieved Christ, he is the "PART" of the nation who was not blind.

2. He gives us a frame of reference as to HOW long this blindness will last, "Until the fullness of the gentiles has come".

what is his warning? His warning is to people like you, who are wise in your own opinion that God has forgotten the nation of Isreal, and given his promises to the church, thus Isreal is no longer a nation God cares about, and he will never care about them again. Why should we NOT BE WISE IN OUR OWN OPINION?

Paul tells us in this passage,

1. Isreal, the natural branch, was cut off so we, the unnatural branch, can be grafted in, But we, the unnatural branch will do as Isreal did and fall away also.

2. Their unbelief has allowed us to believe, But how much more will our unbelief lead to their belief?

3. When our time has been fulfilled, What will happen?

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

Who is Jacob? Jacob is Isreal. God promised he would turn the Godliness of Isreal and bring them back to him. It is all over the OT prophesies, and here Paul is confirming thos prophesies, The OT said Isreal would reject, Because of her sin, be tramples, and sent to Gentile nations as punishment, But God will turn them back to him, and when this happens he will restor them. This is HIS PROMISE TO THEM! This is NOT SPIRITUAL ISREAL, it is concerning NATURAL ISREAL. Spiritual Isreal is not Jacob, never has been, never will be!

He goes on!

27 For this is My covenant with them,

Notice a very important thing here. Paul is talking to saved gentiles of the church of rome, Since he is talking to them, He is ALSO talking TO US, Yet Paul did not say God made a covenant with Gentile believers in Rome, Or to us, as believing Gentiles. He said this covenant is made with THEM! WHo is them? Jacob, Natural Isreal, the branch who was cut off because of unbelief, The people who rejected their messiah, The ones who were made blind in Part. You can not twist this to be speaking to spiritual Isreal, or spiritual jews, because Paul said THEM, NOT US!

When I take away their sin

When God takes away Who's sin? ISREALS! The promise is all over the OT. 70 weeks to make an end (take away) their sin. The time of Jacobs trouble, which will turn Isreal from their sin and bring them to God, etc etc. Again, He is not talking to us, He said THEIR sin, not OUR sin.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

1. Again, THEY vs US. Concerning the gospel THEY (ISREAL) are our enemy. Who are we? Believing gentiles. But

2. Concerning the ELECTION or the COVENANTAL PROMISES, THEY are to be LOVED for the sake of the fathers,.

Why??

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Gods promises, and covenants, and calling of the nation of Isreal are IRREVOCABLE. God is not going to change his mind because YOU think God had forgotten then and insteqad given their promises to us. Gods promises are and ALWAYS will be fulfilled, Man is not going to change Gods mind, By either doing what he said, or failing to do what he said, If God makes a covenant with a chosen NATION, and saids this covenant will be an ETERNAL COVENANT, they God will NOT GO BACK ON HIS PROMISE, even IF THEY REJECT HIM, WHich they did. HIS PROMISE STILL STANDS. In Fact GOD WILL OPEN THEIR EYES and as the prophesy states, ALL ISREAL (not gentile or spiritual isreal, but the nation of Isreal) will at one time in the future BE SAVED. and he tells us exactly when this time will happen. WHEN THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES IS COMPLETE.

You can twist this all you want, and appear to make yourself wise and continue to say we are unwise in our thinking, But I suggest you read what Paul says and stop trying to be wise in your own opinion and Think God has forgotten about the nation of Isreal There is a reason Paul gave us this command and warned us about being wise, It is dangerous what you are doing,

 

[RedTent]

[=doulos;] Yet through all that you have not answered the questions I asked. How do you explain the Jew that has been given the spirit of slumbers until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in that is an enemy of the gospel yet still elect for their father’s sake? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? How can they be elect if they are not Christians? Doesn’t Scripture tell us we must be born again? So how are those enemies of the gospel born again, if not by observing the old (everlasting) covenant, the only one they are allowed to see?

First, you are questioning God. Our place is to follow and obey, not tell God how to operate the world He created. Also, we are instructed about how to look at the Jews, and judging them is part of what we are told NOT to do.

All scripture teach Christ, grace, and God principles. Even Cain and Abel knew it was through blood they were accepted. It isn’t that Jews don’t believe in a Messiah, it is just that they only accept the description of the Messiah given for when He returns in the last days. To them, we are worshipping a false God. I think some of us are, if we deny God the Father who in reality is one with the Son. A false God is one that is created through men's ideas instead of the reality of how God is.

I don’t think there is a human person who knows God’s plans for His chosen people, it hasn’t been told to us. We are told to leave it to God.