Need help with these verses

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onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.(KJV)

Isa 48: 8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened : for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously , and wast called a transgressor from the womb.(KJV)
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Matthew 19: 14 But Jesus said , Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.(KJV)

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased , and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

==============================================================

What are the first two verses talking about? Are these exaggerations? How can one be "born speaking lies?"
How can one be a "transgressor from the womb?"

The last two verses talk about how Jesus emphasized on the fact that the kingdom of heaven belonged to "such as these."

Two questions about the last two verses:
Is Jesus actually saying that children are without sin?

What does "such as these" mean? To ellaborate my question: Is Jesus talking about the 'children' per se or about 'those who are like little children', or both?

As usual, I would appreciate Bible verses (if possible) to support your answers.
 
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We are spirit. God knows us from the womb. He is speaking about the wicked. It is their spirit and God also knows them from the womb.
This is important because many believe that one who acts evil in this world must have had something in life happen to them or that they were taught incorrectly. It is our nature ( love) that looks for a reason someone would choose evil, since it is foolishness to us. God is letting us know that wickedness rebels (against Him) even before birth. It is THEIR nature.
 
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.(KJV)

The above verse is commonly used as a proof text to support the erroneous contention that babies are born wicked. It is important to read the entire context surrounding a passage and in this case it can be clearly see that the author of the Psalm is using poetic hyperbole to make the point that the unrighteous go astray very early on. Babies do not have teeth nor do they speak.

1 To the chief Musician, Altaschith, Michtam of David. Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
9 Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.
10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Children are without sin because sin is a choice, it is not a disease.

Sin is transgression (1Joh 3:4), sin is doing wrong when YOU KNOW to do right (Jam 4:17). Sin is dead until the commandment comes (Rom 7:9). Sin is yielding to temptation wrought by the passions and desires of the flesh (Jam 1:14-15).

Eve sinned when she CHOSE to yield to temptation, she yielded to the passions of her flesh (Gen 3:6). When Adam and Eve yielded to those desires in direct disobedience to God they DIED that day (Gen 2:17). Paul explained that he died when he yielded to temptation when he had the knowledge it was wrong (Rom 7:9-11).



The early Church did not teach that babies are born sinners. This teaching was only accepted as church orthodoxy in 387AD through the prolific influence of Augustine.

Jesus taught that we are to approach God as children because it is a father/child relationship. God teaches us and we are to yield to His lead. God teaching us is by His grace and we faithfully abide in His teaching by a working obedient faith. This synergy of this process is what brings life to our souls.

This is why God calls all men to repentance. One cannot come to a knowledge of the truth (by yielding to God) unless one first forsakes rebellion against God. Rebellion is simply refusing to yield to God.

This is why Paul would say that you are a slave to whom you obey, sin unto dead or obedience unto righteousness (Rom 6:16). Paul then went on to say that righteousness (doing the right thing) produces holiness and then end of holiness is eternal life.

This is why God is the author of salvation of all those whom obey Him (Heb 5:9). Those who obey God are the ones who are yielding to God's instruction like little children. They truly trust and believe God at His word and therefore apply what He teaches as truth to their lives.

Purity of heart is the result.
 
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We are spirit. God knows us from the womb. He is speaking about the wicked. It is their spirit and God also knows them from the womb.
This is important because many believe that one who acts evil in this world must have had something in life happen to them or that they were taught incorrectly. It is our nature ( love) that looks for a reason someone would choose evil, since it is foolishness to us. God is letting us know that wickedness rebels (against Him) even before birth. It is THEIR nature.


If that is true then the wicked are not responsible for their sin because they were made that way. Under this teaching actual acts of sin are necessitated by the underlying sin nature. Thus sin is not an act of rebellion but rather the symptom if a disease.

If sin is the symptom of a disease instead rather than a crime against God then repentance is simply admitting you have this disease rather than being broken over your crimes.

The fundamental issues of how one views man and sin is extremely important as it lies at the root of all the theology which is constructed on top of it. A little leaven leavens the whole lump so to speak.
 
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.(KJV)

Isa 48: 8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened : for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously , and wast called a transgressor from the womb.(KJV)
==============================================================
Matthew 19: 14 But Jesus said , Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.(KJV)

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased , and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

==============================================================

What are the first two verses talking about? Are these exaggerations? How can one be "born speaking lies?"
How can one be a "transgressor from the womb?"

The last two verses talk about how Jesus emphasized on the fact that the kingdom of heaven belonged to "such as these."

Two questions about the last two verses:
Is Jesus actually saying that children are without sin?

What does "such as these" mean? To ellaborate my question: Is Jesus talking about the 'children' per se or about 'those who are like little children', or both?

As usual, I would appreciate Bible verses (if possible) to support your answers.
As a result of the fall of man, we are all born totally depraved rendering the tendency to sin and subjection to God's wrath. Psalm 58:3 basically means that we are naturally sinful from birth; children go astray. They exhibit selfishness and once they start talking, lies will come out of their mouth. You don't need to teach a child how to lie or steal before they start doing so.

However, as per Matthew 19:14, Jesus said that little children will inherit the kingdom of God because they are not yet accountable for their wrongdoings until they reach a certain age, which is between them and God.

This inherited sin nature does not excuse willful disobedience to God. The merciful God provided a way of reconciliation, a divine substitute for our sins, Jesus Christ. Scriptures state that the wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God) but the gift of God (salvation) is eternal life through Jesus Christ. So once an individual reaches the age of accountability it is their responsibility to repent of their sins and seek God's throne of grace for forgiveness.


Isaiah 48:8 means that God knew their fate before they were born. God knows our future actions and destiny before we come into this world.
 
Pharaoh can be used as an example here. The more God proved Himself the harder Pharaoh's heart became.
I can point to the predestination scripture as well. He KNOWS us -- like it or not HE KNOWS US FROM THE WOMB. He KNOWS how we will deal!!!!
Now, does this mean we write people off? Of course not ! We continuously try to turn their hearts to God.
Be like Moses and let God send you back again and again.
Adam and Eve had two sons. Environment the same, parents the same no mention of one being loved more than the other. No cause, no reason -- yet one was a murderer
 
As a result of the fall of man, we are all born totally depraved rendering the tendency to sin and subjection to God's wrath.


Where does the Bible specifically teach that the sin of Adam resulted in man acquiring a natural tendency to sin?

I see Eve yielding to the lust of the flesh in disobedience to God (Gen 3:6) and I see James teaching that every man is tempted when they are drawn away by the lust of the flesh.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.


I do not see it taught anywhere that the nature of man changed.

I see these changes clearly outlined in Scripture.

1. Man died spiritually and was cut off from God (Gen 2:17; Rom 5:12, Rom 7:9-11)
2. The ground was cursed (Gen 3:17-19)
3. The burden of work was increased (Gen 3:17-19)
4. The pain of childbirth would increase (Gen 3:16)
5. Adam and Eve expelled from the garden and denied access to the tree of life which resulted in physical death (Gen 3:22-23)

Where does the Bible teach that the nature of Adam was corrupted and then this corruption was transmitted to their posterity?





I used to believe in the false doctrine of original sin until I actually studied it out and found it comes from gnostic philosophy and it infiltrated the church through Augustine of Hippo.
 
You don't need to teach a child how to lie or steal before they start doing so. Eve didn't need to be taught how to eat the fruit either. She was chose to do it because she was drawn away by her natural passions and desires. Likewise a young child comes into the world subject to their natural passions and desires in complete ignorance of right and wrong. As their intellect develops and they begin to reason it then becomes possible for the child to suppress the commandment (conscience or direct command) and rebel. It has nothing to do with some sin nature passed down from parent to child.

However, as per Matthew 19:14, Jesus said that little children will inherit the kingdom of God because they are not yet accountable for their wrongdoings until they reach a certain age, which is between them and God. Little children are not in rebellion.

This inherited sin nature does not excuse willful disobedience to God. Yes it does because this inherited sin nature necessitates actual sin taking place. It redefines actual sin to be a symptom of an underlying disease which the sinner was born infected with. Thus repentance is fundamentally redefined because the sinner will not view their sin as a crime that was 100% their fault. There will be blame put on the way they were born and thus true godly sorrow is negated. The merciful God provided a way of reconciliation, a divine substitute for our sins, Jesus Christ. Scriptures state that the wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God) but the gift of God (salvation) is eternal life through Jesus Christ. So once an individual reaches the age of accountability it is their responsibility to repent of their sins and seek God's throne of grace for forgiveness.
The problem is that Original Sin, by twisting the nature of man, forces the redefining of repentance and faith. Sin is flagrant rebellion to God and needs to be recognised as such. If a sinner views their sinning as a sickness which they have through no fault of their own how can they be truly sorry? How can God hold a sinner responsible for something that their inner nature necessitated them to do?


Isaiah 48:8 means that God knew their fate before they were born. God knows our future actions and destiny before we come into this world.



I will quote again Article 6 from the Westminster Confession.

I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]
II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]
III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]
IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]
V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]
VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]



This teaching completely perverts the repentance message because the sinner becomes a victim instead of a criminal.

Look at what this doctrine has done to the churches. The churches are full of sin because people don't repent of their sin and forake it, they instead confess that they are sinners (cos they were born that way) and then they wait on God to clean them up.

The Bible teaches that a sinner is in rebellion to God and that the sinner must FORSAKE that rebellion and be broken before God.

Under Original Sin the Gospel message is twisted to a saved IN sins message. The infected sinner is just covered in his sickness and due to the flesh being infected with this sin disease the sin will never stop until they die and they get their glorified body, or so they are told.

If sin (unto death) is simply rebellion to God and is a crime then man has to come out of His rebellion BEFORE God will receive him. One cannot receive the teachings of God if they are still in rebellion to them and that is why James would write...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

You don't need advanced theological degrees to understand any of this, just a good heart sincerely seeking the truth.

If sin is a disease which necessitates actual sin then men are disabled and cannot lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness in order to receive Christ within.

See the difference between saved in sin and saved out of sin?

Original Sin is the bedrock for the development of the Penal Substitution view of the atonement which was formulated 400 years ago. Penal Substitution teaches that Jesus was a WRATH SUBSTITUTE for the sinner and took the sinners punishment in their stead. Thus all the sinners sins have already been punished which means they cannot be punished again. Thus the sinner can keep sinning and remain justified before God. I hope some who are reading this have the eyes to see what these damnable satanic teaching do to the Gospel.

Look at the church system today. It is full of sin. Professing Christian's who love the world and the things of the world yet think they are saved, that they are covered. The root is defiled by these dangerous gnostic teachings and thus the fruit is defiled.

Jesus said you will know them by their fruit and He was 100% correct.

Original Sin is Satan's masterpiece of deception. Through this one teaching he has been able to deceive untold millions of people into believing in a twisted Gospel message which is totally devoid of genuine repentance and faith which thus blocks any true reconciliation with God taking place.

I urge everyone to really look into these things, don't treat this casually. Really think about it.

Where does the Bible specifically teach that the sin of Adam resulted in man acquiring a natural tendency to sin?

Why didn't the Jews ever teach this?

Why didn't the early Church teach this?


 
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.(KJV)

Isa 48: 8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened : for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously , and wast called a transgressor from the womb.(KJV)
==============================================================
Matthew 19: 14 But Jesus said , Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.(KJV)

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased , and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

==============================================================

What are the first two verses talking about? Are these exaggerations? How can one be "born speaking lies?"
How can one be a "transgressor from the womb?"

The last two verses talk about how Jesus emphasized on the fact that the kingdom of heaven belonged to "such as these."

Two questions about the last two verses:
Is Jesus actually saying that children are without sin?

What does "such as these" mean? To ellaborate my question: Is Jesus talking about the 'children' per se or about 'those who are like little children', or both?

As usual, I would appreciate Bible verses (if possible) to support your answers.

things make more sense if you read it in context. Don't you remember how Jesus called them blind and deaf? perhaps its more than just physical birth that is being spoken of here. Do you know what the name Jacob means?

Jesus does not say the children are without sin. He says they are held blameless. there is a difference. I don't want to post a long response, but if you want to discuss it we can.

Isaiah 48
6 “You have heard;
See all this.
And will you not declare it?
I have made you hear new things from this time,
Even hidden things, and you did not know them.
7 They are created now and not from the beginning;
And before this day you have not heard them,
Lest you should say, ‘Of course I knew them.’
8 Surely you did not hear,
Surely you did not know;
Surely from long ago your ear was not opened.
For I knew that you would deal very treacherously,
And were called a transgressor from the womb.
 


As a result of the fall of man, we are all born totally depraved rendering the tendency to sin and subjection to God's wrath. Psalm 58:3 basically means that we are naturally sinful from birth; children go astray. They exhibit selfishness and once they start talking, lies will come out of their mouth. You don't need to teach a child how to lie or steal before they start doing so.

I have seen children as little as one year old being selfish, throwing tantrums and manipulating their parents. They resist attempts to be disciplined. I have observed that doing wrong comes naturally to children, but they must be trained to do what is right. These observations of mine support the fact that children do have a tendency to sin. However, is there any verse that tells us that they were born that way?


However, as per Matthew 19:14, Jesus said that little children will inherit the kingdom of God because they are not yet accountable for their wrongdoings until they reach a certain age, which is between them and God.
This tells me that there IS an age of accountability.


Isaiah 48:8 means that God knew their fate before they were born. God knows our future actions and destiny before we come into this world.
I agree that God knows whether a person will be good or evil because the Bible tells us that he chose Jesus before the foundation of the earth. Our human minds can never fathom what God is capable of doing.
 

These observations of mine support the fact that children do have a tendency to sin.

We have natural desires for hunger, to be warm, to be comfortable. These are just natural desires and nothing more.

A young child is subject to these desires and is ignorant of both righteousness and unrighteousness. Thus the young child will yield to these desires not knowing any better. It is similar to how an animal will yield to its instincts.

So I would say a baby is born into the world living according to the flesh because that is all they know. Yet they are completely innocent and undefiled.

It is only when the fleshly desires are yielded to with the understanding that yielding to them is wrong. The Jews taught it as abusing ones faculties.

Another good way to describe it is the sexual desire. Sexual desire in and of itself is not evil, it is simply sexual desire and God put it in mankind for a reason. When subjected to the bonds of marriage it is a good thing. Yet when it is yielded to in disregard for God's instruction simply to gratify the desire then it is sin.

When the instrument of the body is yielded to gratification at the expense of loving ones neighbour it is sin. Unlawful lust feeds unwanted pregnancies which feeds the abortion mill, it feeds unstable familiar and divorce, the sexual glue of marriage is cheapened etc.

Augustine taught that because sexual desire existed in mankind it was proof that all men are born with original sin. It is out of this view that celibacy of priests was demanded because they believed that they would be more pure if they abstained from this "evil" desire.

Young children have a tendency to sin most definitely because it is the path of least resistance and even when they know something is wrong the actual consequences of transgression are not understood.

If such is the case then why wouldn't anyone sin?

While sin is always rooted in the free exercise of the will it is nevertheless a very easy thing to do.
 
We have natural desires for hunger, to be warm, to be comfortable. These are just natural desires and nothing more.

A young child is subject to these desires and is ignorant of both righteousness and unrighteousness. Thus the young child will yield to these desires not knowing any better. It is similar to how an animal will yield to its instincts.

So I would say a baby is born into the world living according to the flesh because that is all they know. Yet they are completely innocent and undefiled.

It is only when the fleshly desires are yielded to with the understanding that yielding to them is wrong. The Jews taught it as abusing ones faculties.

Another good way to describe it is the sexual desire. Sexual desire in and of itself is not evil, it is simply sexual desire and God put it in mankind for a reason. When subjected to the bonds of marriage it is a good thing. Yet when it is yielded to in disregard for God's instruction simply to gratify the desire then it is sin.

When the instrument of the body is yielded to gratification at the expense of loving ones neighbour it is sin. Unlawful lust feeds unwanted pregnancies which feeds the abortion mill, it feeds unstable familiar and divorce, the sexual glue of marriage is cheapened etc.

Augustine taught that because sexual desire existed in mankind it was proof that all men are born with original sin. It is out of this view that celibacy of priests was demanded because they believed that they would be more pure if they abstained from this "evil" desire.

Young children have a tendency to sin most definitely because it is the path of least resistance and even when they know something is wrong the actual consequences of transgression are not understood.

If such is the case then why wouldn't anyone sin?

While sin is always rooted in the free exercise of the will it is nevertheless a very easy thing to do.

Thanks Skinski7, These are the exact answers that came to my mind no sooner than I posted my previous question. Your post edified my belief that children are indeed innocent. Your (quoted) post also answered why God does not hold little children accountable for their wrongdoings.
 
@Skinsky, Ariel, Mule, Starfield,
Thanks for your comments. I am in the process of reading them and will answer or ask for more clarification when I get the time.
I haven't yet viewed the videos posted above. I will do so soon.

So far I understand the following:
*A child does sin, but will not be held accountable by God.
* There is an age of accountability, which is different for every individual. It is between God and the individual.
*We were not born in sin. We chose to sin.

 
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.(KJV)
The expression is idiomatic describing the natural inclination of character in all who are wicked.

Isa 48: 8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened : for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously , and wast called a transgressor from the womb.(KJV)
This quote seems to be very straight forward in meaning.
==============================================================
Matthew 19: 14 But Jesus said , Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.(KJV)
Obviously there is a moment when a person matures from an innocent child to the beginning of personal accountability. Before accountability, being innocent children is akin to who the children of Yahweh, God are, children. We cannot enter the Kingdom unless we turn and become as children........again, this would be as children before having reached accountability.
Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased , and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
==============================================================

What are the first two verses talking about? Are these exaggerations? How can one be "born speaking lies?"
How can one be a "transgressor from the womb?"

The last two verses talk about how Jesus emphasized on the fact that the kingdom of heaven belonged to "such as these."

Two questions about the last two verses:
Is Jesus actually saying that children are without sin?

What does "such as these" mean? To ellaborate my question: Is Jesus talking about the 'children' per se or about 'those who are like little children', or both?



As usual, I would appreciate Bible verses (if possible) to support your answers.

Such as these? Children of Yahweh, God, of course. Anyone bothering to read this please try to imagine approaching our Maker, God Almighty, as an adult. It sounds ludicrous to me. Now, if you want something even more ludicrous, imagine, approaching our Heavenly Father as a scientist, as a philosopher, as a theologian, and so on. The more thought on, the more ridiculous anything other than a child becomes. I always want to be my Daddy's little one, nothing more, nothing less.
 
Pharaoh can be used as an example here. The more God proved Himself the harder Pharaoh's heart became.
I can point to the predestination scripture as well. He KNOWS us -- like it or not HE KNOWS US FROM THE WOMB. He KNOWS how we will deal!!!!
Now, does this mean we write people off? Of course not ! We continuously try to turn their hearts to God.
Be like Moses and let God send you back again and again.
Adam and Eve had two sons. Environment the same, parents the same no mention of one being loved more than the other. No cause, no reason -- yet one was a murderer

It's true that Pharaoh's heart grew harder, and the Bible tells us that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
However, Pharaoh (and not God) was responsible for Pharaoh's heart's condition. I guess God knew the outcome of Pharaoh's life and therefore hardened his heart further, if at all. This shows that God can use even a hardened person to for His glory. It would be absurd to think that God, who sent his only Son to die on a cruel cross would harden the heart of a righteous heaven-bound person and send him to hell.

About Cain; I believe that he chose to do evil, and was not born that way. Therefore Cain was responsible for his doom, and so was Pharaoh.

God is a patient Father, who waits for his prodigal sons and daughters to return. He throws up a celebration for those who repent. This is what Jesus taught us about our Father in heaven. God gives every person enough chances to turn around. Those who refuse, must come under His judgement, God being a righteous judge. I guess the hearts of Pharaoh and Cain were beyond repair.

Predestination does not make sense to me. It turns the entire Bible upside down.
 
They did chose and in the scriptures I offered you it is saying God knows " from the womb" what our spirit have chosen. We are who we are from the moment of conception. We are made in God's image, He is Spirit. God is self aware, He has thought and so does our spirit. Our spirit was self aware in the womb and also had thought. This flesh we are in is born it grows it ages and it passes away but our spirits are eternal. There is no age limit --
Hard to think of a new born baby as having an aware spirit who has though. Huh?
 
They did chose and in the scriptures I offered you it is saying God knows " from the womb" what our spirit have chosen. We are who we are from the moment of conception. We are made in God's image, He is Spirit. God is self aware, He has thought and so does our spirit. Our spirit was self aware in the womb and also had thought. This flesh we are in is born it grows it ages and it passes away but our spirits are eternal. There is no age limit --
Hard to think of a new born baby as having an aware spirit who has though. Huh?

Hi Mule,
I agree that the fetus has awareness, but are you saying that the fetus can make a choice? Or that our spirits can make choices without our flesh? Isn't choice a rational decision that involves the flesh (or brain, which is not well developed before birth or at birth)?

I know that we are getting into deeper things here. Got to log out now. Will return later. Thanks.
 
You are missing the most important choice. To chose God, to hear His voice and obey or to rebel.
The choice to know Him.
 
You are missing the most important choice. To chose God, to hear His voice and obey or to rebel.
The choice to know Him.

How can I be missing? Please explain what you mean.

I have consciously chosen to hear His voice and obey, and that too as an adult. What I did in the womb, I don't know. Do you?