Can someone lose their salvation?

[marianna]

i guess I should say why I believe once saved always saved and eternal assurance are false Doctrine. To me it is a sin of arrogance and presumption. We know only God is able to Judge and he has a day he has set apart for that judgment. To think because we have a firm secure knowledge of God and we have found some mystery that shows ourselves absolved from his eternal Judgment is really scary and extremely arrogant to me. He writes and erases, blots out and adds to the book of life doesn't he?

Christ as a man who was God. When he walked among us as a man did not eternally Judge nor did he grant eternal assurance that I know of.. i know He said remain in me or be thrown in the fire. I know he said those who persevere to the end will be saved. i know he said anyone who comes to me i will not turn away. i know he said No one can snatch us from his hand.. but, he told us we can turn away.

scriptures that assure me I must preserver in him till judgment are all over the bible..

As far as dead alive, dead, alive.. I believe we are dead in our trespasses and sin.. only life we have is that in Christ.. if we are not in him we have no life apart from him.. in rev the lambs book is opened and the DEAD are judged and given eternal life.. our life is given in the resurrection.. till that we live in Christ and we are dead in the flesh and to the flesh...

How can we serve 2 masters if we are dead in the flesh living to the flash and assuming we are in Christ?

We are the dead living in His life or we are just dead.

1 John 5
Overcoming the World

1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

5Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

This Is Written That You May Know

13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

18We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 20And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

21Little children, guard yourselves from idols.

 

[Abiding]

To me it is a sin of arrogance and presumption. from post #938

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This is the part i love...demonizing a person who holds a certian theology...be it right or wrong
its just a jab like:

Their perfectionists...thinking they can save themselves. This is no way to talk
nor can we know whats in anothers heart.

Maybe this thread isnt right for me...i dont at all mind disagreeing or being disagreed with
i think its part of fellowship and needed dialogue among the saints. But tagteams and
jabs that go that low....hmmm maybe theirs a more friendly thread.

 

[GreenNnice]

...............

Yes, His power cleans us, but we, too, MUST take the 'faith' steps to become clean, be it asking for forgiveness or repenting of something being a drag on our life.

Yes, squirrelly, He in us teaches us, leads, leads us, illuminates us, and, I believe the Lord speaks greatly through feeed, and, in many ways , and, in many threads, and, I too, believe in feed's heart and spirit becoming more speaking of Him in last month of posts . He is gentler on those who try to rapel His great said Truth of Him in him . Well done, feed !


For what it's worth, squirellfriend, I see a lot if wisdom in your words, but, often, it's, to me, Calvanism, of which doctrine I HATE, because it says that only 'an elect' or selected group go to heaven and that one can do nothing to save themselves, you're either picked or you're not for a heavenly destination.
Wrong. God teaches clear as day that whoever comes to Him is saved. Rom. 10:13 And, I will give you many more 'choice' Scripture, to fully fill that squirrel brain of yours


Also, squirrelfriend, how does reign, 'demonize' theology IF she is speaking Truth

 

[Red33]

i guess I should say why I believe once saved always saved and eternal assurance are false Doctrine. To me it is a sin of arrogance and presumption. We know only God is able to Judge and he has a day he has set apart for that judgment. To think because we have a firm secure knowledge of God and we have found some mystery that shows ourselves absolved from his eternal Judgment is really scary and extremely arrogant to me. He writes and erases, blots out and adds to the book of life doesn't he?

Christ as a man who was God. When he walked among us as a man did not eternally Judge nor did he grant eternal assurance that I know of.. i know He said remain in me or be thrown in the fire. I know he said those who persevere to the end will be saved. i know he said anyone who comes to me i will not turn away. i know he said No one can snatch us from his hand.. but, he told us we can turn away.

scriptures that assure me I must preserver in him till judgment are all over the bible..

As far as dead alive, dead, alive.. I believe we are dead in our trespasses and sin.. only life we have is that in Christ.. if we are not in him we have no life apart from him.. in rev the lambs book is opened and the DEAD are judged and given eternal life.. our life is given in the resurrection.. till that we live in Christ and we are dead in the flesh and to the flesh...

How can we serve 2 masters if we are dead in the flesh living to the flash and assuming we are in Christ?

We are the dead living in His life or we are just dead.

You have just said in your post, that what Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was sent to do by the Father counts for nothing and you have contradicted all the promises of God that are yea and amen in Christ. You have made the faith of the Son of God void. You have made the sacrifice of Christ and the blood of the cross of none effect and you have said that the Father and His justice was never met completely and totally through the death of His Son. You are also saying that Christ never died for sin and never put sin away and never destroyed the works of the devil. You are making the resurrection a farce and the eternal life that is in the Father and in the Son an untrustworthy gift from God with no life and no power. You are making a mockery of God's salvation and the grace of God that imparts that salvation through faith because of the work of the cross.

You are saying that the righteousness of the Son is not good enough for the believer to be accepted of the Father and the incorruptible seed of God's word is not good enough to keep the believer through the Spirit. You know nothing about the God of all grace, the Father of all mercies nor the finished work of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. You do not understand the righteousness of God that is imputed to the believer by faith and that God upholds that righteousness by the word of His power. You are living in unbelief concerning all these things and your heart is not established in grace and truth because you are missing the conviction of the Spirit in all these things that reveal the goodness of God and the assurance of God's great salvation that has removed every believer from condemnation and wrath and delivered them into the kingdom of God's dear Son.

 

[ReinItIn]

Paul tells about the grace that saves us through faith in 2 corinthin 8..

being given to the Macedonian church. a beautiful visual example of Gods grace that saves..

when they were impoverished a great concern came upon them, every one gave more then they could afford. they did not stop after this great act of generosity they all gave themselves as ministers of the gospel to do Gods will..

How on earth have we turned Gods grace, the working Power of God in us unto Salvation into a self justification of our sinful flesh?

 

[feedm3]

Some seem to hear only what the want to hear.

 

[Red33]

Some seem to hear only what the want to hear.

Some have never heard what the Spirit says concerning the salvation of the Son and the promised assurance that believers have through the eternal life provided by the Son through faith. Some are foolish in their unbelief because they have never gotten to know the God of all grace through the Son and remain in the pride of a blind and darkened heart with a dead spirit.

 

[feedm3]

To me it is a sin of arrogance and presumption. from post #938

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
This is the part i love...demonizing a person who holds a certian theology...be it right or wrong
its just a jab like:

Their perfectionists...thinking they can save themselves. This is no way to talk
nor can we know whats in anothers heart.

Maybe this thread isnt right for me...i dont at all mind disagreeing or being disagreed with
i think its part of fellowship and needed dialogue among the saints. But tagteams and
jabs that go that low....hmmm maybe theirs a more friendly thread.

I agree with you here. It seems both sides (including me) have been speaking more of the others sides motives for why they believe what they do. No one knows anothers motive, only God.

One side: "your fighting so you can stay in sin"

The Other: "your trying to earn your salvation"

Neither side: "oh I see where your coming from, but his is why I dont agree".


I am trying to stop judging the motives of why people believe the way they do, and just discuss the issue we dont agree on.

Anyway, I hope you'll stick around.

 

[feedm3]

Some have never heard what the Spirit says concerning the salvation of the Son and the promised assurance that believers have through the eternal life provided by the Son through faith. Some are foolish in their unbelief because they have never gotten to know the God of all grace through the Son and remain in the pride of a blind and darkened heart with a dead spirit.

and some hear only what they want to hear.

 

[feedm3]

Lol Red, with your avatar picture there while im reading your posts, I feel like im being scolded. Almost cried twice.

 

[Red33]

and some hear only what they want to hear.

Some hear what the Spirit says and have grace and truth in their heart and live by faith in the promises of God that God will never be unfaithful to. Are you hearing only that what you want to hear or are you careful what you hear and how you hear? Our hearing must always be a hearing of faith and not one of unbelief and doubt. We must believe to be saved and to be cleaned from sin. We hear and believe by faith in the righteousness of God that comes through the work of the Son. If we hear and we waiver in unbelief or doubt, let not that man think that he will receive anything from the Lord. Are you hearing what you want to hear or are you hearing by faith and trusting in the promises of God through the Spirit?

 

[Abiding]

Yes, His power cleans us, but we, too, MUST take the 'faith' steps to become clean, be it asking for forgiveness or repenting of something being a drag on our life.

Yes, squirrelly, He in us teaches us, leads, leads us, illuminates us, and, I believe the Lord speaks greatly through feeed, and, in many ways , and, in many threads, and, I too, believe in feed's heart and spirit becoming more speaking of Him in last month of posts . He is gentler on those who try to rapel His great said Truth of Him in him . Well done, feed ! Come on grennie.. i love Feed. So stop it will you? Im gona engage with anyone here. Its a forum. Whatever i said to your brother that has you in a twist. I dont remember. Surely i have no issue, nor disrespect.So what must i do to cure this thing you have?
Should i fly him and his woman to 3 days in the southseas? Would that fix stuff for ya greenie?


For what it's worth, squirellfriend, I see a lot if wisdom in your words, but, often, it's, to me, Calvanism, of which doctrine I HATE, because it says that only 'an elect' or selected group go to heaven and that one can do nothing to save themselves, you're either picked or you're not for a heavenly destination.
Wrong. God teaches clear as day that whoever comes to Him is saved. Rom. 10:13 And, I will give you many more 'choice' Scripture, to fully fill that squirrel brain of yours

Nope im not a calvinist..but that doesnt mean you cant keep picking on me.


Also, squirrelfriend, how does reign, 'demonize' theology IF she is speaking Truth

Simple...if a person holds to an incorrect doctrine. It doesnt have to be that they are arrogant
and prideful. They could just have done their best and were just plain wrong. Sometimes a cigar
is just a cigar.

Also im not sure what you mean by speaking truth. Is it a all or none thing to you?
No, of coarse not.

Example... for me to read scripture like :

1 Peter 1:3-5 for instance
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and WILL NOT fade away away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

And lets say i declare to people Gods eternal love and faithfulness to keep us and
that nothing can seperate us from Him.

Would you look at that and say im arrogant and prideful? Or maybe grateful and trusting?

And possibly honoring His Holy name.

 

[GreenNnice]

You have just said in your post, that what Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was sent to do by the Father counts for nothing and you have contradicted all the promises of God that are yea and amen in Christ. You have made the faith of the Son of God void. You have made the sacrifice of Christ and the blood of the cross of none effect and you have said that the Father and His justice was never met completely and totally through the death of His Son. You are also saying that Christ never died for sin and never put sin away and never destroyed the works of the devil. You are making the resurrection a farce and the eternal life that is in the Father and in the Son an untrustworthy gift from God with no life and no power. You are making a mockery of God's salvation and the grace of God that imparts that salvation through faith because of the work of the cross.

You are saying that the righteousness of the Son is not good enough for the believer to be accepted of the Father and the incorruptible seed of God's word is not good enough to keep the believer through the Spirit. You know nothing about the God of all grace, the Father of all mercies nor the finished work of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. You do not understand the righteousness of God that is imputed to the believer by faith and that God upholds that righteousness by the word of His power. You are living in unbelief concerning all these things and your heart is not established in grace and truth because you are missing the conviction of the Spirit in all these things that reveal the goodness of God and the assurance of God's great salvation that has removed every believer from condemnation and wrath and delivered them into the kingdom of God's dear Son.

Righteousness=right standing with God.

In order to keep 'standing' one needs to nor fall.

Can one fall? You decide.

Adam and Eve fell. 'Paradise' moved from a 'life' location to a death location..

Man messed up so badly that God wiped man off the earth, men, women, children , THOUSANDS AND MILLIONS OF THEM by a flood .

THEN , after that a lot else happened...

Jesús came, SAVED souls from death, who go to 'Paradise' when they die. Matthew-.Acts 1

Timothy - Paula tells his chief study that 'some will leave the faith.'

What does this mean? They will GIVE IN to overcoming because false teachers came and told them that they could sin willfully and STILL go to heaven. God will stay faithful, don't worry , you can keep doing your sin.

Oh, it ALL sounds so goood , doesn't it Christ peeps? Wheee!

It's NOT. Your sins will change your heart, your ideas of good will become bad and you will end up LEAVING THE HOLY SPIRIT. Can that possibly be a good thing? No! Scripture is clear as day, NO Spirit in you, NO ETERNAL LIFE

SO, how can one in their right understanding of God become apostate and leave Him?

Flesh, Christ peeps, we have flesh, we have crucified our flesh, true, but our flesh is still in us.

Galations 2:20 tells us - For I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives within me.'

This is true, His Spirit is Who lives in you, but our flesh is still there. We do not get rid of its corruption until we die. Then it becomes incorruptible , unites with our spirit, once Christ comes again, until then those who chose Him are with others who've died, in spirit form.

 

[feedm3]

Some hear what the Spirit says and have grace and truth in their heart and live by faith in the promises of God that God will never be unfaithful to. Are you hearing only that what you want to hear or are you careful what you hear and how you hear? Our hearing must always be a hearing of faith and not one of unbelief and doubt. We must believe to be saved and to be cleaned from sin. We hear and believe by faith in the righteousness of God that comes through the work of the Son. If we hear and we waiver in unbelief or doubt, let not that man think that he will receive anything from the Lord. Are you hearing what you want to hear or are you hearing by faith and trusting in the promises of God through the Spirit?

Trust in his promises, as well as his warnings. His warnings are promises as well.

 

[ReinItIn]

I thought God judged our hearts and found us lacking so he took them out and gives us a new one after he has washed us and made us clean.

the way I understand it is God was in Christ personally reconciling the world to himself. Not counting our sins against us and he has commissioned us with the message of reconciliation. And we are to appeal to people to make peace with God. this very day no matter what day it is is the day for salvation.

Paul tells us there is no harmony between God and the devil. darkness and light do not share life. He tells us to come out from among the world and touch no unclean thing and God will receive us and will be our Father and we will be is sons and daughters..

then paul says "with these promises ringing in our ears, dear friends let us keep clear of anything that smirches body or soul. Let us prove our reverence for God by consecrating ourselves to him completely..

This to me is not someone telling us we already have the promise of eternal life when we are still living in the flesh partaking in sin and grace being a cover for rebellion, pride, hate, forgiveness or lawlessness.

 

[GreenNnice]

Simple...if a person holds to an incorrect doctrine. It doesnt have to be that they are arrogant
and prideful. They could just have done their best and were just plain wrong. Sometimes a cigar
is just a cigar.

Also im not sure what you mean by speaking truth. Is it a all or none thing to you?
No, of coarse not.

Example... for me to read scripture like :

1 Peter 1:3-5 for instance
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and WILL NOT fade away away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

And lets say i declare to people Gods eternal love and faithfulness to keep us and
that nothing can seperate us from Him.

Would you look at that and say im arrogant and prideful? Or maybe grateful and trusting?

And possibly honoring His Holy name.

God is faithful when we are faithless. Great. Let's just watch God walk out the door then....

'Hey, God, what are you doing, your supposed to be faithful even when I'm not. Why you going against Your Word.'

Jesus - 'Through your faith, in my work, child, and, my words to help you to overcome , I will have grace to you given. I am faithful, always, never failing is my Love for those keeping under My hand. You have however LEFT the faith. And, of that which, I can have all the faith in the world, it will kill you to leave, but I can lead you back, if like my sheep that are lost, I will go after them but if they choose not to move then my faith will not make them well of faith .'

 

[Abiding]

Righteousness=right standing with God.

In order to keep 'standing' one needs to nor fall.

Can one fall? You decide.

Adam and Eve fell. 'Paradise' moved from a 'life' location to a death location..

Man messed up so badly that God wiped man off the earth, men, women, children , THOUSANDS AND MILLIONS OF THEM by a flood .

THEN , after that a lot else happened...

Jesús came, SAVED souls from death, who go to 'Paradise' when they die. Matthew-.Acts 1

Timothy - Paula tells his chief study that 'some will leave the faith.'Reread this
They turn their ears from the faith. Big difference. Notice
what Paul is getting at. Paul is talking to an evangelist and encouraging him to evangelize to the unsaved..in context

What does this mean? They will GIVE IN to overcoming because false teachers came and told them that they could sin willfully and STILL go to heaven. God will stay faithful, don't worry , you can keep doing your sin.
This is talking about the unregenerate not believers, and it doesnt say the problem is the false teachers, because it say they are the ones who heap up to themselves these teachers.
Oh, it ALL sounds so goood , doesn't it Christ peeps? Wheee!

It's NOT. Your sins will change your heart, your ideas of good will become bad and you will end up LEAVING THE HOLY SPIRIT. Can that possibly be a good thing? No! Scripture is clear as day, NO Spirit in you, NO ETERNAL LIFE

SO, how can one in their right understanding of God become apostate and leave Him?

Flesh, Christ peeps, we have flesh, we have crucified our flesh, true, but our flesh is still in us.

Galations 2:20 tells us - For I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives within me.'

This is true, His Spirit is Who lives in you, but our flesh is still there. We do not get rid of its corruption until we die. Then it becomes incorruptible , unites with our spirit, once Christ comes again, until then those who chose Him are with others who've died, in spirit form.

...................

 

[Abiding]

I thought God judged our hearts and found us lacking so he took them out and gives us a new one after he has washed us and made us clean.

the way I understand it is God was in Christ personally reconciling the world to himself. Not counting our sins against us and he has commissioned us with the message of reconciliation. And we are to appeal to people to make peace with God. this very day no matter what day it is is the day for salvation.

Paul tells us there is no harmony between God and the devil. darkness and light do not share life. He tells us to come out from among the world and touch no unclean thing and God will receive us and will be our Father and we will be is sons and daughters..

then paul says "with these promises ringing in our ears, dear friends let us keep clear of anything that smirches body or soul. Let us prove our reverence for God by consecrating ourselves to him completely..

This to me is not someone telling us we already have the promise of eternal life when we are still living in the flesh partaking in sin and grace being a cover for rebellion, pride, hate, forgiveness or lawlessness.

Who says it did?

 

[Abiding]

God is faithful when we are faithless. Great. Let's just watch God walk out the door then....

'Hey, God, what are you doing, your supposed to be faithful even when I'm not. Why you going against Your Word.'

Jesus - 'Through your faith, in my work, child, and, my words to help you to overcome , I will have grace to you given. I am faithful, always, never failing is my Love for those keeping under My hand. You have however LEFT the faith. And, of that which, I can have all the faith in the world, it will kill you to leave, but I can lead you back, if like my sheep that are lost, I will go after them but if they choose not to move then my faith will not make them well of faith .'

Green its time to pull out of this again i spose.. I just dont think theres any profit in continuing
when if someone says God is faithful...then the other replies....you just want to ok sin...tacky.

Why people cant see that a Faith in God is a Faith in God and not an excuse to sin and
be a fulltime lawbreaker. If thats all you get from it. Then your just plain wrong and cant
hear good.

 

[OFM]

See 1st John 5:9-13 and Just Live Within That Within that Is Our Spiritian Christian SALVATION we do not have hope hope guess pray or wonder amen allways amen-eth...............