Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?

[eternally-gratefull]

But you proceed to to contradict yourself entirely right here:
I have read the whole thing.

do you want to qualify your statement at all?

and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered , for to devour her child as soon as it was born . 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne - Revelation 12

You said unequivocally nothing beyond 5 is history to John.
Just the part in 12 we are discussing proves you wrong.
I just wonder how you get around your assertions when you're proven wrong? You could just qualify the dogmatism and concede that Revelation covers the entire time of the Messiah several times and is NOT all future.

12 proves that, right?

I said no single event. That is a picture in one place of past present and future. not an even which happened in the past. a huge difference. But I can see how you can be confused there and appologize.

Yes I know.
Has Jesus ascended yet?

uh, your joking right??

Right.
Jesus ascended to the Right Hand of God, The Spirit came and brought all things to remembrance He had taught the disciples, including this teaching, which involved PROTECTION:

20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21“Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23“Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled - Luke 21

Who are the "this people" Jesus was describing?
Have you yet considered how it is the Christian disciples escaped the wrath that fell on Jerusalem?

are you going to stick to the subject. the christian disciples would have been the offspring of the woman. God said he will protect the woman as a whole. so the beast goes after those who keep the commands of God and persecutes them severely. Which would be the church, of which those disciples belonged to.

Not to mention. when does he protect her? During the great tribulation. I just proved that did not happen in 70 AD.

Because if that error is fixed, the rest falls into place.

what error? Your discussing who is saved and who is not. I am discussing who the woman, her offspring and the harlot is.

How can you make a statement then quote the passages that prove you wrong?
I don't understand this.

proved me wrong?

That passage shows the woman is protected, and because she is, it pisses off the beast, and he goes after her offspring who is not protected? Which is those who keep the commandments. Your saying the woman and the one who keep his commands are one and the same, this passage says they are not. It does not prove me wrong,

In other places you have conceded that all Israel does not mean all, and that those who were in unbelief were not saved, that they did not enter in.

No. I said ALL Isreal does not include anyone up until the time of the prophesy. Saved or not. All isreal is ALL those who are alive at that time, saved or not.

So why do you now try to say God is obliged to save the whole house of Israel, when the Bible clearly says REMNANT. Always remnant.

The Bible says God will keep a remnant, until the end of the age, when ALL ISREAL will be saved. your ignoring who all isreal is.

The above is about the Church - it was primarily originally OT Hebrew, but then gentiles were grafted in.
Is God said anywhere to be under obligation to those who hate Him and rejected Jesus? No. He says just the opposite.

No the above is about a time when a world leader will declare war on the woman to destroy her, But the woman is protected by God. so this angers the world leader and he goes after her offspring, the church.

Again, have you read this with an open heart at any time in your life??

Why did you add this part? "who unlike the woman"?
It is talking about the FAITHFUL woman, not the unfaithful harlot.
The Old Testament Church which entered into the New Covenasnt and was still the OT faithful Church and the gentiles were grafted in.

The woman gave birth to Christ,. Who is the woman? The church??

the offspring of the woman are those who keep the commandments of God.

Your trying to make the offspring the woman itself. this passage clearly teaches they are not the same!

The unfaithful woman is the harlot, Apostate Israel.
Jesus cursed them. You agree, don't you?

Jesus cursed Isreal because they played the harlot, yes. But Isreal is not THE HARLOT. The Harlot is who Isreal commited adultry with!
She is the woman who gave birth to the male child and is protected by God. How can God protect the harlot, and at the same time destroy her?? you see your massive contraditction here?

Why would you dismiss knowledge of what happened in 70AD, and where all of Israel was in the known world when Jesus walked the earth? Why would you call that rabbit trails? Have you really thought this through?

why would I want to take something which is aimed at the world leaders, and make it instead aimed at a bunch of people who have no authority and no place in world affairs? In 70 AD a nation who were slaves was destroyed. In rev the world leaders who control power will be destroyed. can't you see the difference?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Galatians 4
Bond and Free

21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

27For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”

28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

lol..

Hagar did not give birth to Christ
The Church did not give birth to Christ
Isreal gave birth to christ.


and next

hagar was not the offspring of the woman
The offspring of the woman are those who obay the commands of God.

conclusion

Isreal gave birth to the man child. She (believing or unbelieving) are protected by God during this time of great tribulation.

Those who obay the commands of God are the offspiring of the woman, thus they are the offspring of Israel, and are those who are called spiritual isreal, because they are isreal by birth into gods family

the woman and the church are not the same

all the offspring is whoever is saved by the grace of God. there is nothing which tells us the woman is saved or following god, it just says they are protected. the fact the offspring does obey God and the woman does not should tell us quite a bit.


why you can't see this? I do not know

 

[marianna]

Well, I didn't apologize because I saw an error in what I wrote, but due to my tone.
But you are still hostile and condescending, and still in error.
So I guess I will leave of the discussion with you personally for now.

I still apologize for my tone.
Not the content.

I hoped you would be gracious to say you forgave it.
It matters not.

 

[marianna]

lol..

Hagar did not give birth to Christ
The Church did not give birth to Christ
Isreal gave birth to christ.


and next

hagar was not the offspring of the woman
The offspring of the woman are those who obay the commands of God.

conclusion

Isreal gave birth to the man child. She (believing or unbelieving) are protected by God during this time of great tribulation.

Those who obay the commands of God are the offspiring of the woman, thus they are the offspring of Israel, and are those who are called spiritual isreal, because they are isreal by birth into gods family

the woman and the church are not the same

all the offspring is whoever is saved by the grace of God. there is nothing which tells us the woman is saved or following god, it just says they are protected. the fact the offspring does obey God and the woman does not should tell us quite a bit.


why you can't see this? I do not know

Hagar represents the harlot, apostate israelites who refused to enter into the New Covenant which makes us free.
She was not delivered.
The faithful church (israelites jews and gentiles) was delivered.


But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law - Galatians 4:4

Read this again. It makes it absolutely clear that todays Israelis (not to mention the Israelites in Pauls day are NOT Gods people. They will not inherit. They are not of the Promise, they like Ishmael are of the flesh and can not please God.

They are in slavery, as was Jerusalem.

Galatians 4
Bond and Free

21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

27For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”

28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.



This is saying that the Hebrews who rejected Jesus are cast off and will not inherit.
We are not under The Law, we are not of old Jerusalem.
We are not flesh circumcision.

This isn`t talking of literal Hagar. It is comparing the Harlot Jerusalem with the Bondwoman Hagar.


I know I said I would leave off discussion with you as you are hostile toward me.
But it is an important conversation so I will find a way to not address you directly so as not to offend.

 

[marianna]

Those who obay the commands of God are the offspiring of the woman, thus they are the offspring of Israel, and are those who are called spiritual isreal, because they are isreal by birth into gods family

Unbelieving Israel is spiritual Israel you say.

But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. - Romans 2:29

Do you think Israelis and unbelieving Jews today obey the Commandments of God. No, they do not. They belong to a completely foreign religion (Jesus condemned it). Any comparative Religion class confirms this.

In any case:

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. - Deuteronomy 6:5

Do unbelievers know Who God even is. Do they have the Father without the Son. Is there any provision for that.

23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. - 1 John 3

 

[marianna]

I said no single event. That is a picture in one place of past present and future. not an even which happened in the past. a huge difference. But I can see how you can be confused there and appologize.

See, this is hostility and being smug.

I apologized for that kind of thing from myself.
Not for posting the correct interpetation of the Book.

I said no single event. That is a picture in one place of past present and future. not an even which happened in the past. a huge difference.

But...the birth of Jesus and the Ascension were PAST to John when he wrote it. You said there was NOTHING but future events after 5.

Where did you make that qualification.
I didnt see it here:

The first two chapters are past. Speaks of Christ.
The second two chapters are present, the seven local churches at that time.
From that point forward, it is future. There is nothing in chapters 5 to the end which would support anything which happened before John wrote these letters. In fact, all the things spoken of in chapter 6 on are future events

So I dont know why you cant ever seem to admit you made a mistake.

I said no single event. That is a picture in one place of past present and future. not an even which happened in the past. a huge difference.

And Revelation 12 is not an isolated example of the book returning over and over to cover what was historical to John.

I can post more of them later.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, I didn't apologize because I saw an error in what I wrote, but due to my tone.
But you are still hostile and condescending, and still in error.
So I guess I will leave of the discussion with you personally for now.

well thanks for your opinion. Just telling me I am in error is hostile and unladylike. You have not proven your point. and your refusal to see the facts is amazing

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hagar represents the harlot, apostate israelites who refused to enter into the New Covenant which makes us free.
She was not delivered.
The faithful church (israelites jews and gentiles) was delivered.


But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law - Galatians 4:4

Read this again. It makes it absolutely clear that todays Israelis (not to mention the Israelites in Pauls day are NOT Gods people. They will not inherit. They are not of the Promise, they like Ishmael are of the flesh and can not please God.

They are in slavery, as was Jerusalem.

Galatians 4
Bond and Free

21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

27For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”

28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Do you think this proves your point? You did not even answer my question. I did not ask what hagar represented. i tried to show you that she is not the woman.

This is saying that the Hebrews who rejected Jesus are cast off and will not inherit.

and I agree 100 %, are you going to tell me something I do not know and I have over and over agreed with? You state my tone is mean, it is not mean, it is frustrated because you keep telling me stuff I agree with and then tell me I am wrong.

We are not under The Law, we are not of old Jerusalem.
We are not flesh circumcision.

I never said we were. And you know another amazing fact? No one has ever been saved byu the law not in the OT and not in the NT. so why do you keep bringing it up? This has NOTHING to do with who the woman is..

This isn`t talking of literal Hagar. It is comparing the Harlot Jerusalem with the Bondwoman Hagar.

No, what it said that the son of the bondwoman was born of the flesh. the one by the free woman was born by the promise.

Abraham was promised to have a child, through this child would come the promises. Abraham tried to do it on his own, because he gave up on God and committed adultery with his wife. your imposing what it means like it is some allegory was wrong.

The bondwoman represents all of us and our physical birth, the free woman represents all who are born of the promise. Born in God. it has nothign to do with jew vs gentile. and nothign to do with who the woman of revelations is.

I know I said I would leave off discussion with you as you are hostile toward me.
But it is an important conversation so I will find a way to not address you directly so as not to offend.

are you then going to discuss the difference between the woman who gave birth to Christ, and her offspring who obays the commands of God is then? or keep talking about the same things which do not support your point.

I told you who I think they are, you say I am wrong by saying the same things. But you have not proven anything.

The woman is NOT the ones who obay the commands of God. and IS the woman who is protected by God/. so why are they different, and why is one protected and one not??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Unbelieving Israel is spiritual Israel you say.

I have never said this. why do you keep making accusations against me which is not true??

But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. - Romans 2:29

This is spiritual isreal, the OFFSPRING OF THE WOMAN WHO GAVE BIRTH TO THE MAN. Which separates her from NATURAL ISRAEL. does it not??

Do you think Israelis and unbelieving Jews today obey the Commandments of God. No, they do not. They belong to a completely foreign religion (Jesus condemned it). Any comparative Religion class confirms this.

No they don't. But did not these unbelieving jews today come from the natural heritage of the people who gave birth to Christ, thus as Jews, born of Abraham Issac and jacob, would they not be the very woman who gave birth to Christ, and thus protected? We are not talking about them being saved. We are talking about them being protected and who they are. You want to make it a salvation issue, it is NOT.

In any case:

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. - Deuteronomy 6:5

Do unbelievers know Who God even is. Do they have the Father without the Son. Is there any provision for that.

23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. - 1 John 3

And this tells me who the woman and her offspring is??

I feel like I am going in circles.

the woman is not the ones who obay the commands, her offspiring is.

 

[iamsoandso]

,,,,,very interesting to see,,an open discussion on rev.1;19,,,,past present and future,,,it is as if you have a key,,and put it into a lock and turn it and unlock Revelations,,,here are some things future,some are not,,,,,Zechariah 5;11,,,Shinar/Babylon,,,,one woman goes in two come out,,the basket is covered by what it is worth(lead),,,,and she(and the other) go to where she has a base(headquarters),trade,commerce,market,scale,lead,worth,,,they pick up the 'basket",,,,and take it to Babylon,,,,,,,go forward to after her destruction,,,rev.18;23,,,,,"light of the candle","voice of the bridegroom(Christ),nor the bride(church),,,is herd no more in thee,,,go back to the beginning of the revelation,,look at the warnings to the churches( seven churches),,"lest i remove thy candlestick",,"remove thy candle",,,,is a church(of the seven),,,or,,, temple in in ad70(removed),,,,both were present weather you see it pre or post,,that is,five are fallen,"one is",,,,ect.,,,as you have debated,,,move forward to this,,,Matthew 8;29,,,"before our time",,,,,2peter 2;4,,,"unto judgment",,,Jude verse 6,,,"unto the judgment of the great day",,,,,remember that "if judgment began at the temple of god",,,,,,,,'began",,,ask yourselves these questions,,,"why is the judgment after the millennial temple in the Revelations?",,,"how did the demons in matt.8;29 know it was before the day?",,,,you see you have this thing to solve,,and i know it is written "the angels in heven nor the son of man knoweth",,but the father,,yet in the scripture you find,,matt.8;29,both Christ agree(he cast them),and the demons understood(before our time),,,,2peter2;4(unto judgment),,,and jude 6(judgment of the great day),,,,you know that Babylon is destroyed,before that day,,you know that the beastand the false prophet are in the pit(already) rev.19;20,,,when the devil is cast in rev.20;10,,,and that gog magog was not in it during the mill. but after,,,rev.20 6-9,,,,,the great day of judgment,,,,,is it before the millennium or after,,,,,,then you will see the whore,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[iamsoandso]

ok it is not my turn on the computer now,,,,i will be back when i get my 30 minutes tomorrow,,,,,,,,,

 

[nathan3]

ok forgive me, I was thinking fast. People use the two witnesses killed in Jerusalem alot for proof. Never heard rev 13 used for this.

rev 13 speaks of the final beast empire of daniels prophesies. Daniel was told the 4th beast would get power, then suffer a wound, then be restored greater than it was before. This is what rev 13 is talking about.

The roman empire was wounded when it fell. It will be restored far greater than it was before. Since it is the 4th empire, which is rome. It is logical to understand, this man given power by God to rule the world will be in his capital city. The second beast in ch 13, again does not have any indication he will be in jerusalem and that will be his capitol city.

Let the pope go and Rome forget it... Focus on the Dragon in that Chapter and Christ teachings in Mark 13, and Puals out lines in 2nd Thess2. thats all i can say on it here.

 

[marianna]

This is spiritual isreal, the OFFSPRING OF THE WOMAN WHO GAVE BIRTH TO THE MAN.

Which separates her from NATURAL ISRAEL. does it not??

But did not these unbelieving jews today come from the natural heritage of the people who gave birth to Christ, thus as Jews, born of Abraham Issac and jacob, would they not be the very woman who gave birth to Christ, and thus protected?

We are not talking about them being saved.

We are talking about them being protected and who they are. You want to make it a salvation issue, it is NOT.

This is amazing.

Were any of the "people who gave birth to Christ, thus as Jews, born of Abraham Issac and jacob, would they not be the very woman who gave birth to Christ" Spiritual Israel?

What did Paul a Hebrew of Hebrews say about that? He was of the natural heritage.

for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh - Philippians 3:3

We are not talking about them being saved.
We are talking about them being protected and who they are. You want to make it a salvation issue, it is NOT.

Doesn't the book say He protects them to save them (or because they are saved)? Why would God protect lost rebels?
Can you explain it from Scripture please?

 

[iamsoandso]

,,,,,very interesting to see,,an open discussion on rev.1;19,,,,past present and future,,,it is as if you have a key,,and put it into a lock and turn it and unlock Revelations,,,here are some things future,some are not,,,,,Zechariah 5;11,,,Shinar/Babylon,,,,one woman goes in two come out,,the basket is covered by what it is worth(lead),,,,and she(and the other) go to where she has a base(headquarters),trade,commerce,market,scale,lead,worth,,,they pick up the 'basket",,,,and take it to Babylon,,,,,,,go forward to after her destruction,,,rev.18;23,,,,,"light of the candle","voice of the bridegroom(Christ),nor the bride(church),,,is herd no more in thee,,,go back to the beginning of the revelation,,look at the warnings to the churches( seven churches),,"lest i remove thy candlestick",,"remove thy candle",,,,is a church(of the seven),,,or,,, temple in in ad70(removed),,,,both were present weather you see it pre or post,,that is,five are fallen,"one is",,,,ect.,,,as you have debated,,,move forward to this,,,Matthew 8;29,,,"before our time",,,,,2peter 2;4,,,"unto judgment",,,Jude verse 6,,,"unto the judgment of the great day",,,,,remember that "if judgment began at the temple of god",,,,,,,,'began",,,ask yourselves these questions,,,"why is the judgment after the millennial temple in the Revelations?",,,"how did the demons in matt.8;29 know it was before the day?",,,,you see you have this thing to solve,,and i know it is written "the angels in heven nor the son of man knoweth",,but the father,,yet in the scripture you find,,matt.8;29,both Christ agree(he cast them),and the demons understood(before our time),,,,2peter2;4(unto judgment),,,and jude 6(judgment of the great day),,,,you know that Babylon is destroyed,before that day,,you know that the beast and the false prophet are in the pit(already) rev.19;20,,,when the devil is cast in rev.20;10,,,and that gog magog was not in it during the mill. but after,,,rev.20 6-9,,,,,the great day of judgment,,,,,is it before the millennium or after,,,,,,then you will see the whore,,,,,,,,,,,

,,,,,rev.12;3,"wonder in heaven",,so the red dragon is from heaven,cast a third part of the stars of heaven into the "earth",,,rev.12; 7-9,,,the war in heaven,notice first the dragon cast a third part of the stars of heaven into the earth(while he was still in heaven),,then there was a war (in heaven),,,and then the red dragon and his angels were cast into the earth,(notice now three things are now in the earth,from heaven),,the stars,one third,,the red dragon,and his angels),,,then rev.12;13,,"he was cast into the earth",(after the war in heaven),,,rev,17;3,(scarlet colored beast),,now back to rev.13,,,,,first beast rises from (sea),,people nations tongues,,,the other rises from the (earth),where the red dragon from heaven is cast,,,,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let the pope go and Rome forget it... Focus on the Dragon in that Chapter and Christ teachings in Mark 13, and Puals out lines in 2nd Thess2. thats all i can say on it here.

Let the pope and Rome Go? It is they who will be destroyed in the final battle. Rome will be the empire the dragon rules, The pope will be destroyed by rome.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is amazing.

Were any of the "people who gave birth to Christ, thus as Jews, born of Abraham Issac and jacob, would they not be the very woman who gave birth to Christ" Spiritual Israel?

No they would not. Because Spiritual Isreal is the offspring of Christ, who is the offspring of the woman. Are you saying YOU gave birth to Christ? How can that be? If Christ did not come, there would be no spiritual Isreal, we would all be dead to Christ and thus God.

What did Paul a Hebrew of Hebrews say about that? He was of the natural heritage.

for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh - Philippians 3:3

Paul is telling us what Christ did with his death. Isreal was given the sign, physical circumcision. This represented the true circucmcision (cleansing) done by God. But again, If Christ did not die. there would be no spiritual Isreal. We are the offspring of the woman. The woman is natural Isreal.

Doesn't the book say He protects them to save them (or because they are saved)? Why would God protect lost rebels?
Can you explain it from Scripture please?

Have you ever studied revelation?

1. The fifth seal. Many who were killed by the world leader because of their testimony of Christ
2. They are told God will not avenge their deaths until all who are numbered follow after them. Meaning many more will die?
3. A number to great to count are in heaven because they were slain, from every nation tribe and tongue

Christians during that time will be killed by the thousands, Not only will it be a great tribulation such as has never been seen before or after. Followers of God will be killed in greater number than has ever been seen.

So tell me. How does God protect them so the beast can not hurt them if so many are killed by the beast and his armies? If, as you claim, they are the woman?

 

[marianna]

No they would not. Because Spiritual Isreal is the offspring of Christ, who is the offspring of the woman. Are you saying YOU gave birth to Christ? How can that be? If Christ did not come, there would be no spiritual Isreal, we would all be dead to Christ and thus God.

Was anyone saved before the First Advent?

 

[marianna]

According to you the Vatican will persecute Christians and unbelieving Jews?

And God is obligated under which agreement or Covenant to save the unfaithful?

What saves? Circumcision?
What about Muslims then?

Please can you just point it out simply?

Was Jesus crucified in Rome, or Jerusalem?
Did Rome slay Israel's prophets?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Was anyone saved before the First Advent?

Why would you ask a question like this? You know what it makes you look like?

They were saved the same way we are. By faith in the future one who would take away our sins.

Again, I ask you. did you give birth to Christ, or did Christ give birth to you? If he gave birth to you. Then you are not the woman.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

According to you the Vatican will persecute Christians and unbelieving Jews?

1. The vatican has been doing this since it was formed. have you not studied history?
2. Where did this come from, I did not even say this, I said that rome would destroy the vatican. so whats your point?

And God is obligated under which agreement or Covenant to save the unfaithful?

He never has he never will. If yourt going to keep asking rediculous questions like this, for me to continue to deny. What use is their to going forward. all your proving is your not listening to a word I am saying, and continue to stick your foot in your mouth.

What saves? Circumcision?
What about Muslims then?

Please can you just point it out simply?

Was Jesus crucified in Rome, or Jerusalem?
Did Rome slay Israel's prophets?

OMG. Can someone help this young lady? she wants to continue to ask questions like this. there is no need going on.

If you read what I said, you would not make such rediculous statements! prove to me you read what I say and we can continue..

Once again. There is ONLY ONE WAY TO BE SAVED< FAITH IN CHRIST!