Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?
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M
Romans 11
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Was there a Spiritual Israel (Faithful Church, Remnant) who was not cut off due to unbelief?
If not, to what were the gentiles grafted in?
In order to support your idea that "all" israel (Jews) alive in some end-time scenario (believing or not, spiritual or not) will be protected, though you qualify somehow to say that doesn't mean "saved", you have had to make an arbitrary distinction here that is not intended:
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. - Revelation 12:17
For some reason you have divided the people described in 12:17 into unbelieving Israel/Jews ("who keep the commandments of God"?) and "Spiritual Israel" (who "hold to the testimony of Jesus") who you say can not include the faithful remnant olive tree, which existed BEFORE Christ was born, into which the gentiles were grafted, becoming The New Covenant Church.
I have read what you say.
So was anyone saved before Jesus came, and were they not Faithful Spiritual Israel Believers (the natural Olive Tree) who in the New Testament era were called Christians?
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Was there a Spiritual Israel (Faithful Church, Remnant) who was not cut off due to unbelief?
If not, to what were the gentiles grafted in?
In order to support your idea that "all" israel (Jews) alive in some end-time scenario (believing or not, spiritual or not) will be protected, though you qualify somehow to say that doesn't mean "saved", you have had to make an arbitrary distinction here that is not intended:
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. - Revelation 12:17
For some reason you have divided the people described in 12:17 into unbelieving Israel/Jews ("who keep the commandments of God"?) and "Spiritual Israel" (who "hold to the testimony of Jesus") who you say can not include the faithful remnant olive tree, which existed BEFORE Christ was born, into which the gentiles were grafted, becoming The New Covenant Church.
I have read what you say.
So was anyone saved before Jesus came, and were they not Faithful Spiritual Israel Believers (the natural Olive Tree) who in the New Testament era were called Christians?
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M
So you have Rome being both the beast, and the (Vatican) Harlot?
The Rome beast destroys the Vatican Harlot?
How does current Jerusalem fit into all this?
How does the Jerusalem Jesus talked about, and the Jerusalem Paul allegorized, and the Jerusalem John noted fit into all this?
"So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. - Matthew 23:31
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, - Matthew 23:34
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. - Matthew 23:37
"For this reason also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, - Luke 11:41
Galatians 4
Bond and Free
21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”
28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”
31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
(And among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah." - Jeremiah 23:14)
("She did not forsake her harlotries from the time in Egypt; for in her youth men had lain with her, and they handled her virgin bosom and poured out their lust on her. - Ezekiel 23:8)
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. - Revelation 11:8
for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it. - Revelation 16:6
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. - Revelation 17:6
In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth." - Revelation 18:24
for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants." - Revelation 19:2
Is any of the above really about Rome.
Also, I asked:
And God is obligated under which agreement or Covenant to save the unfaithful?
So again, I wonder where we have the idea that God will be protecting a woman you freely admit is unfaithful.`
You said He never has been under such an obligation.
I agree since The Old Covenant was broken.
So who is the woman in Revelation 17.
The Rome beast destroys the Vatican Harlot?
How does current Jerusalem fit into all this?
How does the Jerusalem Jesus talked about, and the Jerusalem Paul allegorized, and the Jerusalem John noted fit into all this?
"So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. - Matthew 23:31
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, - Matthew 23:34
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. - Matthew 23:37
"For this reason also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, - Luke 11:41
Galatians 4
Bond and Free
21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”
28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”
31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
(And among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah." - Jeremiah 23:14)
("She did not forsake her harlotries from the time in Egypt; for in her youth men had lain with her, and they handled her virgin bosom and poured out their lust on her. - Ezekiel 23:8)
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. - Revelation 11:8
for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it. - Revelation 16:6
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. - Revelation 17:6
In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth." - Revelation 18:24
for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants." - Revelation 19:2
Is any of the above really about Rome.
Also, I asked:
And God is obligated under which agreement or Covenant to save the unfaithful?
So again, I wonder where we have the idea that God will be protecting a woman you freely admit is unfaithful.`
You said He never has been under such an obligation.
I agree since The Old Covenant was broken.
So who is the woman in Revelation 17.
E
And this is supposed to answer how spiritual Israel gave birth to Christ? Have you discussed doctrine for very long? I am begining to think you are a babe and do not have much experience in this
Do what? I see what Abidinbg was trying to say now. wow.
Lets look at the veres again. we have two groups of people.
So the dragon was enraged with the woman,
Here is the woman. Who is she, the one the dragon was enraged at? we see this is the previous verse;
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
We see now who the woman is. Can you?
1. She gave birth to Christ
2. She fled to the wilderness
3. She was protected by God
4. Her protection lasts for 3 1/2 years
This pisses the dragon off. so what does he do? He goes after the second group of people
and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. - Revelation 12:17
1. He goes after the rest of her children
2. What separates these children from the woman herself? They are her children, They follow the commands of God and hold the testimony of Christ.
now, are you going to look at the passage? or keep trying to distort what it says?
(rolls eyes) You have read but you keep asking this question? As long as you continue to ask, you prove you have not read what I said.
Yet once again, Anyone saved BEFORE Christ would be spiritual Isreal (whether they were jew or greek. many greeks were saved in the OT, King davids mother was greek) But these people are not the woman, They are HER OFFSPRING. Why? Because the womans son was Christ, Christ bore the way of adoption into Gods family. thus they are his offspring.
Now can you please stop asking this question. if you can;t get it now. you never will!
Do what? I see what Abidinbg was trying to say now. wow.
Lets look at the veres again. we have two groups of people.
So the dragon was enraged with the woman,
Here is the woman. Who is she, the one the dragon was enraged at? we see this is the previous verse;
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
We see now who the woman is. Can you?
1. She gave birth to Christ
2. She fled to the wilderness
3. She was protected by God
4. Her protection lasts for 3 1/2 years
This pisses the dragon off. so what does he do? He goes after the second group of people
and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. - Revelation 12:17
1. He goes after the rest of her children
2. What separates these children from the woman herself? They are her children, They follow the commands of God and hold the testimony of Christ.
now, are you going to look at the passage? or keep trying to distort what it says?
(rolls eyes) You have read but you keep asking this question? As long as you continue to ask, you prove you have not read what I said.
Yet once again, Anyone saved BEFORE Christ would be spiritual Isreal (whether they were jew or greek. many greeks were saved in the OT, King davids mother was greek) But these people are not the woman, They are HER OFFSPRING. Why? Because the womans son was Christ, Christ bore the way of adoption into Gods family. thus they are his offspring.
Now can you please stop asking this question. if you can;t get it now. you never will!
E
rolls eyes. You don't listen to anything anyone says. so I am not going to waste my ttime answering the same questions over and over you never seem to get
The woman of rev 17 is satans greatest victory, The false bride (thus why she is called the harlot) who holds so much power in the world she has power to stop the beast, or at least hurt him, so he destroys her.
The woman of rev 17 is satans greatest victory, The false bride (thus why she is called the harlot) who holds so much power in the world she has power to stop the beast, or at least hurt him, so he destroys her.
Mark 8:22-33
A Blind Man Healed at Bethsaida
22 Then He came to Bethsaida; and they brought a blind man to Him, and begged Him to touch him. 23 So He took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the town. And when He had spit on his eyes and put His hands on him, He asked him if he saw anything.
24 And he looked up and said, “I see men like trees, walking.”
25 Then He put His hands on his eyes again and made him look up. And he was restored and saw everyone clearly. 26 Then He sent him away to his house, saying, “Neither go into the town, nor tell anyone in the town.”
Why wasn't this man completely healed the first time? Was Jesus not able to heal him fully the first time? Of course not. Jesus is making a point in his Word to us here. Read the following, Jesus is setting us up for something:
Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ
27 Now Jesus and His disciples went out to the towns of Caesarea Philippi; and on the road He asked His disciples, saying to them, “Who do men say that I am?”
28 So they answered, “John the Baptist; but some say, Elijah; and others, one of the prophets.” (the Jewish people didn't get it, didn't see at all).
29 He said to them (Jesus' disciples), “But who do you say that I am?”
Peter answered and said to Him, “You are the Christ.” (Peter got it right, but he didn't get it all right. Read on)
30 Then He strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him.
Jesus Predicts His Death and Resurrection
31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke this word openly. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. 33 But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
Peter got the messiah, son of God, part right. But he didn't get the mission of Jesus, the goal or plan of God right. Peter had cloudy vision. Most likely the disciples and Peter thought that they and Jesus were going to march up to Jerusalem and make Jesus King, kicking out all the religious pharisees and Roman authorities. But Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world. He said the kingdom is within us, one we couldn't see with the human eye. The resurrection and ascension was proclamation of the beginning of Jesus reign in heaven, a spiritual reign on earth through His saints, in which He sits on the throne of David (a metaphor for Christ's throne). Also, when the disciples asked Jesus about restoring the kingdom of Israel, Jesus corrected them by pointing them away from Jerusalem, not towards it. My point is this, we all don't see everything clearly in scripture, even I. Jesus often needs to continue to work His truth in us, touching our spiritual eyes and hears in helping us understand. I admit, I don't have the full knowledge and correct interpretation of everything in scripture, but is it my conviction, based on scripture, that EG (and I love you brother) and many others make the exact same mistake as Peter and the disciples made, expecting Christ to have an earthly reign, when clearly Jesus himself refute that notion.
Therefore, Marianna, we are not going to open their eyes. Jesus is going to have to do it, now or later, for many it will be later. It's not worth getting frustrated over.
EG, I am sure you are convinced in your position as well. Peace.
A Blind Man Healed at Bethsaida
22 Then He came to Bethsaida; and they brought a blind man to Him, and begged Him to touch him. 23 So He took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the town. And when He had spit on his eyes and put His hands on him, He asked him if he saw anything.
24 And he looked up and said, “I see men like trees, walking.”
25 Then He put His hands on his eyes again and made him look up. And he was restored and saw everyone clearly. 26 Then He sent him away to his house, saying, “Neither go into the town, nor tell anyone in the town.”
Why wasn't this man completely healed the first time? Was Jesus not able to heal him fully the first time? Of course not. Jesus is making a point in his Word to us here. Read the following, Jesus is setting us up for something:
Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ
27 Now Jesus and His disciples went out to the towns of Caesarea Philippi; and on the road He asked His disciples, saying to them, “Who do men say that I am?”
28 So they answered, “John the Baptist; but some say, Elijah; and others, one of the prophets.” (the Jewish people didn't get it, didn't see at all).
29 He said to them (Jesus' disciples), “But who do you say that I am?”
Peter answered and said to Him, “You are the Christ.” (Peter got it right, but he didn't get it all right. Read on)
30 Then He strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him.
Jesus Predicts His Death and Resurrection
31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke this word openly. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. 33 But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
Peter got the messiah, son of God, part right. But he didn't get the mission of Jesus, the goal or plan of God right. Peter had cloudy vision. Most likely the disciples and Peter thought that they and Jesus were going to march up to Jerusalem and make Jesus King, kicking out all the religious pharisees and Roman authorities. But Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world. He said the kingdom is within us, one we couldn't see with the human eye. The resurrection and ascension was proclamation of the beginning of Jesus reign in heaven, a spiritual reign on earth through His saints, in which He sits on the throne of David (a metaphor for Christ's throne). Also, when the disciples asked Jesus about restoring the kingdom of Israel, Jesus corrected them by pointing them away from Jerusalem, not towards it. My point is this, we all don't see everything clearly in scripture, even I. Jesus often needs to continue to work His truth in us, touching our spiritual eyes and hears in helping us understand. I admit, I don't have the full knowledge and correct interpretation of everything in scripture, but is it my conviction, based on scripture, that EG (and I love you brother) and many others make the exact same mistake as Peter and the disciples made, expecting Christ to have an earthly reign, when clearly Jesus himself refute that notion.
Therefore, Marianna, we are not going to open their eyes. Jesus is going to have to do it, now or later, for many it will be later. It's not worth getting frustrated over.
EG, I am sure you are convinced in your position as well. Peace.
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E
Your not going to convince someone when you ask the same question which has already been answered over and over. When you look at things, and come back and say they mean something which is impossible for it to mean. What you do is get them frustrated. And finally when you are asked questions and instead of answering them, you go off on side streets which has nothing to do with the question.
One way you might help her is to show her these things.
One way you might help her is to show her these things.
P
I don’t usually like to interrupt when you are preaching the gospel, but in this case I must
The woman cannot be Israel and (I a assuming you mean saved jews) , for why would Jesus separate Jewish Christians from non-Jewish Christians and protect and feed Jewish Christians in the wilderness and leave non-Jewish Christians in the tribulation, to deal with the devil.
The woman in the wilderness is the church or part of the church.
You just have to look at the news to see who flees in times of trouble, the children, the old men and women, and their carers. The strong or the men stay and fight the fruit of the church, and I don’t mean stay and fight with rocket launchers and with machine guns.
The woman in the wilderness is the church who God protects and feeds and looks after, the ones who could not stay and fight.
The seed of the woman is the fruit of the church that have no fear and are able to stay and preach the gospel
The tribulation is a world-wide thing not just in the Middle East.
In many cities in the world some of the church will have to flee into the wilderness
And I cannot see God just saying to the Jews all round the world, flee to the wilderness.
The woman cannot be Israel and (I a assuming you mean saved jews) , for why would Jesus separate Jewish Christians from non-Jewish Christians and protect and feed Jewish Christians in the wilderness and leave non-Jewish Christians in the tribulation, to deal with the devil.
The woman in the wilderness is the church or part of the church.
You just have to look at the news to see who flees in times of trouble, the children, the old men and women, and their carers. The strong or the men stay and fight the fruit of the church, and I don’t mean stay and fight with rocket launchers and with machine guns.
The woman in the wilderness is the church who God protects and feeds and looks after, the ones who could not stay and fight.
The seed of the woman is the fruit of the church that have no fear and are able to stay and preach the gospel
The tribulation is a world-wide thing not just in the Middle East.
In many cities in the world some of the church will have to flee into the wilderness
And I cannot see God just saying to the Jews all round the world, flee to the wilderness.
E
lol. you should have left well enough alone.
The church or spiritual isreal did not give birth to Christ. we see this from the beginning of Rev 12. because it says the woman (natural israel0 was ready to give birth to Christ.
then who is the rest of the offspring of the woman (christ was one child, so the rest would be her other0 if it is not the church? did it not say they obay the commands of God? The church can;t be the woman and the offspring all at the same time.
you mean the one who birthed Christ? Oh wait, it can;t be them, Christ birthed the church not the other way around!
what if the jews are already in their homeland at this time??
The church or spiritual isreal did not give birth to Christ. we see this from the beginning of Rev 12. because it says the woman (natural israel0 was ready to give birth to Christ.
then who is the rest of the offspring of the woman (christ was one child, so the rest would be her other0 if it is not the church? did it not say they obay the commands of God? The church can;t be the woman and the offspring all at the same time.
you mean the one who birthed Christ? Oh wait, it can;t be them, Christ birthed the church not the other way around!
what if the jews are already in their homeland at this time??
M
Just so I understand you, sometime in the future, the dragon will attempt to kill Unbelieving Jews (Flesh Israel, not Spiritual Israel) who reject Jesus, and God will help them flee to the wilderness, where He will protect them for 3 1/2 years.
Why will the dragon try to kill them since they hate Jesus and are lost sinners?
Why will God help them flee and protect them?
What happens as a result of that flight and protection?
Then, while God is protecting Unbelieving Jews who hate Jesus, the dragon is so enraged, he then goes after Christians, who God is not protecting.
Why isn't He protecting Christians?
So sometime in the future, God is protecting the Unfaithful, Unbelieving woman (under what Covenant provision?) more than 2000 years after Ancient Israel (who you say wasn't Spiritual Israel, then you said she was) "gave birth to the man child" - yet Christians are being slaughtered unprotected?
Why does God do this?
What is the result of this?
Who is doing the actual killing (people, not the dragon)?
So why are future Unbelieving Jews who hate Jesus and practice another religion based on hatred of Jesus told to take flight, and protected, while Christians are not?
In what way are they Israel at all?
Are the Unbelieving Jews the woman? You said they are not her offspring.
So why does God protect them from the dragon?
Is the Dragon a pope or Roman Catholic?
Is it Roman Catholics who do the killing or secular Romans?
Is Rome a kind of allegory for the whole unsaved world?
Who is the Antichrist according to your idea? From what religion or country does he come?
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M
One other problem..
Are the Unbelieving Jews (the woman, not Spiritual Israel) in Rome when they are told to take flight and be protected?
Or does the dragon try to kill them while they are in Jerusalem, but God has them flee from there?
And the dragon can't kill them because God has had them flee from where they are now, which supposedly is current (or future Jerusalem) - why doesn't God just protect them in Jerusalem (or the Israeli State), since He is protecting them.
So then where does the dragon go to kill Christians (Spiritual Israel)? Rome? the whole world?
Why does the beast (is the beast the dragon?) destroy his own woman (the Harlot Vatican)?
Could you fill in the narrative for me?
Are the Unbelieving Jews (the woman, not Spiritual Israel) in Rome when they are told to take flight and be protected?
Or does the dragon try to kill them while they are in Jerusalem, but God has them flee from there?
And the dragon can't kill them because God has had them flee from where they are now, which supposedly is current (or future Jerusalem) - why doesn't God just protect them in Jerusalem (or the Israeli State), since He is protecting them.
So then where does the dragon go to kill Christians (Spiritual Israel)? Rome? the whole world?
Why does the beast (is the beast the dragon?) destroy his own woman (the Harlot Vatican)?
Could you fill in the narrative for me?
M
But I don't understand where you get the idea that the Woman is Natural Israel who can not be Ancient Spiritual Israel (or even partially).
Earlier you said David and some others were Spiritual Israel (saved by faith in the Promise).
Hypothetically, if David was alive at the end-time, would he be protected in the Wilderness, or would he be killed by the dragon while unprotected?
Earlier you said David and some others were Spiritual Israel (saved by faith in the Promise).
Hypothetically, if David was alive at the end-time, would he be protected in the Wilderness, or would he be killed by the dragon while unprotected?
M
It might be my perfect personality or something
but im not so popular in these here parts
but i had an idear
Maybe we can share notes with likeminded folk and not just
contend...not that contending isnt fun and all but it cant
be all there is.
anyone?
but im not so popular in these here parts
but i had an idear
Maybe we can share notes with likeminded folk and not just
contend...not that contending isnt fun and all but it cant
be all there is.
I would like to understand the ideas Eternally Grateful is proposing.
I'm asking questions but he finds that laughable and is hostile, so I can't seem to get answers that I can work with.
Do you understand what he is saying?
Could you or anyone else explain it to me?
I searched for a awhile yesterday and found some similar ideas, but i couldn't make sense of them either.
I mean, I know why people think Rome is the Harlot of Revelation, but the rest of the narrative doesn't fit.
Maybe I'm completely wrong.
But I don't think so, because as I said there are too many things which are forced with the other idea (that this is all in the future).
God Bless
marianna.
M
For example, if this is in the future, and it is talking about the current State of Israel, which must be said to be at the very most Natural Israel who does not have the Spirit, how will they know to flee, since they don't read the New Testament and don't believe in Jesus, so would be unlikely to do what He said:
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains - Mk 13:14
This is part of what I don't understand.
It's not remotely close to what I read in the Bible.
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains - Mk 13:14
This is part of what I don't understand.
It's not remotely close to what I read in the Bible.
you are wrong, simple put. Was Mary mother of Jesus of Natural Israel? yes, by birth. She also was of Spiritual Israel by faith, as Abraham was. Was Ruth of Natural Israel, no, but YES to that of Spiritual Israel, which is exactly why God put Ruth in the line up of genealogy.
Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel (spiritual Israel) who are descended from Israel (natural Israel);
John 1:17
When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false."
What made Nathanael a true Tsraelite? It's right before your very eyes and you can't see it and flat out deny it. Therefore, our debating is made futile.