Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?

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marianna

Guest
I read somewhere else that the Antichrist (Dragon) has as his primary purpose 'the total extermination of the Jewish people'.

Why this is I don't know.

It was also said that this is why 'the Church must be actively involved with preserving Israel' (which I assumed meant the Israeli State).

Even if this were the case, why is the Church to be 'actively involved with preserving Israel' if God is planning to have it's inhabitants flee so He can protect them?

In what way is the Church supposed to be preserving Israel until then? I don't understand.

And then supposedly when the Dragon can't kill the Israelis he decides to kill the Christians. The Bible doesn't say Judaism is the woman is who gave birth to Christianity.

And meanwhile The Beast (who I assume must be the same as the Dragon) is actually destroying Rome where the Harlot is.

This is not adding up.
Could anyone just explain how it comes together?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Just so I understand you, sometime in the future, the dragon will attempt to kill Unbelieving Jews (Flesh Israel, not Spiritual Israel) who reject Jesus, and God will help them flee to the wilderness, where He will protect them for 3 1/2 years.

Why will the dragon try to kill them since they hate Jesus and are lost sinners?
first off. why again have you refused to answer the question? Why do you keep going off on side streets? Do you think this helps your cause and is going to convince me to turn to your line of thinking?

Second. can you please explain how you could be the MOTHER of a son, and at the same time be an offspring of your self? How would you give birth to yourself? Because this is what you are saying the woman did. She gave birth to her son, then when you are protected, the dragon goes after you. Thus saying that God not only protects you. but at the same time, allows the dragon to kill you in numbers to great to even count, as john said he saw you in heaven praising God who saved you. and will avenge your death.. so how silly this sounds?

third; Why will God help them flee and protect them?


He will try to kill them for the very reason he has been trying to kill them when they were created. God made a promise to them. And if he can kill every one of them, then God can't keep his promise.

what do the prophesies say?

1. Isreal will reject her messiah, and because of it be taken to all nations.
2. God will blind them until the end of the age, or the time of the gentile is fulfilled
3. At that time, there will be a time of Jacob's trouble, A time of distress such has never been seen since nations were formed, A time of great tribulation such as has never been seen on earth before or after.
4. This time period is a great awakening for the woman, Her protection by God, Her cry out to God as she realises her sin and that of her fathers. And what does this do? This causes her to repent and Pray for God to forgive them, and as paul says, ALL isreal (the woman) will be saved.

If Satan can prevent this from happening. Then He proves he is more powerfull than God. Why do you think the hitlers of the world has tried to kill her for the last 2000 years? do you think that is Gods doing?


What happens as a result of that flight and protection?
well lets see. 2 witnesses come. 144000 of them repent and are saved and end up going to all the earth proclaiming the good news of Christ, her messiah. And as Paul says, the whole nation recieved her Christ. and because of it many people from every tribe nation and tongue confess Jesus as her savior. I think it is pretty awesome don't you?
Then, while God is protecting Unbelieving Jews who hate Jesus, the dragon is so enraged, he then goes after Christians, who God is not protecting.

Why isn't He protecting Christians?
why did he not protect Job? God never promised to protect us from tribulation or even death, In fact in John 12 John tells us we overcome the dragon by not loving our life even to death, What a great privilege it is to lay your life down for God. and what a witness to the world it is that people will not lay down to the king, that eternity is far greater than life on this earth.

Why do you question God? thats the part I don;t get!




So sometime in the future, God is protecting the Unfaithful, Unbelieving woman (under what Covenant provision?) more than 2000 years after Ancient Israel (who you say wasn't Spiritual Israel, then you said she was) "gave birth to the man child" - yet Christians are being slaughtered unprotected?

Why does God do this?

What is the result of this?

Who is doing the actual killing (people, not the dragon)?



So why are future Unbelieving Jews who hate Jesus and practice another religion based on hatred of Jesus told to take flight, and protected, while Christians are not?
In what way are they Israel at all?

Are the Unbelieving Jews the woman? You said they are not her offspring.
So why does God protect them from the dragon?
Again do you think this helps your cause? All your doing is babbeling here. There is no way on Gods earth your going to convince me to come your way when you refuse to answer my question, then continue to ask the same question over and over and over.
Is the Dragon a pope or Roman Catholic?
Do you read?

Rev 12:

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Do you not get what this says? Satan, fights Michael, who is the angel who God told Daniel is protector of His people (isreal) where he no longer can be in the presence of God making accusation against Gods people (us), and no longer has an abode in heaven, He is cast to earth, and his angels. Remember when SATAN himelf caused Job such heartache by killing his family and taking everything Job had? Do you not believe we are caught up in a spiritual battle between God and satan, WHO IS THE DRAGON??

As John said, he knows his time is short, so what does Satan do? he cause the greates demonic activity the world has ever seen. This is the tribulation.

he first goes after the woman, Who gave birth to her son. Then when he realises he can;t go after her, he goes after her offspring. WHICH IS US!!


the rest of your questions do not deal with this topic of who the woman is. Are you going to discuss, or demand I answer your questions when you refuse to answer mine?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
But I don't understand where you get the idea that the Woman is Natural Israel who can not be Ancient Spiritual Israel (or even partially).
Because spiritual isreal is the offspring of the woman because of Christ, who is also the offspring of the mother.

The mother can;t be the mother, and also the offspring of the mother. did she give birth to herself??
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
Hi Bookends, I am glad you are online at the moment.
Could you explain this other theory to me?
Just simply, I want to understand how it works.
I can't right now, but I'm not sure I can explain it.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest


you are wrong, simple put. Was Mary mother of Jesus of Natural Israel? yes, by birth. She also was of Spiritual Israel by faith, as Abraham was. Was Ruth of Natural Israel, no, but YES to that of Spiritual Israel, which is exactly why God put Ruth in the line up of genealogy.

Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel (spiritual Israel) who are descended from Israel (natural Israel);

John 1:17
When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false."

What made Nathanael a true Tsraelite? It's right before your very eyes and you can't see it and flat out deny it. Therefore, our debating is made futile.

No you are wrong. The mother can not give birth to herself.

Without Christ. neither mary or ruth would have been saved. this your whole point is seen as invalid.


Rev says the 2 witnesses are protected by God until the end. They are saved, but they are also natural isreal

It also says 144000 will be saved, and they are also natural isreal.

It would be easy and logical to say then, her offspring are saved gentiles, who do not come from Isreal nationality. Because many of them are martyred, where God protects saved people from the nation of isreal.


The problem we have here is when these things take place. According to you it is past. If so, it can not be natural isreal. According to me it is future (satan has not been cast out of heaven yet) thus the woman can easily be who I say it is. This is the WHOLE aspect of contention between us in this subject.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I read somewhere else that the Antichrist (Dragon) has as his primary purpose 'the total extermination of the Jewish people'.
The antichrist is not the dragan. The dragon is Satan himself. The antichrist is a world ruler who is used by satan the same way Judas was used by him to turn in Christ.

so with this mistake. you should probably be leary of believing the rest.
 
M

marianna

Guest
first off. why again have you refused to answer the question?
Why do you keep going off on side streets?
Do you think this helps your cause and is going to convince me to turn to your line of thinking?
Which question are you referring to?
I'll answer any you specifically reference.

And this is supposed to answer how spiritual Israel gave birth to Christ?
Have you discussed doctrine for very long?
I am begining to think you are a babe and do not have much experience in this
Do what? I see what Abidinbg was trying to say now. wow.
Lets look at the veres again. we have two groups of people.
So the dragon was enraged with the woman,

Here is the woman.
Who is she, the one the dragon was enraged at?
we see this is the previous verse;

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14[/B] But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

We see now who the woman is. Can you?

1. She gave birth to Christ
2. She fled to the wilderness
3. She was protected by God
4. Her protection lasts for 3 1/2 years

This pisses the dragon off.
so what does he do?
He goes after the second group of people

and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. - Revelation 12:17

1. He goes after the rest of her children
2. What separates these children from the woman herself?
They are her children, They follow the commands of God and hold the testimony of Christ.

now, are you going to look at the passage?
or keep trying to distort what it says?

(rolls eyes)
You have read but you keep asking this question?

As long as you continue to ask, you prove you have not read what I said.

Yet once again, Anyone saved BEFORE Christ would be spiritual Isreal (whether they were jew or greek. many greeks were saved in the OT, King davids mother was greek) But these people are not the woman, They are HER OFFSPRING.
Why?
Because the womans son was Christ, Christ bore the way of adoption into Gods family. thus they are his offspring.

Now can you please stop asking this question. if you can;t get it now. you never will!
Second. can you please explain how you could be the MOTHER of a son, and at the same time be an offspring of your self? How would you give birth to yourself? Because this is what you are saying the woman did. She gave birth to her son, then when you are protected, the dragon goes after you. Thus saying that God not only protects you. but at the same time, allows the dragon to kill you in numbers to great to even count, as john said he saw you in heaven praising God who saved you. and will avenge your death.. so how silly this sounds?
Yes that all sounds silly.

third; Why will God help them flee and protect them?
He will try to kill them for the very reason he has been trying to kill them when they were created. God made a promise to them. And if he can kill every one of them, then God can't keep his promise.
What Promise did God make that He didn't fulfill?
He did keep His Promise.
Jesus came to save His people. He went to the lost sheep of The House of Israel and His own heard His voice and received Him. And He said He would bring the gentiles (another flock) also, and He did and has been.

So what Promise is not fulfilled?

Why would the Dragon (Satan) be interested in people who already rejected the Promise and have no unfulfilled promise aside from the same one offered to all people through the Gospel?

what do the prophesies say?

1. Isreal will reject her messiah, and because of it be taken to all nations.
Ok. Some did receive Him though. The ones who didn't were virtually all killed in 70AD.
Wehre does it say the ones who rejected Jesus would be taken to all nations?

2. God will blind them until the end of the age, or the time of the gentile is fulfilled c

What prophecy says that?
You said before those who died in unbelief won't be resurrected to eternal life, so how is that a kind or fair thing of God to do (blind them until the end of the age, but as a result they end up in hell)? This makes no sense.

3. At that time, there will be a time of Jacob's trouble, A time of distress such has never been seen since nations were formed, A time of great tribulation such as has never been seen on earth before or after
Where does it say this part: "since nations were formed"?

If it's the time of Jacob's trouble, why is it the worst time on earth for every other nation?

4. This time period is a great awakening for the woman, Her protection by God, Her cry out to God as she realises her sin and that of her fathers. And what does this do? This causes her to repent and Pray for God to forgive them,
This is the part I would ask for details on.
Where is any of that written?

and as paul says, ALL isreal (the woman) will be saved.
No, Paul does not say ALL Israel (the not-spiritual woman who reject the promise) will be saved.
He says those are not even Israel.

He said that the children who believe the Promise will be saved. The faithful - just like in Isaiah's day.
God preserves a remnant, the ones who are children of the promise, he specifically says NOT the flesh children who have no faith.

Why would Satan go after children God says are NOT the children of Abraham?
What promise is He obligated to fulfill for them (aside from the same Gospel promise all men are offered)?
I don't get it.

Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham - Galatians 3:7

If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise - Galatians 3:29

And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. - Galatians 6:16
(May God's peace and mercy be upon all who live by this principle; they are the new people of God)

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. - Romans 9

I keep posting this but you don't address it. I don't know why not.
Paul is clearly saying those who rejected Jesus and continue to do so are NOT children of the promise (there is NO promise).

He says the flesh children (the flesh non-spiritual Israel) will NOT inherit the kingdom.
So why would God protect them?
And Paul doesn't say what you said, that at the end of time Israelis have a change of heart and get saved.
Where does he say that?

Galatians 4
21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

27For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”

28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

If Satan can prevent this from happening. Then He proves he is more powerfull than God. Why do you think the hitlers of the world has tried to kill her for the last 2000 years? do you think that is Gods doing?
Prevent what from happening?
You said in an earlier post that this did not involved SALVATION, but recently you said it does (that the flesh children repent and are saved by 144,000 converts who take the gospel to the world).

But the Gospel is already going out to the world and has been for 2000 years.

well lets see. 2 witnesses come. 144000 of them repent and are saved and end up going to all the earth proclaiming the good news of Christ, her messiah. And as Paul says, the whole nation recieved her Christ. and because of it many people from every tribe nation and tongue confess Jesus as her savior. I think it is pretty awesome don't you?
Could you post the passages that prove what you said there?
This part: "And as Paul says, the whole nation recieved her Christ. and because of it many people from every tribe nation and tongue confess Jesus as her savior"

Where does it say the whole nation receives Jesus?

why did he not protect Job? God never promised to protect us from tribulation or even death, In fact in John 12 John tells us we overcome the dragon by not loving our life even to death, What a great privilege it is to lay your life down for God. and what a witness to the world it is that people will not lay down to the king, that eternity is far greater than life on this earth.
Job wouldn't be considered a Christian, would he?
You haven't shown in any way that God intends to protect Jewish people who have rejected Jesus from persecution.

I am aware that Christians will be persecuted. They are right now and always have been.

Why do you question God? thats the part I don;t get!
You're not God, are you?

Again do you think this helps your cause? All your doing is babbeling here. There is no way on Gods earth your going to convince me to come your way when you refuse to answer my question, then continue to ask the same question over and over and over.
What cause?
I don't think you'll see anything differently. I'm just trying to understand where you ideas came from.
Again, which question - I'll try to answer it.

Did you want to leave off answering any more of my questions?
Just say so.

Yes.

Rev 12:
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon;and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer . 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Do you not get what this says? Satan, fights Michael, who is the angel who God told Daniel is protector of His people (isreal) where he no longer can be in the presence of God making accusation against Gods people (us)


So Satan is still in heaven according to you?

and no longer has an abode in heaven, He is cast to earth, and his angels. Remember when SATAN himelf caused Job such heartache by killing his family and taking everything Job had? Do you not believe we are caught up in a spiritual battle between God and satan, WHO IS THE DRAGON??
Satan has no power over me.
Jesus defeated him. That's over for the Spiritual Israel.
We just have to resist.

As John said, he knows his time is short, so what does Satan do? he cause the greates demonic activity the world has ever seen. This is the tribulation.
But you think Revelation is a straight timeline.
It isn't.
It covers the Advents of the Messiah several times. It goes back and forth in time.

he first goes after the woman, Who gave birth to her son. Then when he realises he can;t go after her, he goes after her offspring. WHICH IS US!!
Well what do these passages suggest to you?
How do they fit in your idea?

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ." - Revelation 1:1,2

"I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." - Revelation 1:9

"Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring – those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus." - Revelation 12:17

"At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, ‘Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.’ " - Revelation 19:10


marturia: testimony
Original Word: μαρτυρία, ας, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: marturia
Phonetic Spelling: (mar-too-ree'-ah)

Short Definition: witness, evidence, testimony
Definition: witness, evidence, testimony, reputation.

For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy

What if this is the TESTIMONY ABOUT JESUS (both Old and New Testament)?
It says the Testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. - Luke 24:27

"But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. - Acts 3:18

"Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." - Acts 10:43

The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us." - John 4:25

The Samaritan woman believed in the Coming Messiah, because of the Prophesies.

the rest of your questions do not deal with this topic of who the woman is. Are you going to discuss, or demand I answer your questions when you refuse to answer mine?
Could we start again on the right foot?
I apologize for being dense or rude.

I'm going to post an article following this.
I think the parts about Herod's attempts to find and kill little Jesus (who had been secretly taken to Egypt), which resulted in the slaughter of the innocents (in Bethlehem) is what this is referring to:

So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. - Revelation 12:17

If you read it, it might help you at least see what my reading of the Bible is.
There are lots of links which show those events were fulfilled prophecy.

God Bless
marianna
 
M

marianna

Guest
Jesus’ Birth and Childhood

When the Birth of Jesus Took Place (Luke 2:1-3)


Luke gives an accurate time frame for the birth of Jesus that is based on several historical events. It took place during the reign of Caesar Augustus when Quirinius governed the province of Syria. More specifically it occurred during the year Caesar Augustus had ordered a census to be taken. Our problem is that we don’t know when the census took place. We are too far removed from the event and no records of this census have been found. Such is often the case. Time destroys many records. Until recently we did not know the names of most of Rome’s governors.

Caesar Augustus reigned from 31 B.C. to A.D. 14. Quirinius, a Roman Senator, was acting as consular in Syria as early as 12 B.C. By 6 A.D., he was appointed governor of Syria, as recorded by Josephus. “So Archelaus' country was laid to the province of Syria; and Cyrenius [or Quirinius], one that had been consul, was sent by Caesar to take account of people's effects in Syria, and to sell the house of Archelaus.” [The Antiquity of the Jews, 17.13.5] However, notice that Luke doesn’t call him a governor; Luke only mentions that Quirinius was governing (ruling) at the time Jesus was born. It is likely that Quirinius was in charge either of the region, or a least the census, prior to his appointment as governor of Syria.

A book called The Deeds of Augustus notes that Augustus had ordered three major censuses in his empire and that many local census were also conducted. This coincides with Luke’s mention that this was the first census conducted under Quirinius. Thus, Luke’s account implies that more than one census took place. At times you will find people claiming there is a historical contradiction between Quirinius’s census in 6 A.D. and the death of Herod the Great between B.C. 4 and 2 (some date his death to be April 3 B.C.). The truth is that nothing says that the 6 A.D. was the first census. An earlier census could easily have taken place before Quirinius was appointed governor, but while he was in chargein some capacity in Syria.

For the census, Joseph was required to go to his birthplace to register. The requirement to return to one’s native home is not unusual. A census in Egypt in A.D. 104 stated, “From the Prefect of Egypt, Gaius Vibius Maximus. Being that the time has come for the house to house census, it is mandatory that all men who are living outside of their districts return to their own homelands, that the census may be carried out ...” Another census in A.D. 48 also mentions people returning to their homelands: “I Thermoutharion along with Apollonius, my guardian, pledge an oath to Tiberius Claudius Caesar that the preceding document gives an accurate account of those returning, who live in my household, and that there is no one else living with me, neither a foreigner, nor an Alexandrian, nor a freedman, nor a Roman citizen, nor an Egyptian. If I am telling the truth, may it be well with me, but if falsely, the reverse. In the ninth year of the reign of Tiberius Claudius Augustus Germanicus Emperor.”

< clipped out a section on the census>

The Birth of Jesus (Luke 2:4-7)

Both Joseph and Mary, being of the lineage of David, traveled to their home town of Bethlehem. It wasn’t a convenient time as Mary was close to her time of delivery. It is here that we learn that Joseph and Mary are still engaged, but they have not yet completed their marriage. It is likely that this did not occur until after the child was born (Matthew 1:24-25).

The demand that everyone go to their birthplace put a strain on the temporary accommodations in the small town of Bethlehem. While waiting for the census to be completed, Joseph and Mary were staying in a stable. A manger served as the child’s cradle. Mary wrapped him in strips of cloth and laid him there. This is a foreshadow of a later event when Mary, along with others, wrapped the body of Jesus in strips of cloth before laying him in a tomb (John 19:40). The common practice of that day was to bathe a newborn, rub his skin with salt, and then wrap them in strips of cloth.


God’s Announcement of the Birth of His Son (Luke 2:8-20)


Luke’s mention of the shepherds living out in the fields, watching over their flocks at night, helps to define the time of the year Jesus was born. Sheep were kept in pens and feed from stored grasses during the winter months, but when the weather was warm and dry (from mid-April to mid-October), the shepherds took them out into pastures to allow them to graze. Distances to towns were too great to move the flocks into pens each night, so the shepherds would stand guard over the flocks in the pastures.

An angel appeared before them, glowing with the glory of God, causing fear in the shepherds. The angel reassures them and tells them that the birth of the Savior, who is the Anointed Ruler, has occurred in the city of David – Bethlehem, which was the birthplace of David. It was joyous news for all people, not just Israel. In the angel’s message is another foreshadowing of future events. The word “bring” translates the Greek word for evangelizing, the bearing of good news. The “good tidings” is another way to translate the gospel. And the news was for all people. Jesus later tells his disciples, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15).

As if being told by an angel of God wasn’t enough, the angel offers them proof: they would find a newborn baby, wrapped in his swaddling clothes, in a manger. Bethlehem was a small town, but finding a newborn baby would not be unusual. However, finding a newborn in a manger would not be an everyday occurrence.

The angel is then joined by a multitude of angels singing praises to God. He has offered a token of peace between Himself and straying man (John 3:16; I John 4:10). It was a fulfillment of prophecy (Isaiah 57:19).

When the angels departed, the shepherds decide to see this wonder for themselves. The fact that they were willing to leave their flocks in the middle of the night shows the strength of their belief in what they saw and heard. Without delay they went to Bethlehem and found Mary, Joseph, and the baby just as the angel had told them.

With such news, they could not keep it to themselves. They told everyone they could and, thus, the event becomes another historical marker. People would make note of the fact because shepherds would not leave their flocks at night for a made up story. Nor would it be easy to explain how they knew in the fields that there was a newborn baby and where to find the child. Therefore, people marveled at the message and remembered it. Most notably Mary kept these things in her heart to ponder. These statements offer early readers identifiable sources to confirm the truth of what was written.


The Prophecy of Simeon (Luke 2:21-35)

Eight days after the child’s birth, he was circumcised and given the name Jesus as told to both Mary and Joseph (Matthew 1:21; Luke 1:31).

A woman, giving birth to a son, was considered unclean for forty days because of the blood that was spilt during the birth (Leviticus 12:2-4). (A daughter’s time was longer because there was no circumcision and additional shedding of blood involved. Leviticus 12:5). At the end of her time, she was required to offer up two sacrifices to God (Leviticus 12:6). A sin offering to complete the days of uncleanness. It was offered whenever unintentional sin was involved (Leviticus 4:2-3), such as becoming unclean. A burnt offering demonstrated dedication to God (Leviticus 1:3-4, 9). It was wholly given, completely burnt, to illustrate complete dedication to God. A lamb was required for the sin offering and a pigeon or turtledove for the burnt offering. However, allowances were made for those who could not afford a lamb (Leviticus 12:8). We learn that Joseph and Mary are poor because less expensive option was chosen.

Being the firstborn child of Mary meant that Jesus was dedicated to God (Exodus 13:2). The parents of a firstborn child was required to redeem (“buy back”) their firstborn (Numbers 18:15-16). The Levitical priesthood was the replacement for Israel’s firstborn children (Numbers 3:12-13).

Because they were near Jerusalem, the family went to the temple to fulfill their obligations. While there, a man named Simeon met them. This godly man was a prophet of God. He was told that he would see the Christ before his death. His meeting of Mary and Joseph was not by chance; the Spirit lead him to enter the temple. He took up the child from his parents and blessed God while giving another prophecy. He testified that this child was God’s salvation for all people, a light for the Gentiles, and a glory to Israel (Isaiah 9:2; 42:6; 60:1-3). First by angels and now by Simeon, the scope of the Savior’s mission was declared from the beginning of his life on earth.

Joseph and Mary marveled at the words. Not that they did not already know because this was what God’s angel had told them before his birth. What was amazing is that apparently complete strangers recognized who was their infant son.

Simeon then warned Mary that things would not go smoothly with this child of hers. He would cause great turmoil in Israel and become a point of derision (Isaiah 8:14; Psalm 22:6-8). As a result Mary will also suffer great grief (John 19:25). Because of who Jesus is, people would be forced to make a choice and their choice will reveal the nature of their hearts (John 8:42-47; 15:22-24).


The Prophecy of Anna (Luke 2:36-38)

Coming right on the heels of Simeon was a prophetess named Anna. She had been married for seven years, but after her husband’s death, she dedicated herself to service in the Temple. Such women are mentioned in Exodus 38:8 and I Samuel 2:22. She was now 84 years old.

She not only added her thanksgiving to God, but she began spreading the word of the Messiah’s arrival to others. It is interesting that God chose humble shepherds in a remote area of Judea and an elderly widow to be the first messengers of the gospel.


The Wise Men (Matthew 2:1-12)

At some point, wise men from the East (most likely Medea) arrived in Jerusalem seeking out the King of the Jews. Because when they found Jesus, he is described as a young child and not a babe, and because Herod in seeking to destroy Jesus orders all children two and under to be killed, we conclude that the wise men probably arrived about one to two years after Jesus’ birth.

The Medes were noted astrologers and wise men (I Kings 4:30). They saw a star while in their eastern country that indicated a great king was born in Israel. Such was hinted at in Numbers 24:17. Thus, the third group announcing the Messiah are not even Israelites, but Gentiles! This too was prophesied in Isaiah 60:3.

Herod was not happy concerning this news and when Herod wasn’t happy, no one in Jerusalem was happy. History tells us that Herod was paranoid about being overthrown. He murdered his two older sons in 7 B.C. because he was convinced by the instigation of another son that they were plotting to overthrow him. Antipater, who encouraged his father’s murder of his older brothers, was also killed in 4 B.C., just before Herod’s death, for plotting to overthrow his father. It caused Augustus to joke that he would rather be Herod’s pig than one of his sons. As he approached the end of his life, Herod slaughtered thousands on the least hint that a rebellion might be breaking out.

Part of his paranoia might have come from the fact that he wasn’t an Israelite. He was a descendent of Edom. His father aided Julius Caesar during the conquest of Judea and Herod was a friend of Anthony and Octavian (who later became Caesar Augustus). Because of his friendship, he was given the title “King of the Jews,” but it took him three years of hard fighting take hold of his “kingdom.” Now, in his old age, foreigners come announcing the birth of a new King of the Jews. Such news would strike Herod’s deepest fears.

Thus Herod gathered his advisors, the chief priests and scribes, and asked them where it was prophesied that the Christ would be born. They cited Micah 5:2 as stating it would be Bethlehem in Judea.

Herod did not want word to get out that it was possible that the Messiah had been born, so he quietly recalled the wise men and asked when they saw the star appear. Such information would give him an idea how old the child was. He did tell the wise men where to look for the Messiah, but it was in hopes of having them do the work for him. He asked that they stop on their way home to let him know where the child was so he could also worship him.

As the wise men left, they noticed something strange. The star appeared to be going before them. Stars are relatively fixed objects. They don’t generally appear to move. Yet this one did and as they entered Bethlehem it appeared above one particular house. Again, think of the stars you see at night. Can you sight one that appears to be directly over your house and not your neighbors? Obviously, the Lord’s hand was behind this wandering star.

Notice that Mary and Joseph are no longer in a stable. Some time has passed and they are now living in a house. Entering the house, the wise men fell down to worship Jesus and presented Mary and the child gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh; each a costly commodity. It is because three types of gifts were given that the tradition of three wise men arose. However, the Bible says nothing about the number of men who came, nor the number of gifts given. We only know that three types of gifts were given by the wise men.

Notice, too, that Jesus is described now as a young child and not a babe. The Greek word paidion is used in classical Greek to apply to a child up to seven years old. It is used in the New Testament to refer to the 8 day old Jesus (Luke 2:21) and of a child old enough to believe in the Christ (Matthew 18:2,6). There is nothing in Matthew’s account indicating that the wise men visited Jesus shortly after his birth. Instead, we see indications that some time has elapsed.

Warned by a dream from God, the wise men did not return to Jerusalem and Herod. They returned to their homeland by a different route.


Joseph, Mary, and Jesus' Escape into Egypt (Matthew 2:19-23)

Meanwhile Joseph has another dream. An angel warns him that Herod will seek to kill Jesus. He is told to take his family to Egypt and remain until told to return. Recall that Joseph and Mary are very poor, but the gifts just left by the wise men gave them the finances to quickly leave Judea and move to Egypt. Once again we see the faith of Joseph. He got up that night and left with his family, not even waiting until morning to begin the long journey.

Eventually Herod caught on to the fact that the wise men were not coming back. Not knowing who the child was, he sent soldiers into Bethlehem and the surrounding area with orders to kill any male child two years old or less. Assuming that Herod padded the age to make sure he killed the Christ, we can guess that the wise men saw the star about a year prior. It is likely that Jesus was about a year old at the time of the wise men’s visit.

Unknowingly, Herod fulfilled another prophecy concerning the Christ; this one found in Jeremiah 31:15. The pain of the children’s deaths is depicted as Rachel’s sorrow. Rachel, Jacob’s beloved wife, died shortly after giving birth and was buried near Bethlehem and thus makes a fitting image of mother weeping for her children (Genesis 35:16-20). On her death bed she had named her child “son of my sorrow” though Jacob changed his name to “son of my right hand.”


The slaughter didn’t make it into the history books. After all, it occurred only in a small region and was just one of many murders issued by the paranoid King Herod.

Not long thereafter, Herod died and an angel appeared to Joseph again to tell him that it was now safe to return to Israel. As they journeyed, Joseph heard that Archelaus, Herod’s son, now ruled in Jerusalem. Herod had divided his kingdom into four parts and willed each part to a different son. Archelaus, Herod’s eldest surviving son, had almost as bad of a reputation as his father. At one Passover, he had three thousand people put to death. Eventually Augustus Caesar became disgusted with Archelaus’ cruelty and disposed him. Until then, we can understand Joseph’s concern about entering a region run by Archelaus. God also confirmed his unease in yet another dream. Joseph decided not to return to Bethlehem but to journey further into Galilee and back to their original town of Nazareth.

Matthew points out that this move also fulfilled prophecies. But notice that Matthew is not quoting one particular prophet, he is giving a general summary of what multiple prophets have said. Some readers confuse Nazarene with Nazirite. These are two different word. The former means someone from Nazareth, the later means someone under the Nazirite vow of Numbers 6. Jesus was not under the Nazirite vow, otherwise he would not have been able to partake of the fruit of the vine at the last supper (Nazirites are forbidden from eating anything related to grapes). A more reasonable case is made that the name Nazareth might be derived from the Hebrew word for “branch.” There are numerous prophecies concerning the Messiah being called the Branch, such as Isaiah 11:1. The best case, however, is that the region of Galilee had a poor reputation (John 7:52) and the town of Nazareth had an even poorer reputation (John 1:46). The Hebrew word netzer, from which Nazareth is derived, refers to the small twigs that are worthless (Isaiah 14:19; John 15:21). Such was deemed an appropriate name for a small village of little use. There are several prophecies dealing with people despising the Messiah, such as Isaiah 53:2-3 and Psalms 22:6. The Messiah's coming from a despised area was foretold in Isaiah 9:1-2. It is possible that Matthew is stating that by coming from Nazareth the foundations for Jesus’ eventual rejection were being laid.

Thus, three apparently conflicting prophecies were resolved: that the Messiah would come from the famed city of David, Bethlehem; that God would call him out of the mighty nation of Egypt; and that he would be despised for where he originated all neatly fit together.


There's more:

Jesus' Birth and Childhood: The Gospel Accounts: A Chronological Harmony
 
M

marianna

Guest
The Wise Men (Matthew 2:1-12)

At some point, wise men from the East (most likely Medea) arrived in Jerusalem seeking out the King of the Jews. Because when they found Jesus, he is described as a young child and not a babe, and because Herod in seeking to destroy Jesus orders all children two and under to be killed, we conclude that the wise men probably arrived about one to two years after Jesus&#8217; birth.

The Medes were noted astrologers and wise men (I Kings 4:30). They saw a star while in their eastern country that indicated a great king was born in Israel. Such was hinted at in Numbers 24:17. Thus, the third group announcing the Messiah are not even Israelites, but Gentiles! This too was prophesied in Isaiah 60:3.

Herod was not happy concerning this news and when Herod wasn&#8217;t happy, no one in Jerusalem was happy. History tells us that Herod was paranoid about being overthrown. He murdered his two older sons in 7 B.C. because he was convinced by the instigation of another son that they were plotting to overthrow him. Antipater, who encouraged his father&#8217;s murder of his older brothers, was also killed in 4 B.C., just before Herod&#8217;s death, for plotting to overthrow his father. It caused Augustus to joke that he would rather be Herod&#8217;s pig than one of his sons. As he approached the end of his life, Herod slaughtered thousands on the least hint that a rebellion might be breaking out.

Part of his paranoia might have come from the fact that he wasn&#8217;t an Israelite. He was a descendent of Edom. His father aided Julius Caesar during the conquest of Judea and Herod was a friend of Anthony and Octavian (who later became Caesar Augustus). Because of his friendship, he was given the title &#8220;King of the Jews,&#8221; but it took him three years of hard fighting take hold of his &#8220;kingdom.&#8221; Now, in his old age, foreigners come announcing the birth of a new King of the Jews. Such news would strike Herod&#8217;s deepest fears.

Thus Herod gathered his advisors, the chief priests and scribes, and asked them where it was prophesied that the Christ would be born. They cited Micah 5:2 as stating it would be Bethlehem in Judea.

Herod did not want word to get out that it was possible that the Messiah had been born, so he quietly recalled the wise men and asked when they saw the star appear. Such information would give him an idea how old the child was. He did tell the wise men where to look for the Messiah, but it was in hopes of having them do the work for him. He asked that they stop on their way home to let him know where the child was so he could also worship him.

As the wise men left, they noticed something strange. The star appeared to be going before them. Stars are relatively fixed objects. They don&#8217;t generally appear to move. Yet this one did and as they entered Bethlehem it appeared above one particular house. Again, think of the stars you see at night. Can you sight one that appears to be directly over your house and not your neighbors? Obviously, the Lord&#8217;s hand was behind this wandering star.

Notice that Mary and Joseph are no longer in a stable. Some time has passed and they are now living in a house. Entering the house, the wise men fell down to worship Jesus and presented Mary and the child gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh; each a costly commodity. It is because three types of gifts were given that the tradition of three wise men arose. However, the Bible says nothing about the number of men who came, nor the number of gifts given. We only know that three types of gifts were given by the wise men.

Notice, too, that Jesus is described now as a young child and not a babe. The Greek word paidion is used in classical Greek to apply to a child up to seven years old. It is used in the New Testament to refer to the 8 day old Jesus (Luke 2:21) and of a child old enough to believe in the Christ (Matthew 18:2,6). There is nothing in Matthew&#8217;s account indicating that the wise men visited Jesus shortly after his birth. Instead, we see indications that some time has elapsed.

Warned by a dream from God, the wise men did not return to Jerusalem and Herod. They returned to their homeland by a different route.

Joseph, Mary, and Jesus' Escape into Egypt (Matthew 2:19-23)

Meanwhile Joseph has another dream. An angel warns him that Herod will seek to kill Jesus. He is told to take his family to Egypt and remain until told to return. Recall that Joseph and Mary are very poor, but the gifts just left by the wise men gave them the finances to quickly leave Judea and move to Egypt. Once again we see the faith of Joseph. He got up that night and left with his family, not even waiting until morning to begin the long journey.

Eventually Herod caught on to the fact that the wise men were not coming back. Not knowing who the child was, he sent soldiers into Bethlehem and the surrounding area with orders to kill any male child two years old or less. Assuming that Herod padded the age to make sure he killed the Christ, we can guess that the wise men saw the star about a year prior. It is likely that Jesus was about a year old at the time of the wise men&#8217;s visit.

Unknowingly, Herod fulfilled another prophecy concerning the Christ; this one found in Jeremiah 31:15. The pain of the children&#8217;s deaths is depicted as Rachel&#8217;s sorrow. Rachel, Jacob&#8217;s beloved wife, died shortly after giving birth and was buried near Bethlehem and thus makes a fitting image of mother weeping for her children (Genesis 35:16-20). On her death bed she had named her child &#8220;son of my sorrow&#8221; though Jacob changed his name to &#8220;son of my right hand.&#8221;
It's this part I was trying to zero in on.
 
M

marianna

Guest
The antichrist is not the dragan. The dragon is Satan himself. The antichrist is a world ruler who is used by satan the same way Judas was used by him to turn in Christ.

so with this mistake. you should probably be leary of believing the rest.
So what kind of world ruler will he be?
You said Rome is the beast and the Vatican is the Harlot, right? (Sorry of I got it wrong).
Is he tied to the Catholic Church somehow or is he some other religion?

How does this Antichrist fit?
Is he in league with Rome against Israelis?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
So what kind of world ruler will he be?
You said Rome is the beast and the Vatican is the Harlot, right? (Sorry of I got it wrong).
Is he tied to the Catholic Church somehow or is he some other religion?

How does this Antichrist fit?
Is he in league with Rome against Israelis?

why do I bother?? so do you agree with me that the dragan and antichrist is not the same? or do you still think he is??


why do you feel you must need answer a questions with questions which do not even come close to what the question i asked are the statement I made?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I read somewhere else that the Antichrist (Dragon) has as his primary purpose 'the total extermination of the Jewish people'.

Why this is I don't know.

It was also said that this is why 'the Church must be actively involved with preserving Israel' (which I assumed meant the Israeli State).
again, who says this? if anyone says this they are wrong. God does not need the church to protect anyone, the churches job is to go into the world and make disciples.

Even if this were the case, why is the Church to be 'actively involved with preserving Israel' if God is planning to have it's inhabitants flee so He can protect them?

In what way is the Church supposed to be preserving Israel until then? I don't understand.

And then supposedly when the Dragon can't kill the Israelis he decides to kill the Christians. The Bible doesn't say Judaism is the woman is who gave birth to Christianity.
Your right, the bible does not say judiasm is the woman. it says isreal is. (Your seed, from the seed of abraham isaac and jacob, from which came the 12 tribes, will come the messiah) there is a difference between isreal and judaism.

And meanwhile The Beast (who I assume must be the same as the Dragon) is actually destroying Rome where the Harlot is.

This is not adding up.
Could anyone just explain how it comes together?

why would the beast destroy his own capitol city? this does not make sense. it sounds like you have been taught or read things which are not true. maybe this is why your having such a hard time?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
This is getting ridiculous. You won;t answer questions. You ask question which do not even pertain to what is being asked of you. You keep saying things which even I do not believe.

All I can assume is you have no desire to even learn what it is I believe, but want to argue. I am not here to argue with people who will not even try to see what it is I believe and understand.
 
M

marianna

Guest

why do I bother?? so do you agree with me that the dragan and antichrist is not the same? or do you still think he is??


why do you feel you must need answer a questions with questions which do not even come close to what the question i asked are the statement I made?
I asked you to restate the questions.
There's no need to be hostile and dismissive.

I know the Bible identifies the Dragon as Satan.
I never said I was looking for an "Antichrist". I was trying to understand what you believe.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I asked you to restate the questions.
There's no need to be hostile and dismissive.

I know the Bible identifies the Dragon as Satan.
I never said I was looking for an "Antichrist". I was trying to understand what you believe.

I thought we were talking about who the woman is. should we not come to understand this before we go forward? Lets get rev 12 down before we move to rev 13, does that not sound like a good idea?

 
M

marianna

Guest
Your right, the bible does not say judiasm is the woman. it says isreal is. (Your seed, from the seed of abraham isaac and jacob, from which came the 12 tribes, will come the messiah) there is a difference between isreal and judaism.
Is there?
The Bible actually says Jerusalem with her Oral Traditions is the Harlot woman.

why would the beast destroy his own capitol city? this does not make sense. it sounds like you have been taught or read things which are not true. maybe this is why your having such a hard time?
YOU SAID THE BEAST IS ROME AND THE HARLOT IS THE VATICAN
 
M

marianna

Guest
This is getting ridiculous. You won;t answer questions. You ask question which do not even pertain to what is being asked of you. You keep saying things which even I do not believe.

All I can assume is you have no desire to even learn what it is I believe, but want to argue. I am not here to argue with people who will not even try to see what it is I believe and understand.
Which question are you referring to?
I'll answer any you specifically reference.
....................
Could we start again on the right foot?
I apologize for being dense or rude.

God Bless
marianna
You're not able to articulate it so far, that's why I don't understand it.
Your ideas contradict themselves.

Please don't be so hostile. It's not helping.

Just because I don't agree with you, you see this as arguing for the sake of it or insubordination of some sort.
This is rather proud.

You ought to be able to defend your position easily.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Is there?
The Bible actually says Jerusalem with her Oral Traditions is the Harlot woman.
it does?? well thats your opinion. but i don't see it.

Jerusalem and her oral tradition is not rich, does not influence the worlds kings, does not make the worlds merchants rich by selling her goods. and will not be mourned by the world when she is destroyed. if anything, the world will jump for joy and have the greatest party they ever had if isreal is destroyed.


YOU SAID THE BEAST IS ROME AND THE HARLOT IS THE VATICAN
Scripture said the beast is rome, Not I. And the vatican is part of the harlot system, in fact probably the largest part of it. Anything which leads people away from God and comes from satan is the harlot. What greater system today is their than the bishop of rome? I can think of none.

But that all of course assumes this stuff all takes place when the vatican holds as much power as she does today. something can always take her place and be stronge. We don't know now do we?
 
M

marianna

Guest

I thought we were talking about who the woman is. should we not come to understand this before we go forward? Lets get rev 12 down before we move to rev 13, does that not sound like a good idea?

Have you read my posts?
Enough to understand what I am trying to say?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You're not able to articulate it so far, that's why I don't understand it.
Your ideas contradict themselves.

Please don't be so hostile. It's not helping.

Just because I don't agree with you, you see this as arguing for the sake of it or insubordination of some sort.
This is rather proud.

You ought to be able to defend your position easily.
Oh they do? How can they contradict? Your the one saying the woman gave birth to herself. Now that is a contradiction.

I am easily defending my position.l Your making it hard by asking questions which do not even pertain to the subject at hand. You know what they call that don't you??