Pregnancies from rape a "gift from God"?????

[lost1972]

for those of you who think it's ok to kill children just because they are too much of a burden, it's not me you will have to answer to, and I cant believe someone on here is comparing Jesus dying on the cross to murder, Jesus could have called off the entire thing any time he wanted too, he went to that cross for us, not because God waned to murder him, and for the record murder means someone is dead, Jesus isn't dead.

 

[lost1972]

Abraham was doing what God asked him to do out of Faith, if some people had actually READ their bible you would understand that God never intended for him to kill his son, but to only test his faith, If God was speaking directly to you, don't you think he knows what he's talking about? There are probably people on here who would argue with him though

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Abraham was doing what God asked him to do out of Faith, if some people had actually READ their bible you would understand that God never intended for him to kill his son, but to only test his faith, If God was speaking directly to you, don't you think he knows what he's talking about? There are probably people on here who would argue with him though

Hi Lost. Thank you for your response.

I do understand this interpretation of the passage. This is my understanding as well. That does not change the argument of those who question it, however. It's still a "dirty trick" in any other light. That is, if not in the light of Christ.

All I can do is pray for my friends.

 

[lost1972]

Hi Lost. Thank you for your response.

I do understand this interpretation of the passage. This is my understanding as well. That does not change the argument of those who question it, however. It's still a "dirty trick" in any other light. That is, if not in the light of Christ.

All I can do is pray for my friends.

I think the main point of him doing that is even when God tells you to do something that doesn't make sense, he knows what he's doing, it was not a dirty trick, even if God had allowed him to kill his son, do you think God is going to hold him accountable for something he asked him to do?

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I think the main point of him doing that is even when God tells you to do something that doesn't make sense, he knows what he's doing, it was not a dirty trick, even if God had allowed him to kill his son, do you think God is going to hold him accountable for something he asked him to do?

This is how I interpret it, too. It's a story meant to tell us the faith of Abraham, with a backdrop that would have made much more sense to the early Hebrews who read it first than it does to us today. That's why I love the story of Christ crucified, resurrected and ascended ... because that one makes sense no matter who or where you are.

 

[RickShafer]

It never ceases to amaze me, the contortions some twist their logic into to
arrive at the preferable view to them.
Isn't it a shame that Lucifer makes that so easy for them to do.
And be misguided right into Hades.

 

[HeavenlyWarrior]

Actually, the RCC is VERY active in helping women with unwanted pregnancies. They have programs all over the country where, if you are pregnant and don't want to keep the baby, for whatever reason, you can stay in their facility, no questions asked, free of charge. They provide food, housing, and pre-natal medical services, as well as education and training as necessary, until the baby is born. Once the baby is born they take care of finding a family to adopt it, and the woman is free to go, no debt to pay back (save her own conscience, which many women do end up giving back to the church just out of thanks).

Could you return and provide links to those places please? And do those places have "qualifiers" for a woman to get all of the assistance she needs without a problem or would they be precluded from some assistance due to some personal issue(s) on the woman's part that the church may be against?

Another thing one must seriously consider is the disease factor. The church is very against the use of condoms but we all know it seriously helps to prevent disease and unwanted pregnancies not only here in this country but especially in the poorer countries. How are they helping this situation with their firmstance on this matter? Are they then fully prepared to help pay for medical costs for the millions across the world who are Catholic but are getting AIDS and other life-threatening diseases simply because they tell them not to use the protection a condom affords and people are following that advice?

Also, the pope is not wealthy at all. He, in fact, has absolutely no personal wealth. He has some control over a lot of the church's assets, but none of it is in his name -- it is only in the church's name. All priests, the pope included, take a vow of poverty.

Then many would suggest they start selling all of those fabulous paintings, expensive furniture and fixtures, and the pope's chair of gold which they don't really need as well as other assets to begin with and give the money DIRECTLY to those who have considered abortion or could not afford to have a child because the church did not allow them to use a condom and the children who have been born legitimately or out of wedlock and are unwanted should not have to suffer as well as orphaned children who should have some means of continuing support from the church after they are born. They surely need the money Desperately and imho the Vatican needs to act more like Christ did when He said to sell everything and to join Him in helping others. We still have not seen that done by the church as an act of true faith in Him.

And even if you were to look at the assets of the church, those are not nearly what they once were. RCC membership is declining in developed countries, where people have money to donate, and increasing in countries where they use more of the church's resources than replenish them. Add to that a considerable scandal in the US over the last few decades that they are still paying out in the form of lawsuits and hush money, plus other cases in Europe over various issues, and they really don't have the resources to do significantly more than what they are already doing.

And how so many people feel that that could have all been avoided by getting rid of that problem right when it started so they would not have had to pay out all of that money that could have gone to much better and truly needy humanitarian causes.

So yes, those who are against abortion but not willing to pay more to help the children who are already in the world are hypocrites. Just realize that a lot of those who claim to be "pro-life" really are pro-life. They do put their money where their mouths are.

They may indeed be Pro-Life and that's great, but again they need to truly put their money where their mouth is and show the country and the world that they are truly serious and ready to take care of this immense problem since they surely have the financial means to really help and truly believe in the cause. As for the Church, they really can do much better in this regard and should!

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Could you return and provide links to those places please? And do those places have "qualifiers" for a woman to get all of the assistance she needs without a problem or would they be precluded from some assistance due to some personal issue(s) on the woman's part that the church may be against?

Gladly! Pregnancy Support
There are different levels in different areas. There are some who ask you to attend daily prayer services while you are living there, but many do not require that. It's simply another service they offer: while you're here, come and pray with us, God will help us all. Others may ask you to commit to giving the child up for adoption, so they can recoup their losses (which makes sense). However, if you want to keep your child, they will still help you and help you figure out how to do that. Some of them also receive government grants, and if they do that, they cannot have any religious requirements. So if you're not Catholic -- even if you're an atheist -- the only requirement is that you're pregnant.

Another thing one must seriously consider is the disease factor. The church is very against the use of condoms but we all know it seriously helps to prevent disease and unwanted pregnancies not only here in this country but especially in the poorer countries.

Oh, I totally agree with you there. I have heard tell that some Catholic charities in Africa and other 3rd world countries where women do not have the kind of human rights that we do here are kind of "cheating." See, in the US, a lot of us women take for granted that if we don't want to have sex, we're not going to have sex. Rape is an issue here, and it's higher than it should be, but there are still precautions women can take. In many countries, women are forced to have sex, and often the society doesn't even see it as rape, but as "performing their wifely duties." I am thankful I don't live like that!!!! But still, in these countries, I've heard rumors that Catholic missionaries, as well as non-Catholics, are instructing women in the use of condoms, to protect them from disease. They see it as following God, and they're just waiting for men to catch up to God's command in this area.

And I don't mean to say Catholics are perfect. Far from it. I am not Roman Catholic, nor would I ever become one. I disagree with too many of their doctrines. But I do respect them, and I wish my own church would do as much mission work as they do.

Then many would suggest they start selling all of those fabulous paintings, expensive furniture and fixtures, and the pope's chair of gold .....

Oh, I'm with you sister!

This is a deeper issue, though. We had a similar problem in one of our congregations many years back. One "faction" wanted to raise money to "fix up" the place. There was a lot of work that needed to be done -- some of it cosmetic (painting, gardening), but some of it necessary (new roof, plumbing). They were talking about raising several millions of dollars to put in a capital fund, and then using the interest of that fund to fix the church, and not touching the money (unless it was an emergency). This is not uncommon in non-profits, even in churches.

Others, however, saw this as wasteful. If we could raise a million dollars, we should give it to the poor. God doesn't care about how pretty the church looks on the outside, he cares what goes on inside.

I could see both sides of the argument. A capital fund is a responsible way to be a good steward of one's resources. If you just give all your money to the poor, then you don't have anything left, and next year there will still be poor, but you won't be in a position to help them.

I also recognize that we have the RCC to thank for preserving some of the treasures of the Western world over these last 2 centuries. I mean, perhaps it would be better for there to be, say, 100 fewer abortions, and instead, we would never have heard of DaVinci .... As an artist myself, I remain skeptical.

But putting all that aside, in the end, you are right: none of us are doing enough, and we can make any excuse we want to. Any excuse will work.

 

[OFM]

i deeply strongly agree with the above 2 post well written well stated well shared amen-eth.

 

[abair]

Religious people Savages
When it comes to women
I hope that who agree to keep a child of rape
get raped
any one think that evil is gift of God
should raped

 

[jimmydiggs]

Religious people Savages
When it comes to women
I hope that who agree to keep a child of rape
get raped
any one think that evil is gift of God
should raped

I don't think that's the best reaction. Just sayin' bro...

 

[lost1972]

so the reaction some people have to something terrible happening is I now hate this innocent child, I better rush to the doctor so it can be murdered.

 

[smithbr8]

so the reaction some people have to something terrible happening is I now hate this innocent child, I better rush to the doctor so it can be murdered.

Have you been raped? I don't like playing this card, but unless you have-there's NO way to know what it's like. Try being raped as a child and suffering from PTSD for 12 YEARS after it happens. God only know what would've happened to me had I ended up pregnant. It was enough not to take my own life after the incident. Until you know EXACTLY what it feels like to be put into that situation, don't say ALL women should be strong after that. Yes, there are those women who keep the babies and I applaud them for it. However those of us who were raped at ages 12, 11, even 10 years old and may have ended up pregnant (Yes, you can get pregnant that young) go ahead and imagine the life of that kid from that point on. Imagine your own daughter was raped at age 11 and ended up pregnant. Was she a slut and asked for it to happen? Is it now her responsibility to drop out of middle school and take care of this baby? Should she abandon her life now? Oh her body is tiny and frail, do you REALLY think she can withstand going through childbirth?God forbid what the neighbors say- do you really want to put her through that trauma in addition to what she's already been through? This girl wouldn't stand a chance. She would not be alive today- not with all the pressure we place on young girls who are grabbed in the middle of the night, raped, and then told "Oh you should be happy now. You're a whore anyways, you probably wanted this to happen. Shame on you for having a child that young. What? You don't want a child that young? Too bad. You have to- so we can make fun of you"

 

[abair]

so the reaction some people have to something terrible happening is I now hate this innocent child, I better rush to the doctor so it can be murdered.

no it is not
this is saving the victim from get raped every minute for the rest of her life
who said it is murder ?

 

[jimmydiggs]

no it is not
this is saving the victim from get raped every minute for the rest of her life
who said it is murder ?

I fail to see how abortion will prevent rape. Do tell.

 

[smithbr8]

I fail to see how abortion will prevent rape. Do tell.

People, you do not understand PTSD. Please. Don't try to tell people to get over it. Would you tell a man paralyzed from the waist down to just "get over himself" and walk already since he's lazy?

 

[jb]

In reading through this thread it really amazes me at the hardness of some of the replies in it (from men mainly) at their complete lack of understanding of the terrible emotional, mental, spiritual and physical violation a woman goes through when they get raped, which (even with the Lord Jesus in their lives) stays with them the rest of their lives in varying degrees...and then in the weeks following the rape finding out they are pregnant because of it.

So, what these legalistic hard hearted persons wish to do is condem these women to (in many cases, if not all) a living nightmare...and with such a great burden it surely is more than many women can cope with and thoughts of suicide must surely fill their minds.

In my opinion provision for these women must be made to enable them to have the embyro/foetus aborted if that is what they choose to do.

I certainly do not agree with abortion on demand, but in certain circumstances (one being pregnancy through rape) it should be available as a choice for the woman concerned.

Yahweh Shalom

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I have heard stories of women who were raped, and who decided to keep the child produced from that. Some women are able to do that. I don't know how, but they are.

I know there are some soldiers who are able to do 3, 4, or even 5 tours of duty, watching their friends die, watching enemies die right in front of them, and can walk away relatively unscathed. Every study shows that is the exception, not the rule.

The fact that there may be a handful of humans who are able to withstand unthinkable violence and move on with their lives does not mean that those who don't are weak, or that they don't pray enough, or any other deficiency on their own part.

 

[jimmydiggs]

People, you do not understand PTSD. Please. Don't try to tell people to get over it. Would you tell a man paralyzed from the waist down to just "get over himself" and walk already since he's lazy?

I don't know why you're quoting my post, when I have not addressed anything positively or negatively that you raise in the post of which I have just now quoted.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I don't know why you're quoting my post, when I have not addressed anything positively or negatively that you raise in the post of which I have just now quoted.

Hi jimmy.

For many people suffering from PTSD, there is a "trigger" -- it could be a sudden loud noise, a certain smell, a picture of a person ... what happens is that every time that "trigger" is pulled, they completely relive the violence which started the PTSD. Some people have more than one trigger. For some, almost anything can set you off; but for most people, part of the amazing healing that our brain does on itself is to limit the trigger to one or two things, so that you can function most of the time, as long as you avoid the trigger.

I had a friend who was in 'Nam. If there was a loud clap or crash -- a book dropped to the ground, or a car backfiring -- he was right back there in the jungle. You could see it in his eyes: he'd look around, and you could tell he wasn't seeing what was there, but something else. Those who were close to him knew to avoid making loud noises around him. Avoiding those noises were allowing him just a few hours of peace.

Now, I do not have PTSD. I can only go by what I have been told, by doctors, and by those suffering from the affliction. It seems to me, however, that if someone had been raped, and was suffering from PTSD from that rape, a pregnancy could easily be a trigger. Even to say, "just carry the child to term and then give it up for adoption" is expecting the victim to relive this extremely violent action for nine months. This is cruel and unusual punishment according to the Geneva convention, and there are lawmakers who say women who are victims of rape should be subjected to this punishment because ... what, because we have wombs? That's the sin we've committed?

Smith seems to be indicating that she has been in this situation. She did not share whether or not she became pregnant from the rape, but she was brave and trusting enough with the group here to share something very private. She was trying to explain that telling a woman who has been raped that her resulting pregnancy is a "gift" is inhumane. Expecting a woman to go through with that pregnancy is inhumane.

Your response was, "I fail to see how abortion will prevent rape." While you may not have intended that to be snide and condescending, it really did come off that way, not just to Smith but to me and it seems to jb as well. Your parting jab of "Do tell" offers you no recourse.

If you honestly did not understand what she was getting at, and wanted clarification, perhaps there were more, how shall we say, delicate ways you might have asked for said clarification.

If you did understand her and were just being snide, then an apology is completely called for.