If Obama is so anti business ...

[djness]

Record breaking profits have not induced record breaking hireing. CEOS making millions has not saved people from continually losing jobs.

This is great that more corporations have done better under Obama, who is pocketing those profits?

It makes for a grand check mark on the presidents to do list but who is the money going to?

Certainly not the people I know who works just as hard and keep getting pay cuts. What substantiates a pay cut in lieu of ''corporate profits''...oh right...you make money by not paying people.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I respect the legal validity of your opinion Jim; however, I'm also grateful that I was able to access the Pell Grant to obtain my first college degree after being honorably discharged from the military which didn't have an educational GI benefit in the Reagan era.

Interestingly, every successful government has some combination of both socialism and free market enterprise. The unsuccessful do not.

The military is a form of socialism. So is law enforcement, air traffic control, the public highway system, etc... Many of these simply work better as a social enterprise rather than if left to the private sector while many do not work better but give less desirable results than the private sector would provide.

The most successful nations find a winning balance. Imho, the discussion really is about what works best in the present as a social enterprise and what works best in the present as a private enterprise. I use the word present because some things that were in the public sphere have degraded to the point they need to be privatized (areas of public education, for example) and visa versa (though less visa versa currently) and this balance may change in fifty years.

Greece and Spain are finding out what happens when you let your public sphere grow to outlandish proportions just like the old Soviet Union did. But many small despotic nations have discovered what happens when you forgo a public sphere alltogether... like Liberia, for example.

We don't want private armies building and then controlling our nation's roadways and charging tolls every ten miles and if you don't pay you eat a bullet. We need more of a defense in this modern time than everyone's personal firearm collection. Well... you should be getting my point by now.

First of all, those two things are totally unrelated. The military is a constitutionally sanctioned service, going to college is not. To answer your question, no I do not think the Federal Government should be giving Pell grants to people. We have a right to obtain a college education, not a right to one.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Here are a few articles I wrote on this topic that you may find informative:

U.S. Pass-Through Businesses Make Record Profits But Pay No Federal Income Taxes:
U.S. Pass-Through Businesses Make Record Profits But Pay No Federal Income Taxes ~ Help Fix America First

The U.S. Labor Market and Household Income Continue To Worsen:
The U.S. Labor Market and Household Income Continue To Worsen ~ Help Fix America First

Balance The Budget And Pay Off The National Debt:
Balance The Budget And Pay Off The National Debt ~ Help Fix America First

Record breaking profits have not induced record breaking hireing. CEOS making millions has not saved people from continually losing jobs.

This is great that more corporations have done better under Obama, who is pocketing those profits?

It makes for a grand check mark on the presidents to do list but who is the money going to?

Certainly not the people I know who works just as hard and keep getting pay cuts. What substantiates a pay cut in lieu of ''corporate profits''...oh right...you make money by not paying people.

 

[celestemekent]

What has happened is that the American worker has over the last decade become one of the most productive of all workers in the world. That is how those profits were generated.

 

[JimJimmers]

Ageofknowledge: Thanks for your post, and thanks for your service. I think we're pretty much on the same page, as I'm not a staunch private-enterprise-only person, but I'll write a few notes to clarify.

I respect the legal validity of your opinion Jim; however, I'm also grateful that I was able to access the Pell Grant to obtain my first college degree after being honorably discharged from the military which didn't have an educational GI benefit in the Reagan era.

Interestingly, every successful government has some combination of both socialism and free market enterprise. The unsuccessful do not. I agree there, The Constitution specifically says that legal representation shall be provided to anyone who can't afford it, which would be a 'socialist' policy for lack of a better word. (I don't consider it exactly socialist, but it's not free market enterprise, surely.)

The military is a form of socialism. So is law enforcement, air traffic control, the public highway system, etc... Many of these simply work better as a social enterprise rather than if left to the private sector while many do not work better but give less desirable results than the private sector would provide.

The most successful nations find a winning balance. Imho, the discussion really is about what works best in the present as a social enterprise and what works best in the present as a private enterprise. I use the word present because some things that were in the public sphere have degraded to the point they need to be privatized (areas of public education, for example) and visa versa (though less visa versa currently) and this balance may change in fifty years.
LOL, you're right. Not much privatization going on lately. About the only thing that is private that I don't agree with is The Federal Reserve, as they operate in a quasi-governmental capacity, and get the unfair advantage of a hybrid. I agree the the military should be government run, as I mentioned in my last post, it is accepted as a duty of the Federal Government in The Constitution. Law enforcement is handled largely by state and local governments, but is still a fair public good, in my opinion.

Greece and Spain are finding out what happens when you let your public sphere grow to outlandish proportions just like the old Soviet Union did. But many small despotic nations have discovered what happens when you forgo a public sphere alltogether... like Liberia, for example. The beauty of a republic is finding that perfect balance. But there are always people who can disguise an overreaching law as something to help people. Social Security for example. I think we should all be extremely careful before saying "Why doesn't the government do something about this?"

We don't want private armies building and then controlling our nation's roadways and charging tolls every ten miles and if you don't pay you eat a bullet. We need more of a defense in this modern time than everyone's personal firearm collection. Well... you should be getting my point by now. Yes, but I am against private armies. And I never made any explicit or implicit argument against the U.S. Military.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Several decades ago, there was a chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab, the Professor noticed a man, an exchange student, who kept rubbing his back and stretching as if his back hurt.

The professor asked the young man what was the matter.

The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist regime.

In the midst of his story, he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked: "Do you know how to catch wild pigs?"

The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said that it was no joke.

"You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming.

When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence.

They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side.

The pigs, which are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat the free corn again.
You then slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd. Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom.

They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught.

When released....... they soon go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it, that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity."

The man told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening in America.

Ageofknowledge: Thanks for your post, and thanks for your service. I think we're pretty much on the same page, as I'm not a staunch private-enterprise-only person, but I'll write a few notes to clarify.

 

[celestemekent]

Thanks for the myth what it has to do with the thread here, I cannot tell. Unless your intention is to compare the American workers to pigs and that is as offensive as can be. You obviously are still caught up in the cold war theology. You need to join us in the 21st century.

 

[Walkinginfaith]

"You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming.



The man told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening in America.

Oh yes I see it too. Not a good thing at all . Scary if you ask me. Goverment preys on ignorance.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

When you don't understand something, you should ask [nicely]. But you chose not to. Instead, you chose to judge, convict, and then administer an insulting personal attack.

Given your display of ungodly behavior, I think that it's both wise and desirable for me to put you on /ignore until you calm down and stop insulting and personally attacking me.

Goodbye.

Thanks for the myth what it has to do with the thread here, I cannot tell. Unless your intention is to compare the American workers to pigs and that is as offensive as can be. You obviously are still caught up in the cold war theology. You need to join us in the 21st century.

 

[Walkinginfaith]

Interesting how some people have no idea what is going on. These same people thought "free market" was a store of some sort... *sigh*

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Interesting how some people have no idea what is going on. These same people thought "free market" was a store of some sort... *sigh*

I have seen no one in these boards make that error. I'm wondering (nicely) if you can elaborate on which people you are referring to as "these same people," and what that has to do with this thread?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I was in a discussion with someone and they emailed me that story. I don't know if it's a true story or simply non-fiction.

We were discussing if certain species that, once domesticated, can lose the ability to fend for themselves if returned to the wild.

My friend was arguing that peasant, hogs, etc... lose the ability but I was questioning their assertion.

I think that wild hogs, once domesticated, can be turned loose and will fend for themselves. In other words, I wasn't questioning the premise that you can capture wild animals with food but rather the premise that they actually lose the ability to fend for themselves.

As it applies to this discussion, and the reason I posted it here, is that I was wondering if Jimmers thought healthy people who become dependent on government or private social services lose much of their motivation over time to stop seriously striving to become independent again (if they ever were because in cases of generational dependency they never have been).

I don't know what the statistics show regarding this, but I can surmise that people could get used to having their expenses paid for them and that it could affect their motivation to be independent.

I use the word healthy because obviously people who are not healthy need to be on disability and what not. I also do support relevant social safety nets for the elderly, the sick, etc... though I think Jimmers is much more conservative than me on that issue.

Which is why I was asking him. I like to get other people's opinions and reasonings. That's all. Peace.

Oh yes I see it too. Not a good thing at all . Scary if you ask me. Goverment preys on ignorance.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I was in a discussion with someone {snip}We were discussing if certain species that, once domesticated, can lose the ability to fend for themselves if returned to the wild.

Some animals do, but most don't. It takes generations and generations and generations of "taming" before an animal gets used to being fenced in, and often only one generation (or less) for that breeding to be lost. Ever seen feral cats? The kittens of cats who were raised in houses, fed by Purina Cat Chow, brushed, even made to wear a collar, those kittens will run the streets wild and never be caught.

If you accept the theory of evolution, humans are also animals, simply highly evolved animals. So, it would take even longer for us to get "tame" like that -- to accept imprisonment without a fight, and less time for us to remember what freedom feels like.

If you don't accept the theory of evolution, then all bets are off comparing humans to animals. But it is an interesting point for discussion.

Thank you for sharing.... I'm not sure if you were responding to my question. I was actually trying to find out what walkingfaith was implying in his statement:

Interesting how some people have no idea what is going on. These same people thought "free market" was a store of some sort... *sigh*

I was wondering who he was referring to as "these people."

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I can't see your posts GrungeDiva. I grew weary of you constantly arguing with me in that weird analytical-ish style you exercise in which you try hard to be logical and smart but end up being wrong anyways about a great many things while simultaneously refusing to take any correction during the last time I was present here at CC so: you have been on permanent ignore. Adieu.

 

[JimJimmers]

I was in a discussion with someone and they emailed me that story. I don't know if it's a true story or simply non-fiction.

We were discussing if certain species that, once domesticated, can lose the ability to fend for themselves if returned to the wild.

My friend was arguing that peasant, hogs, etc... lose the ability but I was questioning their assertion.

I think that wild hogs, once domesticated, can be turned loose and will fend for themselves. In other words, I wasn't questioning the premise that you can capture wild animals with food but rather the premise that they actually lose the ability to fend for themselves.

As it applies to this discussion, and the reason I posted it here, is that I was wondering if Jimmers thought healthy people who become dependent on government or private social services lose much of their motivation over time to stop seriously striving to become independent again (if they ever were because in cases of generational dependency they never have been).

Not as a blanket rule, but I believe there is plenty of evidence that government interference can almost destroy a person's will to innovate and create. For two examples, I'd name the Bikini Islanders and many of the Native American tribes, particularly in the Southwest.

I use the word healthy because obviously people who are not healthy need to be on disability and what not. I also do support relevant social safety nets for the elderly, the sick, etc... though I think Jimmers is much more conservative than me on that issue.

I don't consider myself a Conservative, and I do support relevant social safety nets for the elderly & disabled etc. However, I firmly believe The Tenth Amendment was put in the Constitution for a reason, and all safety nets should be run by the States and localities, to preserve a Republic that does not serve the Feds, and to cut down on waste and corruption.

As far as the pig story goes, I enjoyed it, but I think it was not so much saying that people lose their will to create if fed, but more it was a recipe on how to enslave a populace. No smart dictator would announce everything he wanted to do at once, he'd start slowly eroding our rights, like the right to NOT pay into a federal pension fund.

One thing I believe would help bring the country back into where the founders intended would be for the Federal Government to tax the states instead of the people. This is rarely talked about, but it would give the states more leverage against unfair federal policies.

 

[djness]

What has happened is that the American worker has over the last decade become one of the most productive of all workers in the world. That is how those profits were generated.

This statement was sarcasm...right? There is no way you could actually have said this with a straight face.

 

[Walkinginfaith]

Yes I wondering the same thing myself. How is it that some people have no idea what is going on in the world ,outside of what obama ads tell them on TV news and internet. If he says things are getting better..... suddenly there is a disconnect from reality...... How can that be?

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Yes I wondering the same thing myself. How is it that some people have no idea what is going on in the world ,outside of what obama ads tell them on TV news and internet. If he says things are getting better..... suddenly there is a disconnect from reality...... How can that be?

It works the same way as it works for those people who only believe what they're told on Fox News. There are plenty of people who don't think for themselves, on both sides of the aisle.

 

[Walkinginfaith]

I can't see your posts GrungeDiva. I grew weary of you constantly arguing with me in that weird analytical-ish style you exercise in which you try hard to be logical and smart but end up being wrong anyways about a great many things while simultaneously refusing to take any correction during the last time I was present here at CC so: you have been on permanent ignore. Adieu.

Once again I agree 100% and I will be doing the same.