Judging What?

[BLC]

When Jesus Christ was judged on the cross for sin, we judge that He died for all, because all have sinned. We also judge that if all have sinned then all need to hear the gospel of Christ for salvation. That salvation is the forgiveness and cleansing of sin, condemnation and wrath being removed, being accepted by the Father in the Beloved, the free gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life and the gift of God's righteousness. All must hear but not all will believe, but all will be judged. It is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment. The believer may be part of the first death, when his body goes into the grave, but he is not part of the second death, which is the lake of fire (Rev 20:6,14,15). Those who do not believe will experience both the first death and second death. The second death is total rejection from God that involves only justice with no mercy and no grace.

This second death has blackness and fire and smoke, it has the worm (man's conscience) that dies not and has great torment. It has the abyss and the bottomless pit and there will be thirst that can not be quenched. There will be endless desires, cravings and lusts that will never be satisfied. There will be great anguish and fear with a magnified sense of hopelessness and being lost forever. Each one will realize and be tormented that they have rejected the grace of the One who was crucified for them to keep them from this condemnation and there is nothing that can be done about it. There will be no peace only intense restlessness and the feeling of complete rejection. They will be tormented for all of eternity in this incredible dwelling of blackness and isolation, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth with no one to deliver them.

This is all true and it will come to pass. This is the reality of those who reject Christ and His mercy and grace. Why are we so afraid to let sinners know about this judgment and the love of God that can keep them from it? Why do we accuse other believers of judging the unbeliever when they have the sentence of death, wrath and condemnation upon them? Why do we criticize other believers that warn of this pending doom for the unbeliever? I am not talking about going around preaching fire and brimstone all the time, but Jesus spoke and warned of this pending doom excessively. This was on the heart of God, in the flesh, when he was on the earth. Does the scriptures teach us to let this mind be in us as it was in Christ Jesus (Phil 2:1)? Then why don't we? Why do we keep it private and hide it like we are afraid to tell it like it is? We are told in Mt 5:16 ...

'Let your light SO SHINE before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven'.

Every word that Jesus Christ spoke, in the flesh, was Spirit and life. There was not a word He spoke that did not let His light shine before men. We are children of light and we are to walk in that light and to speak in the light and bring conviction through the light.

 

[BLC]

The doctrine of the second death is part of our faith but most believers don't want to talk about it. Many believers are afraid to even mention hell or the second death, which is the lake of fire. Every one of us that believe will be sitting in the grandstand of heaven, at the Great White Throne Judgment, when every unbeliever will be judged by the Lamb and sentenced to the second death. We will all be witnesses of the justice of God that is perfect and just. We will see those that we know or whom our paths have crossed, passing before the Lamb to give an account of their life never realizing the reality of the second death. They may even look over to us, as we witness their sentence, and perhaps will say, 'Why didn't you tell me that there was a second death', but the Lamb will say, 'I am sorry, I never knew you, depart from me you worker of iniquity'. All these thoughts will run through our mind saying, 'Why didn't I tell them, why didn't I listen to God', but in the end God will wipe away all our tears and all our memories.

 

[pickles]

I have always loved that scripture in revelations 7:17, and God will wipe away all thier tears. To your point, I find that when it comes to speaking to others about Jesus it is not about wether he is, but battleing old injuries. Most that have crossed my path have rejected the church due to { as they put it, unfair judjement or rejection or a clique atmosfear.} I refur to them as the walking wounded. I realize that their faith should be in Jesus Christ but for that person who seeks Jesus the actions of other christians in their first exsposure to the church is an important witness. I try to witness more through deed , truth, action and love. My hope is that over time they will ask about faith in Jesus. I will admit that I often struggle as to when to speak to them. It has been my expeariance that when pushed they pushed back. I do believe that time is short now and that procrastination may lead to death in faith for many so I hope to gain more courage in this. It is hard though to see the pain in their hearts. If they truelly would accept Jesus that pain would be gone though. I hope that through the love of Jesus and his grace that this will be a powerful witness, One scripture stands out in my mind when it comes to these wounded ones, A bruised reed he will not crush, . I pray that I am doing what Jesus would . God bless, pickles

 

[Sharp]

All these thoughts will run through our mind saying, 'Why didn't I tell them, why didn't I listen to God', but in the end God will wipe away all our tears and all our memories.

That's an interesting point. I've always wondered by what method God will make heaven perfectly blissful for us despite the fact that some of our relatives and friends may be in hell. The only two things I can think of are that God will wipe our memory as you have suggested, or give us some higher form of intelligence which will allow us to be perfectly happy even though our relatives and friends are suffering. Personally, I don't want to lose my memory - I want to remember at least the good times of this life, even if they are nothing in comparison to the good times we will have in heaven.

 

[Grimaldus]

That's an interesting point. I've always wondered by what method God will make heaven perfectly blissful for us despite the fact that some of our relatives and friends may be in hell. The only two things I can think of are that God will wipe our memory as you have suggested, or give us some higher form of intelligence which will allow us to be perfectly happy even though our relatives and friends are suffering. Personally, I don't want to lose my memory - I want to remember at least the good times of this life, even if they are nothing in comparison to the good times we will have in heaven.

How is forgetting (or just not caring about) the ones you love who are going to be tortured for all of eternity so you can live with a clean concious a 'good' thing?

 

[Gavinluke]

Anyone care to explain exactly what could be so terrible as to afford a person eternal torment for a miniscule period of time living as a human being?

 

[phil36]

Hi GavinLuke,

I'm just back here again after a couple of months break. That is a very good question you have put forward.

Its one of Pauls fundamental arguments in Romans that all have sinned (born into sin through Adam) we are enemies of God, objects of wrath because of this sin (check out Romans 1:18-32 . cf, ephesians 2) Thats is why, we hate God, wether we agree to this or not. Paul also states that our unbelief has no excuse, for Gods creation testifies to Him.

Jesus Himself said no one is good when talking to the rich young man.


God in His great mercy and Grace has opened a way for Sinners to come to Him and have a loving relationship with Him, He will make you a new creation, he will give you a new heart, this is all through the work of Christ on the cross.

we all deserve eternal seperation from God, but through His soveriegn mercies, you can come to Him and fulfil what you were created for in Christ Jesus.

Sorry this is very short, its not easy to answer in a logical systematic way in a few short sentences. but I hope this helps Gavin, and maybe someone will expand.

Kind regards

Phil

 

[Gavinluke]

It's a good answer, but being born in to sin doesn't seem to be a flaw of any individual. I would argue that if God created an imperfect being, the burden of fixing it should fall to him and punishment for a flaw he allowed is not only unreasonable...but unfair.

 

[phil36]

LOL I can see where you are coming from. Just think of Human kind as one big biological family and this might help to see the cancerous effect of sin, God has told us throughout what is called ' Redemptive History' How to stay right with Him, it is us who have failed, and even with us still in rebellion to a 'Perfectly Just God' He sends His son to be a Sacrifice so that you can be spared the penalty, if you accept His offer of salvation.

Sorry its short again, but just getting my dinner lol. anyhow I hope that has helped, God is not at fault he created us perfect in His image. Satan has a huge hand in our rebellion along with our own pride, the fact that we think we know best! God knows what is best for you, read the Bible and see for yourself.

kind regards

Phil

 

[Gavinluke]

LOL I can see where you are coming from. Just think of Human kind as one big biological family and this might help to see the cancerous effect of sin, God has told us throughout what is called ' Redemptive History' How to stay right with Him, it is us who have failed, and even with us still in rebellion to a 'Perfectly Just God' He sends His son to be a Sacrifice so that you can be spared the penalty, if you accept His offer of salvation.

Sorry its short again, but just getting my dinner lol. anyhow I hope that has helped, God is not at fault he created us perfect in His image. Satan has a huge hand in our rebellion along with our own pride, the fact that we think we know best! God knows what is best for you, read the Bible and see for yourself.

kind regards

Phil

Again, that's a really nice answer. But the idea of a perfect being creating something imperfect doesn't stand up to scrutiny, in my opinion. It's like an expert football player missing a penalty kick. In that case it can happen due to even the best player being only human. But now take it to the extreme and say it's a perfect footballer. He'd never miss a penalty. It's not possible. You see what i mean?

Also, here's a point. If God made a mistake and needed to repair his relationship with us and the whole of creation after he let sin slip in...why do it by a sacrifice? What required he shed the blood of a human being for it to be fixed? Sounds like ancient paganism, to me.

Enjoy your dinner.

 

[phil36]

Hi Gavin,

Your argument starts with the presuposition that God created something imperfect? He didn't.
Our origanal parents where made perfect, Adam and eve, they made the choice to disobey because they thought they were decieved into thinking they too could be like God. your right in one sense, since the Fall of man God has been repairing our state ever since, even we, as christians are not perfect and hopefully none of us will claim to be so, but we have that assurance that when the day of the Lord comes, we will be perfected. and those who have rejected God as all men do unless they are saved, will spend eternity seperated from the Holy Just and Soveriegn God who created everything.

So you see, God did not create any thing imperfect, Everything was Good... it was pride in oneself that created the Fall. Satan first then us.

Your are suggesting God created man imperfectly when this simply is not true, which in turn leads you to the conclusion that God has to repair His mistake, which is not true either. Its because He loves us he offers salvation, not because we in our sinful pride deserve it, or think that God owes us something.

If your start at the begining of the Bible you will see that God created all things 'Good'

Blood symbolizes Life, we deserve death, in Christ there was a perfect moral sacrifice, he paid the PRICE OF SIN (for the wages of sin is death). he took are penalty so when we are saved and repent of our sin Christs blood covers that sin, the penalty is already paid for. Jesus in His resurection throught he power of the Holy Spirit, gives new life to the believer throught the power of the Holy Spirit. If you have a Bible read Leviticus 16, and you will see the contrast of the old Isrealite way of atonement, the sacrifices only covered the sin, it did not give new life.

Can you see how Gracious God is?

Now my dinners cold lol

Kind regards

Phil

 

[Gavinluke]

Hi Gavin,

Your argument starts with the presuposition that God created something imperfect? He didn't.
Our origanal parents where made perfect, Adam and eve, they made the choice to disobey because they thought they were decieved into thinking they too could be like God. your right in one sense, since the Fall of man God has been repairing our state ever since, even we, as christians are not perfect and hopefully none of us will claim to be so, but we have that assurance that when the day of the Lord comes, we will be perfected. and those who have rejected God as all men do unless they are saved, will spend eternity seperated from the Holy Just and Soveriegn God who created everything.

If they were perfect, they would have made no error. Simple isn't it?

So you see, God did not create any thing imperfect, Everything was Good... it was pride in oneself that created the Fall. Satan first then us.

Again, he creates an imperfect being full of pride?

Your are suggesting God created man imperfectly when this simply is not true, which in turn leads you to the conclusion that God has to repair His mistake, which is not true either. Its because He loves us he offers salvation, not because we in our sinful pride deserve it, or think that God owes us something.

If there was no mistake, there would be no fall. Therefore if creation is flawed, the fault lies with the creator first.

If your start at the begining of the Bible you will see that God created all things 'Good'

Blood symbolizes Life, we deserve death, in Christ there was a perfect moral sacrifice, he paid the PRICE OF SIN (for the wages of sin is death). he took are penalty so when we are saved and repent of our sin Christs blood covers that sin, the penalty is already paid for. Jesus in His resurection throught he power of the Holy Spirit, gives new life to the believer throught the power of the Holy Spirit. If you have a Bible read Leviticus 16, and you will see the contrast of the old Isrealite way of atonement, the sacrifices only covered the sin, it did not give new life.

Can you see how Gracious God is?

Now my dinners cold lol

Kind regards

Phil

I don't see anything gracious in allowing a good man to die to pay for a mistake that a supposedly divine being made, no. Sorry about the dinner though!

 

[phil36]

as I said Gavin your starting point to your argument that God created imperfectly?

He designed humans to have a relationship with himself. so is man/woman designed like robots without a choice would that make a relationship? No, of course not. so you see they were still made perfectly in His image when I say image I dont mean they are like Gods. but never the less they were created good.

So the God-man (Jesus) did not die for you and me because God made a mistake, humans made the mistake of thinking they could be like God, albiet they wee subtley decieved by satan, but they still made that choice.

God would have every right to have destroyed them there and then but in His love he did not, but that relationship with God, for man has never been the same, unless saved, we still are not perfect once saved but we will be.

God loves you Gavin, more thanyou could ever imagine, iyou will either reject Him or recieve Him.


kind regards

Phil

 

[Gavinluke]

as I said Gavin your starting point to your argument that God created imperfectly?

He designed humans to have a relationship with himself. so is man/woman designed like robots without a choice would that make a relationship? No, of course not. so you see they were still made perfectly in His image when I say image I dont mean they are like Gods. but never the less they were created good.

So the God-man (Jesus) did not die for you and me because God made a mistake, humans made the mistake of thinking they could be like God, albiet they wee subtley decieved by satan, but they still made that choice.

God would have every right to have destroyed them there and then but in His love he did not, but that relationship with God, for man has never been the same, unless saved, we still are not perfect once saved but we will be.

God loves you Gavin, more thanyou could ever imagine, iyou will either reject Him or recieve Him.


kind regards

Phil

Again your argument doesn't really hold. Let's say for the sake of argument that adding choice to the equation means human beings need to be imperfect. If so, i can well understand he judge us on our own individual failings. But on what some distant ancestors did? Justify that if you can. Also, even if we did fail to live up to his expectations, he must surely accept we were made with this inbuilt flaw...does that really justify eternal punishment for the actions of a few decades of human life? Justify that if you can, also.

If God is so loving, please explain Hell.

 

[phil36]

Hi Gavin,

You presuposition is that humans were created 'flawed' or 'imperfect' with the implication that God, either is not perfect Himself or made a mistake somewhere along the line.

Where do you get this notion from? It would have to be a man made thought? I believe the Bible to be truth from God our creator, you may or may not.

From your point of view Hell doesn't make much sense from a loving God, but a sI have said from a biblical perspective it is truth wether we like it or not that is fact again wether we like it or not.

* Your starting point is that God made man imperfect.

The Bible says that Gods creation was Good God was pleased with it. He is the creator after all. (perfect for what it was designed for)

*If man was imperfect why should he be held responsible?

As above man was not made imperfect or flawed, it was with mans choice that sin distorted this goodness the relationship between man and his creator. this does not show as you are suggesting that God made man flawed. He did not make us like robots, as I have stated above, you can not have a loving relationship if you force someone! satan decieved Adam and Eve, into thinking they could be like God, this still does not mean a creative flaw, it shows hows humans of their own choice rebelled against God as you and I have done and everyone else on this site have done.

Now here is the love, we rebelled against our creator, basically, telling Him we don't want or need Him etc etc. but in His love God still provided a way into His presence for us, when in Fact as the creator He could have just wiped us out altogehter.. After all as creator he would have the right to do that wouldn't He?

Secondly, Although God is a God of Love, He is also a God who will judge with wrath upon those who still rebel agaisnt Him, His wrath has to be delt with, for those who are saved it has been through Jesus Christ. for those who still reject God, well on their own heads be it.

I would truly love for all mankind to come to their saviour with repentance, but if they don't they only have themselves to blame... not God.



If you argue from the position that God created everything with imperfectio, then you are making in your own mind a God who is not the God of the Bible ... that is Idolatry a sin..

But you must be searching, or else you would not be asking, and I pray with Love for you to find the greatest treasure of the created universe... Jeusu Christ, the Saviour of the world John 3:16

With Love in Christ

Phil

 

[Gavinluke]

Hi Gavin,

You presuposition is that humans were created 'flawed' or 'imperfect' with the implication that God, either is not perfect Himself or made a mistake somewhere along the line.

Where do you get this notion from? It would have to be a man made thought? I believe the Bible to be truth from God our creator, you may or may not.

If it is true and all from God, then why does it have imperfections within it? Why so many contradictions?

From your point of view Hell doesn't make much sense from a loving God, but a sI have said from a biblical perspective it is truth wether we like it or not that is fact again wether we like it or not.

Why is it true though? Why is it needed?

* Your starting point is that God made man imperfect.

The Bible says that Gods creation was Good God was pleased with it. He is the creator after all. (perfect for what it was designed for)

*If man was imperfect why should he be held responsible?

As above man was not made imperfect or flawed, it was with mans choice that sin distorted this goodness the relationship between man and his creator. this does not show as you are suggesting that God made man flawed. He did not make us like robots, as I have stated above, you can not have a loving relationship if you force someone! satan decieved Adam and Eve, into thinking they could be like God, this still does not mean a creative flaw, it shows hows humans of their own choice rebelled against God as you and I have done and everyone else on this site have done.

How have i rebelled against God? Surely that requires a conscious decision to do so? I don't believe there is a God, so how could i rebel against something i put no belief in?

Now here is the love, we rebelled against our creator, basically, telling Him we don't want or need Him etc etc. but in His love God still provided a way into His presence for us, when in Fact as the creator He could have just wiped us out altogehter.. After all as creator he would have the right to do that wouldn't He?

I didn't. And exactly why didn't he simply start again, or give us another chance within a different reality? Place us in Heaven to reconsider or discuss and learn...why Hell?

Secondly, Although God is a God of Love, He is also a God who will judge with wrath upon those who still rebel agaisnt Him, His wrath has to be delt with, for those who are saved it has been through Jesus Christ. for those who still reject God, well on their own heads be it.

So he is petty?

I would truly love for all mankind to come to their saviour with repentance, but if they don't they only have themselves to blame... not God.

Is being honest a fault worthy of ****ation? Many honestly don't believe in God. Why is this an act of evil?

If you argue from the position that God created everything with imperfectio, then you are making in your own mind a God who is not the God of the Bible ... that is Idolatry a sin..

But you must be searching, or else you would not be asking, and I pray with Love for you to find the greatest treasure of the created universe... Jeusu Christ, the Saviour of the world John 3:16

With Love in Christ

Phil

Clearly the God of the Bible is not a perfect creator, i agree. I also find the notion that Jesus is divine incorrect and don't accept your love in his name, but thanks for the thought.

 

[Baptistrw]

Gavin, may God have mercy on your soul. We'll pray for you.

 

[Sharp]

How is forgetting (or just not caring about) the ones you love who are going to be tortured for all of eternity so you can live with a clean concious a 'good' thing?

Hey Grim

Its not about forgetting about relatives in hell so we can have a clean conscience. And nothing at all is good about people being tortured in hell. But that's the way it will be. People who don't repent will be in hell. Heaven will be perfect, so I'm assuming God will do something to us to make us not think about bad things. How He will do that I have no idea, but I know we will have new heavenly bodies and minds that can do what our earthly bodies and minds can not. Maybe we will have some sort of higher knowledge that will enable us to fully understand the fairness of God's judgement.

 

[Grimaldus]

Hey Grim

Its not about forgetting about relatives in hell so we can have a clean conscience. And nothing at all is good about people being tortured in hell. But that's the way it will be. People who don't repent will be in hell. Heaven will be perfect, so I'm assuming God will do something to us to make us not think about bad things. How He will do that I have no idea, but I know we will have new heavenly bodies and minds that can do what our earthly bodies and minds can not. Maybe we will have some sort of higher knowledge that will enable us to fully understand the fairness of God's judgement.

By that theory all the world's problems could be solved by just walling off any evil-doer behind a giant wall, the people inside which could only hear what they wanted to hear, and anyone who later wronged would be banished. Just because you don't think about something doesn't make it any better. On a whole other topic, why (if god is almighty) would he need hell in the first place, he could destroy hell and the devil (or turn them into good beings) save the entire world with a global display of his existence, and everyone would be happy.

 

[Sharp]

Well, I don't know what we will and won't know in heaven. I was just speculating.

As to why God created hell, its for people who have sinned against Him. He created people for his own pleasure, and many have rebelled against Him. Think about it this way, if you were God and you created the world, and people did exactly the opposite of what you intended them to do, and even though you forgave them, they didn't even want to know you or know about you, wouldn't you punish them? I know no-one asked to be created, and people may say "Well, I'd rather never have been born, I never wanted any of this...why should I be punished by a God who created me when I didn't even ask to be created?". The fact is, all of us were created by God, and God can do what He wants, because He is God.