Is It Okay For a Non-Believer To Pick a Few Brains?

[livvit]

Thank you all for having me.

I must first confess that I am not a Christian, though I am not here to de-convert or mock anybody. I am currently writing an essay on epistemology, the first chapter of which deals with religion, the first section dealing specifically with Christianity. My goal is to, above all, be respectful and friendly while trying to engage those of you who are willing into some deep, meaningful discussion and hopefully round-out some beliefs. I do not plan to quote any of you directly without your consent, nor do I intend to be unfair or to misrepresent your positions.

A little about me:

I was raised Christian but became militantly atheist in my late teens. I was brought back to Christianity via a profound emotional experience in my early twenties, and came to discover that a lot of what I was taught growing up was wrong. I studied Christianity in depth and came to embrace Calvinism and Reformed theology, focusing the bulk of my studies, possibly because of my atheistic past, on apologetics. I studied the giants of the faith such as Lewis, Van Til, Augustine, Shaeffer, the A.W.’s both Pink and Tozer, and the like.

In my later twenties I began to question the foundations of what I believed, and started looking around at the big picture, at where I was standing, and against who and what I was standing in order to defend my Christianity intellectually. I now find the evidence for Christianity insufficient and around it I no longer base my life.

But I am also not an atheist, as I find the evidence for atheism to be insufficient. I find both world views to be too reductionistic and rigid. I am an agnostic who leans toward theism (number 3 in Dawkins’ spectrum), though I find the evidence overwhelming that the world’s religions are manmade. I welcome the opportunity to expound upon these topics as well as others as they may arise and I hope I will find some who will be willing to do the same.

Thanks.

 

[riabrooks]

I'm open to questions if it will help.

 

[lookwhatthelordhasdone]

I as well, will answer to the best of my ability.

 

[livvit]

I'm open to questions if it will help.

Okay. What would you say is the most important thing Christianity says about God? What is the biggest comfort for humanity?

 

[livvit]

I as well, will answer to the best of my ability.

The above question applies to you as well.

 

[JimJimmers]

Welcome to CC Livvit! I'd say the answer to that question is that God is love.

 

[lookwhatthelordhasdone]

Yes, I agree.


I'd also like to add this.

2 Corinthians 4: 18
We fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.


John 20: 25- 31
25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[Jennyyyyy]

We should talk.

I was baptized catholic, not raised in any particular religious fashion, attending catholic school all my life but was never really religious. I picked up my faith a few years back, I was about 20, I was battling some tough times (and the concept of original sin). Then at 21, I started to question, like you, the foundations of my faith, because of the questions that remained unanswered. So now, I'm starting over- because I think I do believe in God. I want to answer these questions: how and if we can come to 'know' God's existence, or if all we can have in this case is justified belief, what kind of justification is required to defend the belief. I hope I made sense.

I major in philosophy, and I'm also currently taking an epistemology class at U of T. I'm curious to know what your topic is, I'd be more than happy to bounce around ideas with you!

 

[lookwhatthelordhasdone]

Oh, I don't question at all. My faith is strong and I know the Lord is my Savior without a doubt in my mind. He has brought me through too much for me to question my faith in him in any way. He is my father and dwells within me every day. My foundation will not be moved, and my belief in Jesus Christ will not be shaken.
I think it's great you're wanting to find God again. He's been waiting for you with open arms and that makes me rejoice that you're reaching out to him!

I know the questions that are unanswered are for good reason. God knows the plan and my path, and I happily let him take the wheel in my life. When we start making decisions for ourselves and what we think is 'best', that's when we stray from the path and become lost.

1 Corinthians 3:18
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

Everyone 'knows' God, but it's the choice of each and every individual to want to have a relationship with him. Do we want to strive to be like him? Keep his commandments? Read his word?

Don't worry about defending your belief. Anything you need to say does not need to come from your own thoughts and reasoning. The only way to speak is through the Bible and what it says. Even when Jesus was tempted by Satan, he only quoted the Bible.


Matthew 4:1-11
4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

The time to talk about Jesus with someone else who does not believe is when they are wanting to learn and willing to listen. When you are defending yourself and the person is not open to it, then there's no reason to try to persuade them. That's what Jesus did. He told you and then he let you decide. He didn't continue to shove it down your throat if you didn't want to believe, but for the ones who did, he taught them.


*edit*

I didn't realize the person above me was not the person who started the thread. Sorry! I'll still leave this up though, for someone to read. Ha ha! That's what I get for scanning posts.

 

[Jennyyyyy]

It's ok, interesting post.

I've always found my 'problem' (for lack of better word) to be with the fact that most Christians refrain from relying on reason and rationality to explain and justify their belief. I think it is one of our greatest mental faculties, if indeed bestowed upon us by God.

But, my interests lies in argumentation, justification, not necessarily hardcore scientific evidence, but the best case for the belief. As in, the best 'proof' for the belief.

So, wouldn't you want to justify your belief? Wouldn't you want to be able to defend it to the best of your ability? Even if I were an atheist, which I'm not, I would still want to be able to defend my view against that of a theist.

I'm interested not so much in what's written in the bible,(although, beautiful) solely because it's claimed to be divinely inspired, and without that solid case for God's existence, one cannot rely on the Bible's being divinely inspired.

Although, I heard the argument made somewhere that God creates belief in God. And somewhere else that belief in God is innate. I want to say that's what Descartes proof relies on, but it's slipped my mind. As of right now, these are the best cases I know of.

 

[framester]

Welcome to CC. I'm sure there are some brains here you can pick.

 

[lookwhatthelordhasdone]

I won't defend why I believe the way I do, because I just do. That's my personal choice and I don't have to explain it to anyone. Now, if someone wants to know about Christ or something in the Bible, I would be more than willing to discuss.

I just don't see the reason in trying to defend my belief. That's like trying to defend why I wear jeans instead of dresses or sandals instead of tennis shoes.
I can't show you what I see, make you feel what I feel. You have to experience it for yourself. I think that's the reason so many people struggle to keep their faith in God, because it is based on faith. Not by science, or man's proof, or anything else. Either you believe what the Bible says or you don't.

 

[Jennyyyyy]

I'm so sorry for the long post, I hope this is what you were looking for:

I would say the most important thing Christianity says about God- well it's a multitude

1.) that He exists, is all-loving, ever -present, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal. He is perfectly good, just, and righteous, and most importantly (I think) merciful.
2.)That He created the Universe, and the Heavens, and humanity in his image
3.)That He guides us, according to his plan- He has an individualized plan for every one of us on earth, and tries to keep us from straying.

These are his characteristics, or what Christians attribute to him. You can't really say it's one 'thing' in particular, because all of these things work in conjunction.

To answer who He is, you'd also have to consider what He does…

The biggest comfort to humanity- well
1.)God created what He created for us, and we are the pinnacle of His creation
2.)There is someone always looking out for you, watching your back, who wants you to succeed. (which means different things for everyone)
3.)There is someone who will listen to you, loves you unconditionally, so long as you embrace him.
4.)Death is not the end of life, and because God is good, the afterlife will be good. You can say your eternity has already started, and death is just kind of like, a transitional rite of passage into the next stage.

I may have missed some, but these are what I've managed to compile over the years of talking to people of many denominations of Christianity.

 

[JimJimmers]

It's ok, interesting post.

I've always found my 'problem' (for lack of better word) to be with the fact that most Christians refrain from relying on reason and rationality to explain and justify their belief. I think it is one of our greatest mental faculties, if indeed bestowed upon us by God.

But, my interests lies in argumentation, justification, not necessarily hardcore scientific evidence, but the best case for the belief. As in, the best 'proof' for the belief.

So, wouldn't you want to justify your belief? Wouldn't you want to be able to defend it to the best of your ability? Even if I were an atheist, which I'm not, I would still want to be able to defend my view against that of a theist.

I'm interested not so much in what's written in the bible,(although, beautiful) solely because it's claimed to be divinely inspired, and without that solid case for God's existence, one cannot rely on the Bible's being divinely inspired.

Although, I heard the argument made somewhere that God creates belief in God. And somewhere else that belief in God is innate. I want to say that's what Descartes proof relies on, but it's slipped my mind. As of right now, these are the best cases I know of.

Hi Jenny! Just wanted to add something, I think a lot of people are not wired that way, to want to explain everything with logic and reason. For some people, if they tried to explain and prove that they were in love with someone, would just totally ruin it for them. I think it's the same with many theists.

There are many of us who do like the whole logic and reason angle though, although I think humans are incapable of perfect logic and reason.

Anyway, nice to meet you, hope you enjoy it here! -JIM

 

[lookwhatthelordhasdone]

Now when I say 'I won't defend why I believe what I do', I mean by my own logic and reasoning. I use God's logic and reasoning, a.k.a. the Bible.

Like I said in my earlier post, even when Jesus was tempted by Satan, he quoted the Bible. That's what I use and its the only thing I need.
My way of thinking and reasoning is flawed, just like everyone else. If I use that, instead of the Bible, then I'm not doing any justice. All of the answers for any question in life is in that book.


Anyhow, I hope the questions you have can be answered! God bless.

 

[riabrooks]

Okay. What would you say is the most important thing Christianity says about God? What is the biggest comfort for humanity?

Well you sure got alot of responses I would say simply the most important thing Christianity says about God is John 3:16. An obvious answer. Its the foundation of our faith.

Our God, coming to earth as a man, dying as a sacrifice and payment for our sins, and rising again.
That verse, and the whole story of Jesus Christ, says God loves us; He cares for us. It says He is good and takes care of us. It says everything there is to say about God.

There's no greater comfort for humanity than knowing we are able to be forgiven and have an eternity to live and love our Creator, if only we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, accepting it as truth.

 

[PopClick]

I'd say the answer to that question is that God is love.

First thing I thought of, too. I agree.

P.S. Welcome livvit, I hope you find what you're looking for.

 

[surrenderedheart]

First of all, whether or not someone believes the Bible does not change the truth of God's word. God has always been and will always be and one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. God believes in you and I pray that He reveals the truth to you as only He can do before you take your last breath and land in eternity.

 

[riabrooks]

Although, based on the different answers, the bible also tells Christians to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

I don't think there's just one answer.
Different things are important to different people with different lives in different circumstances.
For me it is forgiveness, for other believers it's love, for another its mercy, grace, etc.

It depends on who you talk to.

 

[livvit]

I certainly have gotten a lot of responses, and I am grateful. I'd like to respond to lookwhatthelordhasdone first, if I may.

First of all...

I think it's great you're wanting to find God again.

…this isn't exactly what I am doing here.

Oh, I don't question at all. My faith is strong and I know the Lord is my Savior without a doubt in my mind. He has brought me through too much for me to question my faith in him in any way. He is my father and dwells within me every day. My foundation will not be moved, and my belief in Jesus Christ will not be shaken.
I think it's great you're wanting to find God again. He's been waiting for you with open arms and that makes me rejoice that you're reaching out to him!

I know the questions that are unanswered are for good reason. God knows the plan and my path, and I happily let him take the wheel in my life. When we start making decisions for ourselves and what we think is 'best', that's when we stray from the path and become lost.

1 Corinthians 3:18
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

Everyone 'knows' God, but it's the choice of each and every individual to want to have a relationship with him. Do we want to strive to be like him? Keep his commandments? Read his word?

Don't worry about defending your belief. Anything you need to say does not need to come from your own thoughts and reasoning. The only way to speak is through the Bible and what it says. Even when Jesus was tempted by Satan, he only quoted the Bible.


Matthew 4:1-11
4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

The time to talk about Jesus with someone else who does not believe is when they are wanting to learn and willing to listen. When you are defending yourself and the person is not open to it, then there's no reason to try to persuade them. That's what Jesus did. He told you and then he let you decide. He didn't continue to shove it down your throat if you didn't want to believe, but for the ones who did, he taught them.


*edit*

I didn't realize the person above me was not the person who started the thread. Sorry! I'll still leave this up though, for someone to read. Ha ha! That's what I get for scanning posts.

I really appreciate your willingness to respond.

What you are positing here is the most common form of Christian defense - emotion and sentimentality. This seems to merely be a deeply ingrained, sentimental, psychological attachment. How such bonds are formed and maintained at all costs and against all evidence, and even why you are explaining such things so sweetly and warmly, can be explained through evolutionary psychology. I'll not go into that. As I said, I'm not here to de-convert anyone.

It is a little disappointing to see logic and reason tossed aside so effortlessly and unapologetically, especially when the very Bible you posit advocates other, more hardened forms of evidence.

Paul says to be ready to give a defense, or a reason, for the belief that you have. At the Areopagus he did not tell the Epicurean Greeks what he felt in his heart, he reasoned with them using their own poets and external evidences. He tells Governor Agrippa of Cyprus that what he believes can be investigated and either disproved or corroborated.

In fact, none of the disciples claimed internal, emotional reasons for what they believed, or that they didn't have to defend what they believed to anyone. On the contrary, they pointed to supposed events in space and time and pointed to flesh and blood people who could verify these events. Everything that you have stated could be stated by any other manmade religion - none of it separates Christianity from the pack (just substitute the Bible for any other religious text).

This touches a bit on what Jenny was saying as well - it is completely fair for non-believers to require you to go beyond the Bible and your emotions if they are to listen to anything you say. Intellectual non-believers will pick this argument apart and leave it by the side of the road. That may not mean much to you, but it won't mean much to them either. You have, in essence, provided no reason to believe.

You've been very pleasant and I again want to thank you for you eagerness, but if I may, I'd like to offer you a challenge that may get you to go in the direction of seeking extra-Biblical evidence for your belief (it's okay to do that):

1: Many atheists and other non-believers will say that Jesus never existed. Look into their arguments and into the historical evidence that shows that he most likely did exist (which is what I believe). This would lead you into the time and place where the events you believe happened… happened. This is where the rubber either meets the road, or vanishes into thin air.

2: Christianity is the only major religion that is supposedly based on a series of historical events that can be investigated scientifically - that's one of the reasons I enjoyed the apologetic side of it and why I still, to certain extent, like the religion. One might find their faith strengthened by discovering objective facts about their religion.

I know you'll probably enter this endeavor seeking only to reinforce what you already believe, but that's okay. At least it's a start.