No Such Thing As Free Will!

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C

cfultz3

Guest
#101
#101
RickShafer said:
Listen, It goes back to first cause.
No one has it within themselves to follow God out of their own freewill. -- There are those who were righteous by the Law. Also, one chooses to turn around to God when he hearkens to His Voice. Even Paul chose to become an apostle when he was faced with Jesus. He freely believed and choose to be converted.

If they did, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die. -- Jesus died so that we could choose faith as the means of justification.

Even the act of repentance is a gift. -- a soul remorseful in his deeds, turns to God looking for forgiveness of his rebellion. Kiss the hand of the Son while He is yet a little kindled and the Son sets upon the Throne of Mercy.

In our flesh(carnal mind), dwells no good thing. -- yes

Now, that spiritual mind Christ indwells His followers with,
is that a gift or is it their own volition? -- when we die to the flesh, we become spiritual and are led by His Spirit. It is those who have been sanctified who has the mind of Christ, the wisdom and knowledge from God. Indeed, a gift bestrowed upon the children.

None are righteous, no not one. --correct, we all have sinned.

And faith is a gift. -- yes, that which I am pesuaded of is a gift from the Holy Spirit, seeing that He is the Spirit of Truth.

So don't take it upon yourself that you are acting out of your own freewill,if that very faith you claim is a gift. -- Am I not given the choose to decide whom shall be the lord of my soul? Was Noah's or Abraham's confidence they placed in God a gift from Him, or did they TRUST Him. In this I praise God, 'O LORD, my God, in you I trust. Perserve me my God, because I have placed my trust in you. His ways is perfect, His Word is tried. He is a buckler to me because I trust in Him.

I do not know if you know but there are two words for faith. One is that which you have been persuaded of by God to be the Truth. The other is defined as placing confidence in someone or something. Indeed, I am persuaded that God's way is the best way Home. Therefore, I place confidence in the Son as God's only Way.

This is pride, and it is sin. -- I am sorry you feel that way. If the Lord is my God and He does not convince me othewise, then I only stand accountable to Him. Until the Lord has told me that I am now a robot, I will continue to believe my faith is from my heart and true, not cohersed.

Listen, I've lived it on both sides and I've seen it firsthand.
The very act of believing in the One whom the Father has sent is a gift(grace); lest any man should boast. -- and as I look upon the Light, from my soul it is echoed, 'Thank you for leading me by your Spirit of Truth to be persuaded that Christ alone is the Way.' Now that I have been convinced, I will place my confidence in Him, trusting that He will do what He has said He will do and did what He said He did.
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RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#102
Sep 8, 2012
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#102
I point you to the verses concerning election: Romans 9:11;11:5,7,28. I Thess 1:4; II Tim. 2:10.
The term elected or 'the election' means, 'chosen'.
Also the term 'predestinate' - Rom 8:29,30. And 'predestination' - Eph. 1:5;1:11.

'Whom He did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son..."
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified. Romans 8:29pp,30.

It didn't say someHe predestinated He called.- (if they acted to save themselves)
Neither does it say of those He called some were justified. -(if they acted to justify themselves)
Nor does it say of those He justified some He glorified. - (if they were good enough to glorify themselves)

I Cor. 1:30 -" But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus who of God is made unto us wisdom(called), and righteousness(justification), and sanctification, and redemption(glorification)."

It looks as if God is doing all the work.
Finishing what He started, being the master - (moreover the good master).

Notice how God is the one doing it?
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#103
#103
RickShafer said:
I point you to the verses concerning election: Romans 9:11;11:5,7,28. I Thess 1:4; II Tim. 2:10.
The term elected or 'the election' means, 'chosen'.
Also the term 'predestinate' - Rom 8:29,30. And 'predestination' - Eph. 1:5;1:11.

'Whom He did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son..."
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified. Romans 8:29pp,30.

It didn't say someHe predestinated He called.- (if they acted to save themselves)
Neither does it say of those He called some were justified. -(if they acted to justify themselves)
Nor does it say of those He justified some He glorified. - (if they were good enough to glorify themselves)

I Cor. 1:30 -" But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus who of God is made unto us wisdom(called), and righteousness(justification), and sanctification, and redemption(glorification)."

It looks as if God is doing all the work.
Finishing what He started, being the master - (moreover the good master).

Notice how God is the one doing it?
Click to expand...
Noticed that I said the same thing?
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#104
Sep 8, 2012
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#104
No I didn't.
Because you didn't say it.
You said "some were righteous under the law".
Also you said Noah and Abraham were co-helpers in their redemption because they trusted God.
This 'trust' IS faith.
The trust was part of the gift of faith.
Trust and faith are the same thing.
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#105
Sep 8, 2012
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#105
Cfultz, you said - "there are those who were righteous under the law".

Just who did you mean?

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:23
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#106
#106
RickShafer said:
No I didn't.
Because you didn't say it.
You said "some were righteous under the law".
Also you said Noah and Abraham were co-helpers in their redemption because they trusted God.
This 'trust' IS faith.
The trust was part of the gift of faith.
Trust and faith are the same thing.
Click to expand...
From post 98
If it is us then it is no more grace. -- the only part a man has to offer is a willingness to follow Jesus. God does EVERYTHING else. But without a willingness, God allows one to walk away from fellowship with Him. A man is not credited with his salvation, but is rewarded for obedience. Salvation is by faith alone, but what value does it have when one is not led by God (works in conjunction with His Spirit)?

I think you mixed my mentioning of 'co-helpers' and 'trust' together. We are to be co-workers of the Spirit, aka: workers of Christ. I have learned a lot from a word study of 'trust' from Scripture. Especially from Psalms.

Yes 'trust' is 'faith' and they both mean to place condifience in.
It is persuadion (moral conviction (belief:faith)) from the Spirit of Truth that we are convinced of the Truth and by such, we do place our condifence (trust: have faith in) in the Son.

I would not tell you that there are two words for faith in the KJV if it was not true. The Spirit of Truth convinces us of Truth. Because of that conviction we place our trust in the One the Spirit is pointing to: the Christ.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#107
#107
RickShafer said:
Cfultz, you said - "there are those who were righteous under the law".

Just who did you mean?

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:23
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There were some (a list is given somewhere in the new Testament) of the Law who had their righteousness from the Law, but yet were never justified from the decree attached to the end of the Law: they all died under the Law. But nevertheless, righteousness was obtained by obedience to the Law. If one offended in the Law and did their sacrifice offering, then that one stood righteous before God. In the same way as if one broke cival law and did their time, they then stand righteous with the Law.

If this does not clarify, I did a thread named : http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ld-way-salvation-faith-new-way-salvation.html (link)
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#109
#109
RickShafer said:
Are you talking about Hebrews 11?
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I don't remember exactely where, but give me some time and I will look it up

But for now, I am copying and pasting this from that thread:

Scripture mentions that some of those in the Old Testament did keep the Law:
  • Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you: (Josh. 22:2)
  • And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so. (Judg. 2:17)
  • David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes: (1 Kings 11:34)
  • For he clave to the LORD, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses. (2 Kings 18:6)
  • I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law. (Psa. 119:55)
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#110
Sep 8, 2012
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#110
That's the only list in the N.T. of O.T. believers.
And that is known as the "hall of faith" by theologians.
Because the tern faith is found 22 times in it.(Faithful once).
The term "Law" or "righteousness of the Law" is never mentioned.
So if this is your list of those who fulfilled the righteousness of the Law,
you are mistaken.
This is the only list of O.T. saints in the N.T. outside of Stephen's defense in the book of Acts.(Which was a history of the nation of Israel). But it never mentions Moses(who killed a man), or Abraham(who slept with Hagar), or David(who slept with Bathsheba) - as fulfilling the righteousness of God's law.

Here again, you have mistaken the hall of faith for the hall of people who upheld God's law. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I'll say it again,
"all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:26
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#111
#111
Paul was another example (copy and paste)

Further into Romans, Paul speaks about the righteousness which the law could provide,
  • For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. (Rom. 10:5)
He even says that he was blameless concerning keeping the law in Phil 3:6-9.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#112
#112
But to get to what I am saying,

they who were faithful under the Law went to Abraham's Bosom to await their Savior.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#113
#113
RickShafer said:
That's the only list in the N.T. of O.T. believers.
And that is known as the "hall of faith" by theologians.
Because the tern faith is found 22 times in it.(Faithful once).
The term "Law" or "righteousness of the Law" is never mentioned.
So if this is your list of those who fulfilled the righteousness of the Law,
you are mistaken.
This is the only list of O.T. saints in the N.T. outside of Stephen's defense in the book of Acts.(Which was a history of the nation of Israel). But it never mentions Moses(who killed a man), or Abraham(who slept with Hagar), or David(who slept with Bathsheba) - as fulfilling the righteousness of God's law.

Here again, you have mistaken the hall of faith for the hall of people who upheld God's law. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I'll say it again,
"all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:26
Click to expand...
would you be so kind as to go and read that thread some. There is a mention of those who were faithful to the Law mentioned in the New Testament. I just do not remember where. But I am sure someone will come along and tell us or it perhaps could be found in that thread.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
#114
#114
jimmydiggs said:
This post has 34 mentions of "Free Will".

All other posts between 41 and 81, have 66 mentions including the thread title that is attached to each post.

View attachment 4602

The mouth is the overflow of the heart. It would seem from skimming through your post, you highly value autonomy from God.
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Ahhh, jimdig, is this a 'challenge?'

Shouldn't be. You should just take the whole of the 100 verses listed and ask God to 'pie' it into a divided whole for you. ;)


Good to be objective is it not, no?
------
Rick, who is making cee's decisions for Him, you, jimdig, seemingly, say here that cee can not make His own decisions, how does 'faith' move if no choices of 'master,' et al, can't be made by man?

Who thinx for cee? And, I assume, you mean, too, everyone else on planet earth can't think to be a child of God or a child of the rebellion? How does the Holy Spirit 'help' the believer, who came in the absence of Jesus on earth, fit into this picture , if we are only suppose to KNOW we are 'chosen' and 'predestined,' is there any fear out there for those wondering if they are straddling that salvation (being saved or not) fence??

Maybe q good question to ask is: Who saves you?

Or, if not a 'Who,' then, maybe, a better Q is: What saves you?

What must we do to be saved?


----hmmm, also, can't serve two masters, Scripture states. What about the word : either .

Doesn't 'either' implicate one of making a choice ?

Luke 16:13 "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate ... ... "A servant cannot serve two masters. He will hate the first master and love the second, or he will be devoted to the first and despise the second. ... //bible.cc/luke/16-13.htm - 17k

Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate ... ... "No one can serve two masters, because either he will hate one and love the other, or be loyal to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and riches ... //bible.cc/matthew/6-24.htm - 17k

Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better ...

-----()-----jimdig, the word 'will' in Scripture listed so many times , 34 con free will and 66 pro, LOL, just messing' with ya on those numbers, like, actually quintuple those #s, likely, for 'will' references in Scripture. You are the sem. or bible student, go! :) Find the count.

But, yeah , does the word 'free' need to be attached to 'will' in order for you to grasp the CONTEXT of a verse, jd???
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#115
Sep 8, 2012
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#115
I don't remember exactely where, but give me some time and I will look it up

But for now, I am copying and pasting this from that thread:

Scripture mentions that some of those in the Old Testament did keep the Law:

Cfultz - Black and Red RickShafer - Blue

  • Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you: (Josh. 22:2) - This was to the three tribes that got their inheritance on the side of the Jordan river that Israel first conquered. Instead of staying put , they kept fighting with Israel for the promised land on the other side of Jordan. - "Ye have not left your brethren these many days unto this day, but have kept the charge of the commandment of the Lord your God." - Joshua 22:3
  • This is what is meant by them " obeying my voice in all that I have commanded you".
  • And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so. (Judg. 2:17) -
  • Which fathers were these? The one's whose bones bleached in the desert because of their unbelief? (Two men who were adults when they left Egypt entered the promised land - out of 400,000 to 600,000. - Joshua and Caleb).
  • David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes: (1 Kings 11:34) - (See the numbering of the people, and Uriah's wife.)
  • For he clave to the LORD, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses. (2 Kings 18:6) - (This verse is concerning Hezekiah, who showed Babylonian princes all the riches of Israel after he was given fifteen more years to live. This was such a sin that the prophet Elijah told him everything he showed them would be taken by them.) II Kings 20:14-18.
  • I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law. (Psa. 119:55) - (Whoever wrote this, probably David, hardly claims perfection according to the Law .)
As you can see, these verses DO NOT speak of people righteous under the Law.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#116
#116
Hi Rick,

I just did a word search on 'righteousness' and there are 198 verses and a vast majority of them concerns one's righteousness. Point being, as that thread also states, people obtained their righteousness through obedience to the Law. And if they were to have broken a law, then they had a sacrifce to make them right again. There are mentions of people who obey the Law and completely. I really do not wish to get into this discussion at the moment. Please simply read a bit of that thread, it is full of verses. Thank you for your patience with me.
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#117
Sep 8, 2012
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#117
I don't have to go back and see what someone claimed Chris, because I know it's not there,(In the Bible).
No one fulfilled the law of righteousness, no not one.
(Except Jesus)
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#118
#118
RickShafer said:
I don't have to go back and see what someone claimed Chris, because I know it's not there,(In the Bible).
No one fulfilled the law of righteousness, no not one.
(Except Jesus)
Click to expand...
as you wish.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#119
#119
cfultz3 said:
would you be so kind as to go and read that thread some. There is a mention of those who were faithful to the Law mentioned in the New Testament. I just do not remember where. But I am sure someone will come along and tell us or it perhaps could be found in that thread.
Click to expand...

Page 393 "Gullivers Travels" second edition
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
#120
#120
RickShafer said:
I don't have to go back and see what someone claimed Chris, because I know it's not there,(In the Bible).
No one fulfilled the law of righteousness, no not one.
(Except Jesus)
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we are UNDER Christ's Law , and, though we ALL fail, with Him leading us we have the CHOICE not to fail :) does this mean we won't sin? Of course not, we are FLESH ,but we are covered flesh, too, IF we believe in Jesus as our personal Saviour, I believe! :) , for one who is regenerated, or, 'born again,' is covered by the blood of Jesus. By choosing Christ, Rick, we are IMPUTED with the righteousness of Christ.
Yes, 'no, not one righteous' speaks of Romans 3, but this is speaking of an unregenerated sinful man. Once we are in Christ, we HAVE His righteousness :)
 
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