K
I sorta wanna know what you are talking about... but then if it makes Zone sick... I think I prefer not... I take your word and be ignorant... but then I digress...
Ignorant OF WHAT!!!!!
Ignorant OF WHAT!!!!!
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For fame, personal glory, profit, certain pastors and evangelists are claiming powers they do not have, and creating media shows in place of authentic miracles. This tendency is affecting a lot of churches. Certain videos are particularly sickening to true people of God, and some of those have been aired here.
ken with specific reference to the joyner vids posted here, is it the 'healing' stuff that see as helping people?
i'm glad you take a stand on this.
what are you referring to when you say it? ("do it")....do what? conduct a revival/healing/preaching?
i mean to ask, what is it, and what is right or wrong about what we saw.
i'm being thick here, not asking my questions very well, but the fact we're talking about it is good.
z
i'm glad you take a stand on this.
what are you referring to when you say it? ("do it")....do what? conduct a revival/healing/preaching?
i mean to ask, what is it, and what is right or wrong about what we saw.
i'm being thick here, not asking my questions very well, but the fact we're talking about it is good.
z
K
My wife loved a book by him, The Final Quest. I saw nothing wrong with that book, and liked some of the analogies he drew. I still use the part about the glowing suit of righteousness covered by the cloak of humility (just used it two weeks ago here at CC, advising a young man). I thought anyone who could say some of the things he said, like having the angels say "we don't even recognize most of what you guys are doing down there" was timely, and courageous, as was his analogy about the great place in heaven reserved for the homeless man who died giving his body warmth to another man sleeping in the street in the cold of winter. He wrote that book in 1997.
It's what I saw in the previous posts in this thread that changes my opinion. Now I see that he has joined the Knights of Malta. While that's fine for a Catholic follower, I hardly think it's good for a leader with a ministry of his own and a best-selling book about what the church ought to do. I also see some videos of him doing the show-offy kind of "gift-ministry" that I have come to associate with self-advancement. He should have let the Lord shine that gleaming coat, instead of asking the Knights of Malta to do it, and he should have kept his cloak of humility on.
If God gives you a book and you get famous, that's great. If you try to make your own fame, that's not good.
It's what I saw in the previous posts in this thread that changes my opinion. Now I see that he has joined the Knights of Malta. While that's fine for a Catholic follower, I hardly think it's good for a leader with a ministry of his own and a best-selling book about what the church ought to do. I also see some videos of him doing the show-offy kind of "gift-ministry" that I have come to associate with self-advancement. He should have let the Lord shine that gleaming coat, instead of asking the Knights of Malta to do it, and he should have kept his cloak of humility on.
If God gives you a book and you get famous, that's great. If you try to make your own fame, that's not good.
If God put you in the midst of these people would you as a believer lay your life down for them? Would you love them unconditionally? Would you eat with them and do your best to have fellowship with them? Would you discern the Lord's body and have communion with them through the love of God and understand their capacity for grace and truth and minister to that need? Would you worship God with them with your spirit as God has taught you through the word and the Holy Spirit? Would you walk in wisdom toward them and in the midst of them as a servant? Would you serve them and edify them as members of the body of Christ and minister grace to them in every way possible?
If they are your brothers and sisters in Christ then we are members one of another and of the same body. There is one body, one Spirit, one faith, one hope of our calling and one Lord who is over all and in all. They may not be the brand of Christians that we are use to but do we identify with them as members of the same body that has been redeemed by the blood of Christ? Shall the hand say to the foot I have no need of you and are not the members we think to be less honourable or more feeble, do we not bestow upon them more abundant honour so that the body can be tempered?
Is there a time when we are in the midst of God's people that we can not magnify Christ and lift Him up to be worshiped and praised? Then this is what we are to do in the midst of the assemble where God rejoices over them with singing. Are we to always look upon the outward appearance or are we going to be like our Father in heaven and look upon the heart. Let your light so shine among men that they may see your good works of grace and glorify your heavenly Father in heaven.
If they are your brothers and sisters in Christ then we are members one of another and of the same body. There is one body, one Spirit, one faith, one hope of our calling and one Lord who is over all and in all. They may not be the brand of Christians that we are use to but do we identify with them as members of the same body that has been redeemed by the blood of Christ? Shall the hand say to the foot I have no need of you and are not the members we think to be less honourable or more feeble, do we not bestow upon them more abundant honour so that the body can be tempered?
Is there a time when we are in the midst of God's people that we can not magnify Christ and lift Him up to be worshiped and praised? Then this is what we are to do in the midst of the assemble where God rejoices over them with singing. Are we to always look upon the outward appearance or are we going to be like our Father in heaven and look upon the heart. Let your light so shine among men that they may see your good works of grace and glorify your heavenly Father in heaven.
K
It's a little hard to be terribly specific. Each vid is 10 minutes out of context of the whole evening.
I would be happy to conduct revivals, healing services, and preach the truth anytime. If, by accident, unplanned, someone or a group got high on God, and wanted to dance, jump, shout, or whatever, I would have no problem. But I would not encourage it beyond an announcement that it is permitted, nor would I add to it myself. Properly speaking, you sing to the Lord with all your might, you encourage others to rejoice, you let the prophets have their say, one at a time, you give the message God gave you for the evening. You offer prayer to anyone who wants it, and then you let the Lord do His thing, whatever it is that night. (Third time proofreading, I just realized I did not mention the collection. I guess now we know why I'll never be a pastor.) When God does it, you can do it quietly and hearts are moved, and things get changed.
Here is my most joyous "in the Lord" experience, and it was private. I had come home from teaching, and it was time for my wife to cut my hair, which we normally talked about for two weeks and then made an appointment we could not then break. Well, she had been singing praise to God for several hours, and was higher in the Spirit than I had ever seen her outside of formal ministry. We joked about the cuts to my neck for months. You see, you just can't maintain the thought processes to do such things properly when you are rejoicing in the Lord with your whole body. But she could still stand there behind my head and my hair still got cut.
I have never seen anything in our ministry remotely like what is in those videos. When holy laughter began in Toronto, my wife was quick to point out that all it seems to be producing is a stream of marital infidelity and breakway Christians. I have been through deliverances with many of the Hollywood trimmings, hosted dance workshops, and been with 35,000 people praying in tongues together. I've watched kids at Christian concerts worship by jumping up and down in one place. This is totally different. When people rejoice, it "feels" like rejoicing. This "feels" like a counterfeit.
So what am I opposed to: instead of "allowing the Lord to move", someone trying to MAKE the Lord move, and getting instead what is a almost certainly a counterfeit. In justice I should say again that these are short videos out of the context of the whole night. If the Lord really did this, as on a rare occasion, I could be completely wrong about these specific instances.
Now, I think some people get healed this way. God is present in every event of life, and even when people are totally wrong how to worship Him, He will still bless whoever He can. But I think 80% of the "healings" done at such a service are probably psychosomatic, and will recur in a few days. I know people who wander the world looking for yet a more powerful minister of healing, as judged by his volume, because they still aren't healed by the last guy. [and notice my phrase "healed by the guy"; that's a big part of the problem.]
Keep asking questions, my answers need improvement, too.
I would be happy to conduct revivals, healing services, and preach the truth anytime. If, by accident, unplanned, someone or a group got high on God, and wanted to dance, jump, shout, or whatever, I would have no problem. But I would not encourage it beyond an announcement that it is permitted, nor would I add to it myself. Properly speaking, you sing to the Lord with all your might, you encourage others to rejoice, you let the prophets have their say, one at a time, you give the message God gave you for the evening. You offer prayer to anyone who wants it, and then you let the Lord do His thing, whatever it is that night. (Third time proofreading, I just realized I did not mention the collection. I guess now we know why I'll never be a pastor.) When God does it, you can do it quietly and hearts are moved, and things get changed.
Here is my most joyous "in the Lord" experience, and it was private. I had come home from teaching, and it was time for my wife to cut my hair, which we normally talked about for two weeks and then made an appointment we could not then break. Well, she had been singing praise to God for several hours, and was higher in the Spirit than I had ever seen her outside of formal ministry. We joked about the cuts to my neck for months. You see, you just can't maintain the thought processes to do such things properly when you are rejoicing in the Lord with your whole body. But she could still stand there behind my head and my hair still got cut.
I have never seen anything in our ministry remotely like what is in those videos. When holy laughter began in Toronto, my wife was quick to point out that all it seems to be producing is a stream of marital infidelity and breakway Christians. I have been through deliverances with many of the Hollywood trimmings, hosted dance workshops, and been with 35,000 people praying in tongues together. I've watched kids at Christian concerts worship by jumping up and down in one place. This is totally different. When people rejoice, it "feels" like rejoicing. This "feels" like a counterfeit.
So what am I opposed to: instead of "allowing the Lord to move", someone trying to MAKE the Lord move, and getting instead what is a almost certainly a counterfeit. In justice I should say again that these are short videos out of the context of the whole night. If the Lord really did this, as on a rare occasion, I could be completely wrong about these specific instances.
Now, I think some people get healed this way. God is present in every event of life, and even when people are totally wrong how to worship Him, He will still bless whoever He can. But I think 80% of the "healings" done at such a service are probably psychosomatic, and will recur in a few days. I know people who wander the world looking for yet a more powerful minister of healing, as judged by his volume, because they still aren't healed by the last guy. [and notice my phrase "healed by the guy"; that's a big part of the problem.]
Keep asking questions, my answers need improvement, too.
hi redster.
which people? the ones in the videos?
i myself would not be within 100 miles of any of that. been there, seen it, got the t-shirt.
is that what you meant?
why do you think i stick my neck out over this stuff when it's so unpopular to do so?
because it's not of GOD.
i think that's how i'm trying to love the church >> stay away....don't touch....don't do that!
zone
which people? the ones in the videos?
i myself would not be within 100 miles of any of that. been there, seen it, got the t-shirt.
is that what you meant?
why do you think i stick my neck out over this stuff when it's so unpopular to do so?
because it's not of GOD.
i think that's how i'm trying to love the church >> stay away....don't touch....don't do that!
zone
hi ken
true.
but i've watched 100s of hours of that stuff. and seen much in person.
okay
alright. well, of course this is where we have that gulf between us, since i am a cessationist.
but i do appreciate your adherence to Paul's instructions to the people the epistle was addressed (who were receiving the New Covenant revelation).
the above part makes me more than a little uncomfortable.
i guess we can talk about that.
this is true.
thank you for sharing that ken.
it's wonderful
i would agree with that, at a bare minimum.
in that case, it surely could not be of God, would you agree?
if it was not of God, what was it?
(i've spent several years studying that particular movement, as i had a personal brush with "it" myself).
3 weeks of prayer and fasting brought deliverance from it. and much understanding of what it really was.
we could talk about that sometime.
okay.
it's a little awkward getting to this point with you, since though i am certain we again have the gulf between us on the issues of tongues, your sincerity and forthrightness is disarming.
however, it does need to be addressed eventually in any discussion of the continuation (or "renewal") of the Acts 2 miracles.
i certainly agree.
but are feelings all we have to be certain?
i suppose this is discernment. but discernment is not simply going by our feelings - we have to have something more from which to measure, or weigh what we see. something objective.
this is a good time to say i do not nor have i ever denied miracles, that God can and does work miracles, He is the same always, in His Character and Attributes....but He does not always do things the same way - i wonder if we agree here?
for example: in the exodus, His miracles and power were huge and amazing - they are recorded for us.
yet in the return from Babylon, we see no miracles of the same kind.
He was the same God, leading the same people, both times out of captivity. yet He did things differently.
(i've said this poorly...forgive it please).
this is perfectly reasonable, and i would agree.
but where are we actually told, when we assemble or worship, to "allow the Lord to move"?
what does that mean exactly?
the only issue i have is that if we are expecting, or believing that 'certain things' will or should 'happen', do we not actually set it up in expectation of that?
some groups do: we have a particular kind of music and emotional hyping prior to whatever 'event' is planned, and so on. this is really obvious in the hundreds of hours of footage i've seen. anyways....
i agree
absolutely.
i do not think, though, that means He is happy with the likes of joyner et al.
just that He may (might) have mercy and be working in someone's life in spite of (what i see as ) apostate 'leadership'.
again, i agree.
and again, i'm very happy and blessed to be talking to you.
i think we have a lot in common. in spite of the gulf which i will not be crossing (my beliefs/convictions).
ok
i love you
zone
true.
but i've watched 100s of hours of that stuff. and seen much in person.
okay
alright. well, of course this is where we have that gulf between us, since i am a cessationist.
but i do appreciate your adherence to Paul's instructions to the people the epistle was addressed (who were receiving the New Covenant revelation).
the above part makes me more than a little uncomfortable.
i guess we can talk about that.
this is true.
thank you for sharing that ken.
it's wonderful
i would agree with that, at a bare minimum.
in that case, it surely could not be of God, would you agree?
if it was not of God, what was it?
(i've spent several years studying that particular movement, as i had a personal brush with "it" myself).
3 weeks of prayer and fasting brought deliverance from it. and much understanding of what it really was.
we could talk about that sometime.
okay.
it's a little awkward getting to this point with you, since though i am certain we again have the gulf between us on the issues of tongues, your sincerity and forthrightness is disarming.
however, it does need to be addressed eventually in any discussion of the continuation (or "renewal") of the Acts 2 miracles.
i certainly agree.
but are feelings all we have to be certain?
i suppose this is discernment. but discernment is not simply going by our feelings - we have to have something more from which to measure, or weigh what we see. something objective.
this is a good time to say i do not nor have i ever denied miracles, that God can and does work miracles, He is the same always, in His Character and Attributes....but He does not always do things the same way - i wonder if we agree here?
for example: in the exodus, His miracles and power were huge and amazing - they are recorded for us.
yet in the return from Babylon, we see no miracles of the same kind.
He was the same God, leading the same people, both times out of captivity. yet He did things differently.
(i've said this poorly...forgive it please).
this is perfectly reasonable, and i would agree.
but where are we actually told, when we assemble or worship, to "allow the Lord to move"?
what does that mean exactly?
the only issue i have is that if we are expecting, or believing that 'certain things' will or should 'happen', do we not actually set it up in expectation of that?
some groups do: we have a particular kind of music and emotional hyping prior to whatever 'event' is planned, and so on. this is really obvious in the hundreds of hours of footage i've seen. anyways....
i agree
absolutely.
i do not think, though, that means He is happy with the likes of joyner et al.
just that He may (might) have mercy and be working in someone's life in spite of (what i see as ) apostate 'leadership'.
again, i agree.
and again, i'm very happy and blessed to be talking to you.
i think we have a lot in common. in spite of the gulf which i will not be crossing (my beliefs/convictions).
ok
i love you
zone
hi ken.
i missed this post.
hmmm....ok.
of course, from my perspective i'm happy you've changed your opinion.
where we differ is that in my studies of joyner, he was never called by God.
God didn't give him that book.
this is awkward, as i mentioned....
i feel mean. tsk.....human feelings
yet. it must be looked at in any discussion of the NAR.
and those guys are occultists.
z
i missed this post.
hmmm....ok.
of course, from my perspective i'm happy you've changed your opinion.
where we differ is that in my studies of joyner, he was never called by God.
God didn't give him that book.
this is awkward, as i mentioned....
i feel mean. tsk.....human feelings
yet. it must be looked at in any discussion of the NAR.
and those guys are occultists.
z
The cross is the boundary and everything that comes with it through Christ's death, burial and resurrection. It is exclusive and at the same time inclusive when it comes to mercy and growing in grace and truth. The flesh excludes based upon preference, personality rapport and comfortability and has no discernment concerning the things of God and rejects the death of the cross to the old man so it can express itself according to its own dictates with all its likes and dislikes. When a believer is crucified with Christ in their experience and not just positionally they have none of these things energizing them through the flesh.
You may have the t-shirt but is it dipped in blood of the Lamb or just stuffed in the draw of open rejection because it does not feel right or fit your body of doctrine that you like to parade upon others that lacks the grace of identifying with certain members of your own body, flesh and bones. If others want to identify with you in this then I also part company, no matter who they are. If they want to keep the unity of the peace they will have to reject what they embrace on this through the death of the cross. The issue is not doctrine, it is the cross and the faith that comes with being crucified with Christ in our experience.
You may have the t-shirt but is it dipped in blood of the Lamb or just stuffed in the draw of open rejection because it does not feel right or fit your body of doctrine that you like to parade upon others that lacks the grace of identifying with certain members of your own body, flesh and bones. If others want to identify with you in this then I also part company, no matter who they are. If they want to keep the unity of the peace they will have to reject what they embrace on this through the death of the cross. The issue is not doctrine, it is the cross and the faith that comes with being crucified with Christ in our experience.
check this video out guys,one of the reasion i left charizmatic movement 7 years ago
Wretched: False Prophet Fiasco. - YouTube
Wretched: False Prophet Fiasco. - YouTube
A
Romans 16:17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.
We are not left to our own in these matters. We have orders.
If you dont like me i still love you.
........................
We are not left to our own in these matters. We have orders.
If you dont like me
i still love you.........................
P
Zone is probably wearing her 'humility cloak', and didn't even need to hear this, but I did.
(Zone, I am absolutely NOT being sarcastic here. I love you!)
Perhaps I am the only one who needed to hear this...but I felt the conviction of the Spirit immediately, and my head bowed in humility to think I had the nerve to begin to think 'I am better' than anyone.
So, thank you, and more, thank God.
Just wondering, though...what do we say about, and to, the lady in the video?
How should we, as the Body of Christ, respond to such a one?
Yes, we love her. Anyone (including everyone here ) who names the Name of Jesus, we ask the Lord to help us see the new man, and see the heart and the Lord in them.
But, practically speaking, though we never reject the individual, what do we do with the rest?
I hope this is clear...I'm feeling a bit muddled, even more than usual.
-ellie
(Zone, I am absolutely NOT being sarcastic here. I love you!)
Perhaps I am the only one who needed to hear this...but I felt the conviction of the Spirit immediately, and my head bowed in humility to think I had the nerve to begin to think 'I am better' than anyone.
So, thank you, and more, thank God.
Just wondering, though...what do we say about, and to, the lady in the video?
How should we, as the Body of Christ, respond to such a one?
Yes, we love her. Anyone (including everyone here
) who names the Name of Jesus, we ask the Lord to help us see the new man, and see the heart and the Lord in them.But, practically speaking, though we never reject the individual, what do we do with the rest?
I hope this is clear...I'm feeling a bit muddled, even more than usual.
-ellie