No fair! You said I should start the thread, so you could continue discussing with me. I already posted a summary. It should be your turn to ask a question.
See my response to Rachel's post just above.
LOL Ken!
okay
if you're having a discussion with rachel, that's cool. i'll leave that alone.
i've done all that church fathers' records stuff. we can refer to what they saw and didn't see, wrote and did not write if we like. and they do make good witnesses.
but it appears you and i already agree that there was a cessation.
that's the starting point for me. so we are considering RENEWAL or LATTER RAIN (etc)
you also say other obscure references mention some things which may or may not have been the genuine gifts in operation. these may or may not be good witnesses.
our theories of the RC suppressing the gifts doesn't come into play for me, since i do not believe anyone, man or angelic host could stop God from continuation if that was His plan.
the Bible only records 3 periods of tremendous and
consistent miraculous activity by God - and all 3 were related to His
showing of power, which was directly related to
what He was saying at the time.
the times of
Moses; Elijah and Elisha; and Jesus the Apostles.
(note: again i say God has not stopped working, nor has He been suppressed, nor that He is suddenly not able or willing to work the same miracles - i am saying He doesn't need to, and His not performing miracles for long periods shows He has His Own plan)
Each time He moved with TRUE MIRACLES (miracles is another term we must define at some point) it was in part to SHOW Himself (for some as a Judge); to confirm His messengers has His authority; and to encourage the people to REMEMBER Him.....His desire that they continue to come to Him
IN PRAYER and
FAITH.
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can we just jump right in to some of the activities we have today, comparing them with the historical accounts in scriptures?
(reminder and notice - i am a cessationist, and reject unintelligible noises as being the Biblical tongues....if anyone is offended by that, i'm sorry you feel that way).
okay: topic - tongues.
Acts 2
The Coming of the Holy Spirit
1When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”
Peter’s Sermon at Pentecost
14But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b 16
But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servantsc and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
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QUESTION:
Ken:
were the tongues gifts poured out at Pentecost in Acts 2 known human (gentile) languages or unintelligible noises?
love zone