K
hi Ken.
i'm trying to fire up the brain cells on this one
some i haven't used in awhile.
i'll post from my older files and add some other things (pre-catholic renewal mystics - Jane Ward Leade etc/montanism, and so on).
there may not be any way around eventually bringing up names of NAR guys (old and new). there are some things we can discover about where these guys meet - and who they meet with. i have to pray about how far to go with that.
the following is not my writing, but sums up my position (i may not say it exactly this way, but it's close).
so my thesis will be somewhat like this (emphasis mine):
"Religious Addiction
What we are really dealing with in our Charismatic friends is religious addiction. It is every bit as real and as damaging as any other addiction. And like most addicts, only those who are brought low enough to see the truth finally seek help, or give up hope. It is only when the drink or the drug or the pleasure fails to deliver as promised — over and over again — that the addict is finally prepared to listen to reason. When a soul is seduced by the empty promises of Charismaticism and reason is dismissed as a hindrance, the grip of this heresy tightens incredibly. One trapped in its hold seldom is prepared to reemploy long-abandoned reason until real drought and famine have set in. A Charismatic has to want help before he or she can accept it. As long as they remain content in Pentecostal delusion and satisfied with the ear-tickling, soul-thrilling “high” it conveys, they will not hear our pleas to return to what they consider to be the bondage of “cold, dead orthodoxy.”...
The Reformation Revisited
At a time centuries ago when the Bible was not available to most people, the gospel was buried in Roman Catholic malpractice, superstition, and corruption. So it is today in the Charismatic movement. The Bible is pushed aside except as a prop for “proof texting” popular teachings and for lending credibility to some “prophetic word.” The truth is obscured for the sake of keeping the sheep in bondage to the influence of corrupt wolves and hirelings who care not for the sheep, but for themselves (Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23). Modern Charismaticism is exactly like Roman Catholicism was in the Middle Ages; steeped in unbiblical superstitions, false doctrines, and control over the flock.
The solution today is exactly the same as it was back then — a return to the Scriptures; a new reformation that absolutely insists upon the supremacy of the Scriptures in determining what is so and what is not. But now even as in those days, it is not to be a “just me and my Bible” approach! The Bible is to be interpreted according to “the analogy of faith” as the early fathers called it — the foundations laid by Christ and the Apostles. As inspired interpreters of the Old Testament, it is their interpretations of the Old Testament and their sayings and writings in the New Testament that formed the basis for all generations to follow. The Church is called “the pillar and ground of the truth” in 1st Timothy 3:15, and its “common confession” (verse 16) of the Christian faith appears over and over again in the “faithful sayings, worthy of acceptation (1st Timothy 1:15, 3:1, 4:9, 2nd Timothy 2:11, Titus 3:8, Revelation 22:6)” and elucidated in the ancient creeds of the Christian faith. Those “faithful sayings” that Paul and John refer to are the most ancient creeds! They were the “rule of faith,” the basis for all interpretation of Scripture. It is this rule of faith and the Scriptures alone that the Reformation restored to the Church. And it is exactly the same that must be restored to those emerging from modern-day Babylon."
"Reaching Those Still Trapped in Charismatic Chaos" by Robin Arnaud < click source
Cessationism - Cessationist - Spiritual Gifts - The Ultimate Cessationism Resource < broader source
tty soon
love zone
i'm trying to fire up the brain cells on this one
some i haven't used in awhile.
i'll post from my older files and add some other things (pre-catholic renewal mystics - Jane Ward Leade etc/montanism, and so on).
there may not be any way around eventually bringing up names of NAR guys (old and new). there are some things we can discover about where these guys meet - and who they meet with. i have to pray about how far to go with that.
the following is not my writing, but sums up my position (i may not say it exactly this way, but it's close).
so my thesis will be somewhat like this (emphasis mine):
"Religious Addiction
What we are really dealing with in our Charismatic friends is religious addiction. It is every bit as real and as damaging as any other addiction. And like most addicts, only those who are brought low enough to see the truth finally seek help, or give up hope. It is only when the drink or the drug or the pleasure fails to deliver as promised — over and over again — that the addict is finally prepared to listen to reason. When a soul is seduced by the empty promises of Charismaticism and reason is dismissed as a hindrance, the grip of this heresy tightens incredibly. One trapped in its hold seldom is prepared to reemploy long-abandoned reason until real drought and famine have set in. A Charismatic has to want help before he or she can accept it. As long as they remain content in Pentecostal delusion and satisfied with the ear-tickling, soul-thrilling “high” it conveys, they will not hear our pleas to return to what they consider to be the bondage of “cold, dead orthodoxy.”...
The Reformation Revisited
At a time centuries ago when the Bible was not available to most people, the gospel was buried in Roman Catholic malpractice, superstition, and corruption. So it is today in the Charismatic movement. The Bible is pushed aside except as a prop for “proof texting” popular teachings and for lending credibility to some “prophetic word.” The truth is obscured for the sake of keeping the sheep in bondage to the influence of corrupt wolves and hirelings who care not for the sheep, but for themselves (Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23). Modern Charismaticism is exactly like Roman Catholicism was in the Middle Ages; steeped in unbiblical superstitions, false doctrines, and control over the flock.
The solution today is exactly the same as it was back then — a return to the Scriptures; a new reformation that absolutely insists upon the supremacy of the Scriptures in determining what is so and what is not. But now even as in those days, it is not to be a “just me and my Bible” approach! The Bible is to be interpreted according to “the analogy of faith” as the early fathers called it — the foundations laid by Christ and the Apostles. As inspired interpreters of the Old Testament, it is their interpretations of the Old Testament and their sayings and writings in the New Testament that formed the basis for all generations to follow. The Church is called “the pillar and ground of the truth” in 1st Timothy 3:15, and its “common confession” (verse 16) of the Christian faith appears over and over again in the “faithful sayings, worthy of acceptation (1st Timothy 1:15, 3:1, 4:9, 2nd Timothy 2:11, Titus 3:8, Revelation 22:6)” and elucidated in the ancient creeds of the Christian faith. Those “faithful sayings” that Paul and John refer to are the most ancient creeds! They were the “rule of faith,” the basis for all interpretation of Scripture. It is this rule of faith and the Scriptures alone that the Reformation restored to the Church. And it is exactly the same that must be restored to those emerging from modern-day Babylon."
"Reaching Those Still Trapped in Charismatic Chaos" by Robin Arnaud < click source
Cessationism - Cessationist - Spiritual Gifts - The Ultimate Cessationism Resource < broader source
tty soon
love zone
The Bible is not pushed aside at all by those I know. Most have read the Bible cover to cover at least a few times, most own extensive commentaries and consult them often. We often engage in debates about what Scripture does and does not say. I do not know of a single case, where Scripture is not openly consulted, passages are compared, and the results prayed over.
Your third paragraph raises a couple interesting points: Define the "Church" and its "common confession". A large part of the church is now charismatic. And how do you reconcile quoting the church fathers with your own being "sola scriptura" except to quote those Scriptures in the paragraph, bringing us back to where is the real "church"?
Your second source is too big to deal with unless you highlight specific portions.
Your first source is partially requoted here in the post. Two more observations. While it is true I distrust human reason without proof from Scripture, I certainlty don't trust everything I hear in my head. It too must be tested by Scripture. Second, I know of almost no one who was disappointed by the Charismatic renewal who is currently unchurched. I know of many, many non-charismatics disappointed by church who are now unchurched. My experience is exactly the opposite of the author linked to.