Spiritual gifts DEAD after 200 A.D.? What about these verses, cessationists?

feedm3 · Dec 8, 2012

I Cor 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

Click to 0:20

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQpJznGgOm4[/video]

Hmmmmmmm.......

carolineh · Dec 8, 2012

that is truly shocking and makes you wonder about everything being done decently and in order and reminds me of one of our local ministers who was a Dutchman from Holland who when he visited a church like the ones shown in this dvd, said the Lord's prayer in his native tongue and the interpreter stood up and translated it into something entirely different and when the minister objected, the congregation supported the interpreter...these things must really grieve the Holy Spirit as He leads believers into all truth..not deceptions and delusions

megaman125 · Dec 8, 2012

I Cor 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

Don't confuse the gift of tongues with the heavenly language.

peterT · Dec 8, 2012

How are the gifs dead, do we have to see before you believe.

Do we have to put your fingers in the holes and thrust you hand into his side before you believe.

and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

How are the gifs dead if the two end time prophets have gifs (future)

Rv11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Not to mention the 144000 which are first fruits (future), just like the disciples were first fruits.

Jesus is the resurrection and the life and even death could not hold Lazarus down.

Nothings dead, maybe it sleeps like Lazarus waiting to be awaked

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

It’s just a matter of faith. Then nothing shall be imposable unto you, and according to your faith let it be done unto you.

1 Corinthians 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

More than 400 years the children of Israel hat to wait until God heard there cry and come to their rescue. 400 years to serve with rigour making their lives bitter with hard bondage before God opened the windows of heaven, God is not dead nor are his gifs

Hebr10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

The only thing dead is some Christians faith, and even then God is able to turn that around.

God is in the business of turning things around, look at the book of Esther.

Haman tried to have Mordecai hanged on the gallows, but God turned it around and hanged Haman instead.

feedm3 · Dec 8, 2012

megaman125 said:

I am not confused, neither do I believe their is a heavenly language that we can speak.

Their is no example in scripture of anyone speaking a heavenly language, everything they spoke in tongues it was another understandable laungage, hence the reason for an interpreter.

What you pointed out "let him speak to himself and GOd" is the other part of "but if there be no interpreter", this is concerning human languages.

Paul used a hyperbole when he said:
1 if I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal

The KJV tranlates "if" as "though" which is a poor tranlation, the Greek proves it, by the word "if".

So Paul is saying "if" even their was, without love, it would be nothing.

It is an exxagration to make a point.

Same way he used:
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Not that this means "we" the Apostles would preach another gospel, or that "an angel from heaven" would preach another gospel, the point is not matter who preaches another gospel let him be accused.

It is a hyperbole. We would not assume this means their are Apostles preaching a different gospel, and angels from heaven doing the same.

In I Cor 13: paul uses this same method to emphasize love. Even if their were another heavenly language, without love it would be nothing.

He told them this because they were not speaking in tongues (languages) correctly, and because they were coveting this, instead of love.

There is not one example of gibberish being spoken like in these videos. But in stead the example is people of different tongues, all hearing the words in their language.

feedm3 · Dec 8, 2012

peterT said:

Like comparing apples with oranges.

Our views of this are different. Another topic.

Figauritve, representing the saved.

Agree with the first part, not sure about the rest.

Our faith does not revolve around the temporary gifts of the Spirit.

Believing I Cor 13:10 is not dead faith. In fact is true faith.

zone · Dec 8, 2012

GRA said:

hahaha GRA!

i didn't see those links. i meant i liked your cessationism studies.
i will check out your other threads.
thanks very much.
zone

megaman125 · Dec 8, 2012

feedm3 said:

O really?

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:1

Tongues of angels? Sounds like a heavenly language.

For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 14:2

No one understands them, huh? That means it's not an understandable language. It isn't for other people to interpret, since it's something that is spoken to God, who doesn't need an interpreter.

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.
1 Corinthians 14:14-15

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
Romans 8:26

"Groanings too deep for words?" "Praying in the Spirit?" Sounds like there's a lot more going on here than you're given credit. Then again, you block your mind out to anything related to the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

zone · Dec 8, 2012

megaman125 said:

I Cor 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

Don't confuse the gift of tongues with the heavenly language.

megaman, can you explain the difference?
zone

megaman125 · Dec 8, 2012

zone said:

You can check my post above, but I'll give the short and simple version here.

The gift of tongues is speaking in other humanly languages which can be interpreted by someone. The heavenly language is our prayer language between us and God, which does not have an interpreter, because it's not a message directed to other people, but to God.

Back to 1 Corinthians 14:27-32. That's why if there's no interpreter, the person is to keep silent, aka, their message is not to be broadcast to the whole church congregation the way that prophecies or messages in tongues are, because that's just the prayer language between that person and God.

zone · Dec 8, 2012

megaman125 said:

megaman, we do have examples of angels speaking.
in every instance without fail, they speak in known languages.
they speak languages men can understand...ootherwise why would God send them?

feedm3 is right - it's hyperbole.

it's like saying : "even if i could lift a 4000 lb Vista Cruiser, if i don't have love, my strength means nothing"

megaman125 said:

the mysteries aren't mysteries anymore.
paul said he was given mysteries:

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..

this is about the Second Coming and the resurrection, right?
now that we can read it (and the letter has been with since us he wrote it), it's not a mystery.
the early church was receiving the mysteries - just like paul said.
what we need to know is recorded.

they were receiving new information - no fully revealed word yet. they needed those gifts. we don't need them.
we are to put away childish thing...even if what goes on today were the true gifts, why are we doing the opposite of what paul said?

megaman125 said:

it doesn't mean that at all.
but if you're taking part in (indulging in) something that seems like that, you'd think what you do.
it's amazing to me that this chapter is so overworked in our day - i wonder why?

megaman125 said:

everytime we take this chapter apart this way, we're doing damage to it.
keep it in it's context!

megaman125 said:

no noise.
it actually means deep inward sighing, groaning.
quiet. sighing at most....ever do it? mixed up...don't know what to do, think, or say? can't focus or pray?
sighing? that's at absolute most all the text allows.

not glossolalia.

does all creation actually groan? making noises? is all creation speaking a heavenly prayer language like in the video?

feedm3 · Dec 8, 2012

megaman125 said:

O really?

Read the rest of the post, refute the argument concerning this if you wish, right now it still stands.

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Concerning one who speaks in an unknown language without an interpreter

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

One without an interpreter is not edifying the church as one who is prophesying

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying

If noone understands, then no one is edified. Hence "except he interpret". This is concerning speaking in tongues without an interpreter, showing it is unedifying.

If it isnt for people to interpret, why did Paul say "except he interpret that the church may be edified?"

Dont forget the rest of the context, which again shows this is about interpretion:

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Why pray I should be able to interpret Paul?

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned (does not speak the language you are speaking)say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest

Again, this is showing that when one prays, sings, speaks in an unknown tongue, he must make sure their is an interpreter, so that all can understand, and not just those who understand the language.

If this was concerning a heavenly language, who could interpret? If it is the case that some could, why are they not, and people just spitting out unknown words and noone understands?

Does that violate what Paul is saying here?

This is not about heaven languages, it is about the only example we have - see Acts 2 that explains it perfectly.

The Spirit does this, not us. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with tongue speaking. But is showing how the Spirit helps us.

The Spirit is doing this, not us. I said "I dont believe their is a language THAT WE CAN SPEAK".

Showing the HS can speak something else does not prove anything.

GRA · Dec 8, 2012

megaman125 said:

'If any man speak in an unknown tongue' is still what is being talked about in verse 28...

Whether there be an interpreter or not - it is still talking about a man speaking in an unknown tongue.

It is saying, "if you don't have an interpreter, then keep it to yourself [and God]"...

That does not change 'what' it is talking about.

.

megaman125 · Dec 8, 2012

zone said:

The passage said tongues of angels. It didn't say angels speaking. It didn't say angles using humanly language. It was distinct in separating tongues of men and angels.

GRA · Dec 8, 2012

zone said:

Oh - sorry I misunderstood. 'Thank you' in any case. And, 'you are very welcome'.

.

zone · Dec 8, 2012

megaman125 said:

okay....can you prove there is a difference?
anywhere?

did paul mean to say he would be a literal, actual cymbal? because that's what he said. not like one - he said he would be one. is that what he really meant?

1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

??
zone

megaman125 · Dec 8, 2012

zone said:

1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

To borrow feedm3's one-liner...

Like comparing apples with oranges.

zone · Dec 8, 2012

megaman125 said:

okay...does tongues mean actual knowable languages (communication)?
is there any reason at all God would have angels and men communicating with Him (or each other) in either realm, in either case, where either creature didn't understand what they themselves were thinking (receiving)?
what conceivable good would that do?
is that really God?

peterT · Dec 8, 2012

feedm3 said:

“Like comparing apples with oranges”

It’s a parallel not appals and oranges. One believes before seeing, and one has to see before believing.

“Our faith does not revolve around the temporary gifts of the Spirit”.

On never said it did.
But it does revolve around Gods word, and after all this thread is about gifs being dead and gifs being not dead, is it not?

“Believing I Cor 13:10 is not dead faith. In fact is true faith”.

Yes faith is true, and if faith comes by hearing the word, what is the word that you’ve got to say gifs are dead? And I am assuming you are saying gifs are dead

feedm3 · Dec 8, 2012

peterT said:

feedm3 said:

Okay.

Yup, ceasing of miraculous gifts does not mean dead faith. It means a temporary power given to man, has ceased.

“Believing I Cor 13:10 is not dead faith. In fact is true faith”.

Yes the miraculous gifts have ceased - I Cor 13:10

Spiritual gifts DEAD after 200 A.D.? What about these verses, cessationists?

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