Why Many Fail to Receive Healing

[lesjude]

Cor:
"Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

If Pauls infirmity is persecution as you NEED to explain it, then why in the next verse does he seperate infirmity from persecution? They are listed as two seperate things so that YOU do not need to use your intuition to understand it.

Paul refers to his own ability or strength to overcome the difficulties of ministry, not sickness.

Cor:6
"3Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: 4But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; 9As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; 10As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. "

Troubles,hardships and distresses....also tumults,imprisonments,labours,LONGSUFFERING, DYING,SORROWFUL

You like the KJV so I thought I would use it for you....

The STRENGTH is not the healing for any of these things....The Strength made perfect is that although the believer or Gods Chosen Child or Childeren should go through these aweful things he does so bringing Glory to the Father! Always rejoicing and possessing all things! EVEN WHEN YOU MAY HAVE NOTHING!!!!
Please explain how God through Paul is lying here? Because by YOUR explanation I am a liar and have called God a liar by having a kindergarten understanding of the english language.....

The Machine

"Yes I went to kindergarten, I know how the alphabet works.......Dr.Gru"

In the whole list in the scripture above sickness is not mentioned once. Further Paul was DELIVERED out of all of these situations and persecutions albeit probably with some scars. He does say he bore some marks in his body. In fact there is some indication he was raised from the dead at least once. Paul does say elsewhere in the Bible that he did have a physical issue but refers to it in the past tense meaning he was healed.The Bible does not promise believers will not get sick but that God will heal/deliver them as he did Paul.

 

[Red33]

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. [/quote]

Very good Red, when we become sons of God our reborn spirits/souls rejoice in gladness, effecting our whole body. Yet we are still living, our body is dead, not just diseased.. How can that be, our mortal bodies dead but yet still living? Don't forget the verse before Romans 8:11--> 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Therefore, just as Christ was raised from the dead, so it will be of the same effect of our mortal bodies because we have the Holy Spirit within us, hence we "shall also be quicken" as Christ was raised, not "will be quickened now" but upon our resurrection.

"Biblically the Holy Spirit is neither an angel nor a mere mortal; rather he is the very God who redeems us from our sins and will one day resurrect us to life eternal (Acts 5:3–4; Romans 8:11)." Is the Allah of Islam the God of the Bible? from the Christian Research Institute.

Red, there is no sense in arguing over this, nothing we say will change your stiff neck and visa versa (yes, I can be stiffed necked too) unless we all come to the consensus that we all don't have it all figured out, the full knowledge of biblical interpretation, but you claim to have it. Ever Peter claimed Paul was hard to understand 2 Peter 3:16, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

How do you explain the many faithful in Christ who have not been healed? For example Joni Eareckson Tada!!! We don't acknowledge that miracles can't happen, only that many times they don't in which many cases it has nothing to do faith, just God's will.

Rom 8:11 is what it says and you can try to spiritualize it and make it mean whatever you want, if that is your thing. There are many people mad at me because I am being objective with some of the scriptures concerning faith, healing and our Lord Jesus Christ and they don't like it because it does not fit in their faith.

 

[zone]

In the whole list in the scripture above sickness is not mentioned once.

eh....WoF guys don't care what it says. dey got da power....
i'm sure you know exactly what paul meant by astheneia.
you weren't there, but you need him to never have gotten sick. so you just know.


2 Corinthians 12:10
For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

c: weakness, frailty
Original Word: ἀσθένεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: astheneia
Phonetic Spelling: (as-then'-i-ah)
Short Definition: want of strength, weakness, illness
Definition: want of strength, weakness, illness, suffering, calamity, frailty.

Cognate: 769 asthéneia – properly, without strength (negating the root sthenos, "strength"). See 772 (asthenēs).

769 /asthéneia ("weakness, sickness") refers to an ailment that deprives someone of enjoying or accomplishing what they would like to do. 769 (asthéneia) focuses on the handicaps that go with the weakness.

[769 (asthéneia) expresses the weakening influences of the illness or a particular problem, especially as someone becomes wrongly (overly) dependent.]

 

[Spiritual_Plague]

From what we've been given in scripture, we can know exactly what Paul was not communicating when he used the word "astheneia" through many examples.

Here's one example:

Act 28:8-9
"8 And it happened that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and dysentery. Paul went in to him and prayed, and he laid his hands on him and healed him. 9 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed."

If Paul believed sickness was such a great thing and so good for people, he would have told them so and left them to believe that instead of praying for them to be healed.

I've seen Christians go around wearing sickness like it's a badge of honor, because they have some weird idea in their mind based off of something they think Paul said, but when it comes down to it, Paul was the one who was out preaching the gospel and praying for the sick to be healed.

Yes, it is God's will for you to pray for the sick and the sick to be healed.

I've prayed for many things I knew was God's will and didn't see it happen, or at least haven't seen it happen yet.

Do we determine God's will through the results we see in our experiences, or do we determine God's will through what He speaks to us in the scriptures?

Do we walk by faith and not by sight, or do we walk by sight and fill in the gaps with what we would like to call faith?

 

[Ariel82]

From what we've been given in scripture, we can know exactly what Paul was not communicating when he used the word "astheneia" through many examples.

Here's one example:

Act 28:8-9
"8 And it happened that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and dysentery. Paul went in to him and prayed, and he laid his hands on him and healed him. 9 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed."

If Paul believed sickness was such a great thing and so good for people, he would have told them so and left them to believe that instead of praying for them to be healed.

I don't think anyone would argue with you that Paul did NOT believe that sickness is a great thing. no one has stated that illness is a badge of honor. at least I have not read or heard anyone say such things. that is just strange.

I've seen Christians go around wearing sickness like it's a badge of honor, because they have some weird idea in their mind based off of something they think Paul said, but when it comes down to it, Paul was the one who was out preaching the gospel and praying for the sick to be healed.

Yes, it is God's will for you to pray for the sick and the sick to be healed.

I've prayed for many things I knew was God's will and didn't see it happen, or at least haven't seen it happen yet.

Yes I think we should go out and pray for people but I think it is more important for people to be healed spiritually and mentally than physically because when Jesus comes and resurrects the dead everyone will be given new bodies anyway. Its not about what we can see now but our faith in God and what He truly promises.

certain people likes to quote Romans 8: 11 but don't keep reading to Romans 8 verse 18-25

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Do we determine God's will through the results we see in our experiences, or do we determine God's will through what He speaks to us in the scriptures?

Do we walk by faith and not by sight, or do we walk by sight and fill in the gaps with what we would like to call faith?

we walk in faith and we don't need to fill in the gaps with anything but scripture. and scripture says we wait in hope, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

on a side note: I love your music!

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhimv127BeI[/video]

 

[Bookends]

Rom 8:11 is what it says and you can try to spiritualize it and make it mean whatever you want, if that is your thing. There are many people mad at me because I am being objective with some of the scriptures concerning faith, healing and our Lord Jesus Christ and they don't like it because it does not fit in their faith.

I appreciate your opinion, but you know as well as I do, we all die. So who is spiritualizing? So if Romans 8:11 is talking giving life to our morals body now, we wouldn't die and there'd be no need for a resurrection...It's sound reasoning and logic. Peace

 

[zone]

"When the Word-Faith movement can't deliver on its promises, it cruelly blames the victim."
Hank Hanegraaff

Christianity in Crisis
I Left the Word of Faith Movement, Not Jesus -- and Hank Helped << click 4 part video series.

OPs claims covered.

 

[Ariel82]

have i told you lately that i love you?

Love you too Zone

I was slightly annoyed about being made to look like a gang or mob for simply fellowshiping with others and discussing scripture. Why someone would try and make another feel guilty for accepting others as their brothers and sisters and treating them with respect I don't know.

thought about starting a thread about Job three friends and their false view of God, Sin and Illness, but I think I'll just offer Red flowers instead. Do you think he would like red ones?

 

[Spiritual_Plague]

we walk in faith and we don't need to fill in the gaps with anything but scripture. and scripture says we wait in hope, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

I totally agree with everything you said. I would also add to that statement you made at the end and say that part of filling in those gaps with scripture also includes that "the prayer of faith will heal the sick" (James 5:15).

In this life, sickness exists, but it is God's will to heal us (James 5:15).

In the next life, sickness will simply not exist.
Rev 21:4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

So, if I am sick, you bet I'm looking forward to the fact that I've got a new body coming that will never experience that again, but you can guarantee I'll be trusting and praising God for the healing He provides in this life as well.

Glad you enjoy the music

 

[zone]

Zone,

Wondering about you is one thing but hearing from you is quite another.

why do you keep reading what i write then?
if you don't like it don't read it.
and stop wondering about me - it's not healthy. and i don't like it. it's weird.
and stop referring to me in posts to others.
i mean it.

I hope you feel better after all this

what kind of statement is that?
exactly what i have i done?

but your still in the same old rut.

uh....oka-a-a-a-a-y .....so you see something you want to see.....so what?
what's that got to do with me? or you? just go on about your business.

Doesn't it become the business of all those who are exposed to your understanding of the scriptures and how it relates to the person of Christ?

i guess so...just like your teachings.
ppl are exposed to your teachings (and giving into fits of anger; slander; malice; envy and stuff).
so? stop doing it.
like.....what do you want me to say. i'm happy to discuss my beliefs.

We are to follow hard after Christ and the heart of God and not some contrived form of doctrine that is out of joint in relationship to Christ and the church.

get really specific about this.
this is important.

you must back this up with being really precise about what you mean.
you know of course, that i will counter if i think your teaching is unscriptural.
and i will defend my beliefs if i think they are scriptural.

so don't be vague now, or deflect this. get really specific about exactly what you mean by this:

" some contrived form of doctrine that is out of joint in relationship to Christ and the church"

one point at a time if possible.

i doubt you'll do it, because it's going to open up your theology and beliefs to scrutiny.
but maybe i'm wrong.

(i do follow hard after Christ)

It was true when Christ was here and is also true now being seated at the right hand of the Father, that we have access by faith to be made whole in our spirit, soul and in our body, in this life and surely we will have it in the next life to come.

you never answered my question (i doubt you will):

do you have any believing friends; or unbelieving; that you or others have prayed for to be healed who were not healed. i'm not asking if you keep praying and believing and hoping - WE ALL DO THAT!

i'm asking if you know ANY christians you believe are (were) saved; who had (have) faith...who got (get) sick and or died of sickness.

yes............or...........no.

if so: WHAT IT THEIR FAULT, YOURS OR GOD'S? (maybe you'll say it was mine)

If there are those that want to put aside their belief in the Great Physician and remain content in their present state, then let them..

what kind of nutty (and tragically selfish and sinful) proposition is this?

" remain content in their present state" = "put[ting] aside their belief in the Great Physician"?

don't you read what ppl write Red?

However, if there are those that believe the promises and ability of the great Physician and discern the Lord's body for their spirit, soul and body, then leave them alone and let them believe and trust in the living God in all things and stop trying to sway them away from the faith that the Son of God has given to them through the scriptures.

this is wretched what you are doing.

Don't use your doctrine to lead others away from what they believe God for. Even Jesus has told us this in (Mt 9:29), 'Be it unto you according to your faith'. Leave others alone and let them live their life before the living God who has given them faith to do so.

why don't you swallow your own pill, man?

It's good to see that old party spirit picking back up again and snowballing on this site. Perhaps a few more will join you and forsake the faith they have been taught by the Spirit.

it's none of your business if i have friends, or there are ppl who like me. there are ppl who don't, such as you. i'm okay with that. why can't you be. get a life Red.

and it's none of your business if someone loves me (or i love them) either.
i'm a WIDOW. get it?

you have issues. serious ones.

 

[zone]

Love you too Zone
I was slightly annoyed about being made to look like a gang or mob for simply fellowshiping with others and discussing scripture. Why someone would try and make another feel guilty for accepting others as their brothers and sisters and treating them with respect I don't know.

hey girl:
ya.....we're not supposed to be individuals with personalities God gave us. something like that.
anyways....i love all the Lord's ppl. because they are His and we have Him and our love for Him in common.
it doesn't mean i have to agree with (or be best buds with everybody on the internet).
anyhoo........
ttyl
z

 

[cfultz3]

Love you too Zone

I was slightly annoyed about being made to look like a gang or mob for simply fellowshiping with others and discussing scripture. Why someone would try and make another feel guilty for accepting others as their brothers and sisters and treating them with respect I don't know.

I am still trying to figure that one out myself. Let me know if you find out why others would do this. It even gets to the point were one is afraid to agree with another because he knows what is coming by others. Anywho

 

[zone]

unsubscribe

 

[unclefester]

unsubscribe

Please ignore this post

 

[hopesprings]

"When the Word-Faith movement can't deliver on its promises, it cruelly blames the victim."
Hank Hanegraaff

Christianity in Crisis
I Left the Word of Faith Movement, Not Jesus -- and Hank Helped << click 4 part video series.

OPs claims covered.

God is about the size of an average man? Strange. I thought that only the train of His robe filled the temple...hmmm....

 

[Cobus]

I want to know if any of us has EVER been as powerful as Paul, even when he was at his most weak stage? Let me refraze this question.... Wheter Paul was weak and Jesus strong in him, or Paul was strong and Jesus weak in him, was any of us EVER to the same level of any of Paul's states of STRONG?

Do any of us even come CLOSE to Paul, let alone Jesus? And if we do not, WHY DO WE FALL SO SHORT? Because we are weak? Then Jesus should be strong in us should He not? But He is not, because I think HE IS NOT IN US! If we are strong, we are stupid, and if we are weak we are pityful, and childish! NOT like even Paul! And we call ourselves Christians... I think we fail that title misrably!

Every person that has Christ Jesus in him or her, will even surpass Jesus as HE WAS HERE! Jesus said so because HE WENT TO THE FATHER, and HE WILL ASK THE FATHER TO GIVE US WHAT WE ASK.... but do we receive? NO! Why not, did Jesus STOP asking the Father, or are we NOT IN HIS NAME, IN HIM? I say we are NOT IN HIM! Paul was, and Jesus was in Paul, but that is where I will stop.

This is as true today as it is when Jesus spoke these words, if you do not get this, you did not GET Jesus YET! Keep searching!
John 16:23..... Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Please just valuate your own prayers to this, do not try to explain to me thy Jesus said this.... I know why He did, this is the thing, If Jesus is in any person, that person will NOT go outside God's will, Not EVER, that is why God will say yes to every prayer, because it is Jesus asking again! God cannot say no to Jesus, it is denying HIMSELF, and God cannot do such a thing. Even the prayers of the righteouss is 100% lead and fed by God to the righteouss. That is why their prayers are 100% in God's will and the prayers are 100% answered with a YES...

Satan teaches God says.... Yes, No, Maybe, or yes for later... The Bible teaches GOd gives only YES to the righteouss. And it is only THEIR prayers he hears, God hears no sinners!

 

[Abiding]

zone says: and stop wondering about me - it's not healthy. and i don't like it. it's weird.



Oh my!! but then ive always been weird.

 

[BarlyGurl]

zone says: and stop wondering about me - it's not healthy. and i don't like it. it's weird.



Oh my!! but then ive always been weird.

http://images.45cat.com/the-doors-people-are-strange-elektra-5.jpg

Weird Strange... whatz the diff?

 

[Bookends]

I want to know if any of us has EVER been as powerful as Paul, even when he was at his most weak stage? Let me refraze this question.... Wheter Paul was weak and Jesus strong in him, or Paul was strong and Jesus weak in him, was any of us EVER to the same level of any of Paul's states of STRONG?

Do any of us even come CLOSE to Paul, let alone Jesus? And if we do not, WHY DO WE FALL SO SHORT? Because we are weak? Then Jesus should be strong in us should He not? But He is not, because I think HE IS NOT IN US! If we are strong, we are stupid, and if we are weak we are pityful, and childish! NOT like even Paul! And we call ourselves Christians... I think we fail that title misrably! “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.”... [ which is greater, God's mercy or his wrath? Does God delight in destruction? This is the very reason Christ had to suffer and spill His blood, so that covering will hide our failures, weaknesses, imperfections, sinful thoughts from God and make us acceptable to Him...We don't possess a willful desire to sin, but sin due to our weaknesses, for all in Christ wish for and moan for time our mortal and corruptible bodies will filled with incorruption and life eternal, at the time of Coming.]

Micah 7:18
18 Who is a God like You,
Pardoning iniquity
And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage?


Every person that has Christ Jesus in him or her, will even surpass Jesus as HE WAS HERE!
[this sounds heretical to me]
Jesus said so because HE WENT TO THE FATHER, and HE WILL ASK THE FATHER TO GIVE US WHAT WE ASK.... but do we receive? [so are you asking God to grant you the ability to surpass Jesus] NO! Why not, did Jesus STOP asking the Father, or are we NOT IN HIS NAME, IN HIM? I say we are NOT IN HIM! Paul was, and Jesus was in Paul, but that is where I will stop. [I hope I just misunderstand what you are trying to say]

This is as true today as it is when Jesus spoke these words, if you do not get this, you did not GET Jesus YET! Keep searching!
John 16:23..... Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will giveityou.
Please just valuate your own prayers to this, do not try to explain to me thy Jesus said this.... I know why He did, this is the thing, If Jesus is in any person, that person will NOT go outside God's will, [ Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.] Not EVER, that is why God will say yes to every prayer, because it is Jesus asking again! God cannot say no to Jesus, it is denying HIMSELF, and God cannot do such a thing. Even the prayers of the righteouss is 100% lead and fed by God to the righteouss. That is why their prayers are 100% in God's will and the prayers are 100% answered with a YES...

Satan teaches God says.... Yes, No, Maybe, or yes for later... The Bible teaches GOd gives only YES to the righteouss. [The problem here with you statement is their is only on righteous, Christ. For as us, human kind, there is none righteous, Romans 3:10-23-24,10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,] And it is only THEIR prayers he hears, God hears no sinners!

The Thorn in the Flesh

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Did God not say NO here to Paul?
Did Paul ever say He stopped being a sinner?

 

[Cobus]

Yes Paul did say he stopped being a sinner.... And God did say NO to Paul ONCE! And God gave Paul the reason, so Paul accepted and it was a YES GOD WE CONTINUE YOUR WAY!

Look what PAul said here.... Philippians 3:15... Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
God also said Paul was perfect and 100% in His will.... Remember how God said that if we (or Paul for that matter) are to appear in front off a council/court or hearing we should not fear what we will say but that the Holy Spirit will talk (or lay the words in our mouths, so I believe it was the Spirit talking here).... Well this is what the Holy Spirit said about Paul...
Acts 23:1... And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day. This was the Holy Spirit that talked. And the proof..... The high priest gave the command to smite him on the mouth..... EXACTLY as he treated the Holy Spirit in Jesus!

I ask this to myself.... Was God's will done in Paul? ...Answer YES!... what is God's will? ... Answer Matthew 5:48....
Mat 5:48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Another BOLD statement by Paul that he was perfect, or here is two....
1 Thes 1:6 and 7.... 1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 1Th 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
1 Cor 15.... What a hypocrate will preach this if HE CANNOT STOP SINNING HIMSELF?.... Paul was no hypocrate.... verse 33... 1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Last place to see if Paul was perfect and sinless..... How can a man that is not perfect, make a man that already stopped sinning (that is a saint) perfect, if he is not perfect himself? Paul was an APPOINTED APOSTLE BY GOD... so he had to be perfect to perfect the saints.... Eph 4:11 to 13... Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: