Romans 9 Calvin vs freewill

[tek]

Romans 6:16-18
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Isn't that what these verses are saying?

the way i understand it is like this
Romans 6:16-18
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
is that it's up to our heart whether to obey the doctrine that's been presented to us

 

[Grandpa]

the way i understand it is like this
Romans 6:16-18
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
is that it's up to our heart whether to obey the doctrine that's been presented to us

Even in light of what the Lord Jesus says in John 15:5 and what romans 6:18 explain and 1 Corinthians 2:14???

 

[tek]

Even in light of what the Lord Jesus says in John 15:5 ?

here it is again! I just don't understand why you mention John 15:5 now

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because a person can't choose Life without the Lord. Without Him there is no Life. Without Him there is no choice. Without Him there is nothing.

Amen and Amen. But we still have to make a choice. God wants us to.. He does not want to force it on us, or anyone. There would not be a relationship there. every try to force your kids to do something? if ya did, there would be no relationship.

Now how about show your kids what to do by 1, example. 2 Love and 3 forgiveness.. Now you have a relationship based on love

 

[Abiding]

Amen and Amen. But we still have to make a choice. God wants us to.. He does not want to force it on us, or anyone. There would not be a relationship there. every try to force your kids to do something? if ya did, there would be no relationship.

Now how about show your kids what to do by 1, example. 2 Love and 3 forgiveness.. Now you have a relationship based on love

He commands our volition even tho He does it all.......stretch forth thy withered hand!!!
the letters to the churches in Rev...are a great source to show that.
Maybe im off a few degrees didnt read the thread...just stopped by to say hi to EG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He commands our volition even tho He does it all.......stretch forth thy withered hand!!!
the letters to the churches in Rev...are a great source to show that.
Maybe im off a few degrees didnt read the thread...just stopped by to say hi to EG

Hey bud

yeah,, Or how about "behold I stand at the door and Knock. Anyone who opens I will come in and dine with him.. ? or something like that

 

[plussizedstickbug]

I looked this word up volition and yes this is what I believe we are presented with the Gospel and with it also comes the Power of God His Power is unseen the Holy Spirit. That does in fact brings this unto us in a convincing convincing way that truly does become very real unto us. we really believe it we believe we will remain in our sins and die and He is trying to Save us from death.
I think this is when we have the Holy Spirit come upon us unto us then we readily say I want Salvation from that death that awaits me I choose Christ.
Christ is like a beacon of Light a Way to Live and not be afraid of death or what lays after it.
Once we choose Christ because we believe His Words are True and he can save us he can keep us from death we are then given unto Him to keep and this by receiving the Spirit into us to seal us and remain there with us.
I think it is Holy Spirit unto the world and will come unto and upon all men through the Word of God and those who welcome Him and His Words He then comes into them. quickening us renewing us regeneration us in our new Life and way we are placed in and to go on even until our end here in this flesh and world.

I do not understand doctrines because I have never read them or heard about them until here recently the words are not even familiar at all to me.

 

[Grandpa]

here it is again! I just don't understand why you mention John 15:5 now

I know. Its just like I don't understand how I, being trapped in sin, was able to make the awesome decision to follow the Lord and no longer be trapped in my sin.

Why would I do that without help? How could I do that without help?

I don't know. Except I think it was His doing and not my own. I don't know for sure. Only He does.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know. Its just like I don't understand how I, being trapped in sin, was able to make the awesome decision to follow the Lord and no longer be trapped in my sin.

Why would I do that without help? How could I do that without help?

I don't know. Except I think it was His doing and not my own. I don't know for sure. Only He does.

You did get his help.

1. He convicted you of sin righteousness and judgment
2. He provided the opportunity for you to be saved by sending his son to die for you
3. He drew you to him (in whatever way that way, by someone showing you the gospel. or taking you to church or whatever)
4. He helped you understand what was being said, and offered through the gospel
5. He then left it up to you to say yes, and open the door. Or say no, and do whatever you want.

 

[cfultz3]

EG,

It seems I have went overboard in giving you likes in this thread

Keep up the Good works.

 

[Abiding]

EG,

It seems I have went overboard in giving you likes in this thread

Keep up the Good works.

You sure did thats why we call you cfultz3

 

[zone]

I know. Its just like I don't understand how I, being trapped in sin, was able to make the awesome decision to follow the Lord and no longer be trapped in my sin.

Why would I do that without help? How could I do that without help?

I don't know. Except I think it was His doing and not my own. I don't know for sure. Only He does.

John 6
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life.

helkó: to drag

1670 helkýō – properly, induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction-power involved with the drawing.

1. properly: τό δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινα, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τήν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρός τόν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4)cumtriniscatenisvinctustraheretur, Livy 2, 27cumalictoribusjamtraheretur).

2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44

~

and i'm not even a Calvinist, gramps

 

[cfultz3]

You sure did thats why we call you cfultz3

some would even say a clutz

 

[eternally-gratefull]

some would even say a clutz

wonder who that might be lol

 

[jimmydiggs]

and i'm not even a Calvinist, gramps

From Spurgeon: " I am sure it is true in my case; I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite certain that, if God had not chosen me, I should never have chosen Him; and I am sure He chose me before I was born, or else He never would have chosen me afterwards; and He must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why He should have looked upon me with special love. So I am forced to accept that great Biblical doctrine.

Don't gotta be a Calvinist to be a monergist...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John 6
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life.

helkó: to drag

1670 helkýō – properly, induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction-power involved with the drawing.

1. properly: τό δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινα, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τήν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρός τόν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4)cumtriniscatenisvinctustraheretur, Livy 2, 27cumalictoribusjamtraheretur).

2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44

~

and i'm not even a Calvinist, gramps

what does this have to do with being a calvanist?

1. To draw, to lead. (like a schoolmaster, who leads a child to class0

As I showed Above, God did lead. in all the ways he could. But he still requests that you chose to say yes or no..

Did not jesus say it is the spirit which gives life, the words I speak are spirit and they are truth? does not the scripture say the law is our schoolmaster (one of the way God draws) and many other things??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

From Spurgeon: " I am sure it is true in my case; I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite certain that, if God had not chosen me, I should never have chosen Him; and I am sure He chose me before I was born, or else He never would have chosen me afterwards; and He must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why He should have looked upon me with special love. So I am forced to accept that great Biblical doctrine.

Don't gotta be a Calvinist to be a monergist...

lol. Well if God chose arbitrarily based on nothing, like say he chose to condemn a fetus to hell in romans 9, and one to heaven. then we have major issues with God, and what he claims about himself.

God did chose you, based on his foreknowledge. he knew you before you were even born, from birth to life. everything you would do, This it is obvious he would know if you would respond to the gospel or if you would reject it if he gave you every opportunity to respond would he not?

He still gets the glory, you did nothing but trust him. he had to do all the work.

 

[jimmydiggs]

lol. Well if God chose arbitrarily based on nothing, like say he chose to condemn a fetus to hell in romans 9, and one to heaven. then we have major issues with God, and what he claims about himself.

Ephesians 1 tells ya how.

It's not totally arbitrary, but it has nothing to do with any qualities you have. Quite frankly, if he chose your fate based on what you have or do not have, you should be in hell. He should have put you to death the day you were born. All of humanity is in that boat.

God did chose you, based on his foreknowledge. he knew you before you were even born, from birth to life. everything you would do, This it is obvious he would know if you would respond to the gospel or if you would reject it if he gave you every opportunity to respond would he not?

Don't reduce it down to an enlightenment notion of foreknowledge, where God pulls out his telescope and looks ahead.

He still gets the glory, you did nothing but trust him.

Ah, so I must scrounge up some faith... a little from here, a little from there...

he had to do all the work.

Well, except the trusting part of course. Which, consequently is something I get to claim whether you intended to send that message or not.

Our faith doesn't even come from ourselves.


Hebrews 12:2
2 [a]fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[zone]

what does this have to do with being a calvanist?

1. To draw, to lead. (like a schoolmaster, who leads a child to class0

As I showed Above, God did lead. in all the ways he could. But he still requests that you chose to say yes or no..

Did not jesus say it is the spirit which gives life, the words I speak are spirit and they are truth? does not the scripture say the law is our schoolmaster (one of the way God draws) and many other things??

hi EG!

the OP is Re: Romans 9 Calvin vs freewill

so i just said i'm not a calvinist cuz it was in the title.

i'm not a calvinist, but i am a monergist
i do not believe we summon up faith on our own.
it's given to us.
and if Father is drawing men to Jesus, and Jesus said whoever Father gives Him He will save, when was the gift of faith given? did Father give us faith so we could believe and receive the gift of faith?

or did we have faith and then Father gave us faith?

i was blind and sick.
before i knew i knew The Lord, EG

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ephesians 1 tells ya how.

It's not totally arbitrary, but it has nothing to do with any qualities you have. Quite frankly, if he chose your fate based on what you have or do not have, you should be in hell. He should have put you to death the day you were born. All of humanity is in that boat.

I would agree 100 %

and yes, eph 1 does tell us how.

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[a] which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[b] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
when he did it and what it was called (chose, predestine etc)

What he predestined us to (eternal life etc)

what he did to draw us to him

and finally, the reason he chose us.

As I said, eph 1 says it clearly.

1. he chose us, and predestined us before the foundation of the world.
2. He made known to us his wisdom, and the means in which we can be saved
3. He gave us the opportunity to trust him, after we hear the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, he gave us all the things he predestined us to have.

free will is not removed paul made it clear. We heard it after God revealed it to us, and we chose to trust what God said.

Don't reduce it down to an enlightenment notion of foreknowledge, where God pulls out his telescope and looks ahead.

why not? does not God do all things this way? is this not how he can prophesy, can tell us things before they happen. and can lead us to where we need to be so we can do what he needs us to do? is this not how he gives us the tools we as individuals need to trust him (we all are not the same, what might work for one may not work for another) and all the things which proves he is God, and all the false Gods who cannot do this are false because they can not do these things? Why he sticks roadblocks in our way when we are doing or going someplace where we might be hurt etc etc??

Who said it is reducing it down? it does not reduce anything, it PROVES GODS OMNISCIENCE.

Ah, so I must scrounge up some faith... a little from here, a little from there...

how would this be a work. what are you doing that you can take credit for? God said I was guilty was guilty, God said I was condemned, God said I can do nothing, I was so helpless, he sent his son to take my punishment, because I was totally unable to do it myself. Do you trust me? or will you try to do it on your own?

where is the word I in the statement, it is all God. The pride would come from rejecting it and saying you do not need help, are not any of what God said you are, or tried to save yourself. not in trusting someone else to do all the work for you. You have an odd assumption of what it means to trust someone.

Well, except the trusting part of course. Which, consequently is something I get to claim whether you intended to send that message or not.

Oh it is? read above. also look at john 6. it is the work of God we believe in the one he sent. If God did not do the work, i would have nothing to trust in would I?

How can I trust something which is not real, or never happened? I can't. that is why it is not my work, but Gods.

Our faith doesn't even come from ourselves.

Nope. God revealed the truth to us, and helped us understand it. if he did not do this, we would have nothing to trust in would we?

Hebrews 12:2
2 [a]fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

amen. He did all the work. He endured the cross, He despised the shame, And he was risen by God and sits by the father to prove that God accepted his sacrifice in full.

Do you trust it?
Faith is the SUBSTANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR, the EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEE?